Gay Pride - Embarrassing or Empowering?

Plautus

And how they express themselves is so cringeworthy that it alienates me and many of my gay friends. Which answers your initial question, I believe.

I'm afraid that this is no substantive basis for calling off the whole event. It's a pity that you find it cringe-worthy, but this seems to be because ...

We must be looking at different photos.

You're juxtaposing bondage gear and er, those rather ordinary looking human beings. And that's a little unfair. Do the pictures lie? It's a diverse crowd and so far all I'm hearing, at best, is an argument that the dress code should be changed. Not that the event is entirely pointless as a result of Panti. Who I find funny. But you find her cringeworthy. Sheesh. I can't bridge the gap with you on that I'm afraid.

(ie: only a bit of fun Vs completely undignified and makes a mess of the town).

I'm willing to bet that the AH consensus is something like 'feck off and just enjoy the day' and a little less divisive than this parade seems to be.

Cavehill Red

Plautus wrote: »

I'm afraid that this is no substantive basis for calling off the whole event. It's a pity that you find it cringe-worthy, but this seems to be because ...

I don't recall suggesting it should be called off. I just see no purpose for it in its current incarnation. I feel it is detrimental to the cause of universal equality, in fact.

Plautus wrote: »

You're juxtaposing bondage gear and er, those rather ordinary looking human beings. And that's a little unfair. Do the pictures lie? It's a diverse crowd and so far all I'm hearing, at best, is an argument that the dress code should be changed. Not that the event is entirely pointless as a result of Panti. Who I find funny. But you find her cringeworthy. Sheesh. I can't bridge the gap with you on that I'm afraid.

Clearly we hold to differing definitions of what the word 'dignity' means.

Plautus wrote: »

I'm willing to bet that the AH consensus is something like 'feck off and just enjoy the day' and a little less divisive than this parade seems to be.

You'd be surprised. But that would involve actually going off and reading the debates before pronouncing opinions based on ignorance of them.

Plautus

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Clearly we hold to differing definitions of what the word 'dignity' means.

Clearly. Because, again, we're back to the bit where it's all Shirley Temple Bar with you, and less about the vast majority of the crowd at the event. I thought the pictures would save us many thousands of words on this topic.

You might find the drag to be in bad taste but most would say drag queens still have essential human dignity. Maybe not the same number of people find them funny, but that's your tough break.

And what are you saying then if you don't want the event called off or abandoned? You clearly think it's misguided. Are you arguing instead that it should be modified? You've described the event as alienating and embarrassing. Forgive me for working out the rest.

You'd be surprised. But that would involve actually going off and reading the debates before pronouncing opinions based on ignorance of them.

Call it an educated guess from my experience of this type of debate which I am encountering to the point of ad nauseum in recent months. Generally, no, people aren't consistent in criticising this event and then others like Paddy's day too. And the elephant in the room is non-normative sexuality.

In any event, for such a lacuna in my knowledge that would instantly put me to rights you can't be bothered pointing me to the thread.

Cavehill Red

Plautus wrote: »

Clearly. Because, again, we're back to the bit where it's all Shirley Temple Bar with you, and less about the vast majority of the crowd at the event. I thought the pictures would save us many thousands of words on this topic.

You suggested that the parade demonstrated people making points with dignity, then illustrated it with drag queens in bondage gear. So yes, we do have differing concepts of how one might make a point with dignity.

Plautus wrote: »

You might find the drag to be in bad taste but most would say drag queens still have essential human dignity. Maybe not the same number of people find them funny, but that's your tough break.

What's my 'tough break', exactly?

Plautus wrote: »

And what are you saying then if you don't want the event called off or abandoned? You clearly think it's misguided. Are you arguing instead that it should be modified? You've described the event as alienating and embarrassing. Forgive me for working out the rest.

I'm not arguing for anything. You asked who finds it alienating so I told you that I did, and so do many of my friends, some of whom are gay themselves, and I've comprehensively told you why.

Plautus wrote: »

Call it an educated guess from my experience of this type of debate which I am encountering to the point of ad nauseum in recent months. Generally, no, people aren't consistent in criticising this event and then others like Paddy's day too. And the elephant in the room is non-normative sexuality.

Really, do please explain to me how you're able to make a comparative study of threads on boards when you haven't read most of the ones you're speaking of? There isn't any form of public gathering that doesn't provoke differing opinion in here, be it a march against austerity or the Paddy's Day parade.

Plautus wrote: »

In any event, for such a lacuna in my knowledge that would instantly put me to rights you can't be bothered pointing me to the thread.

Top right of your screen you'll find a rectangle containing the words 'Search Boards.ie...'

Stercus Accidit

Plenty of liberal minded straight girls dress up in skimpy outfits and attend these events, just sayin...

Plautus

You suggested that the parade demonstrated people making points with dignity, then illustrated it with drag queens in bondage gear. So yes, we do have differing concepts of how one might make a point with dignity.

No, I didn't, I was using reductio ad absurdam. Yes, there are some 'stereotypical' bondage types at the parade. I was telling you that you were giving them greater weight than they deserve when the pictures show a relatively ordinary crowd for the most part. Otherwise, the drag acts deserve to be treated with dignity. Perhaps I didn't clarify enough.

What's my 'tough break', exactly?

That you're alienated by a drag act doing Madonna impressions, in all likelihood. That and for believing we should bear seriously in mind anyone who might look at this and suddenly start mistreating gays as a result.

People who hold back gay rights get their impetus from plenty of other sources. Let the people have their fun. I don't think Pride is setting anything back. I think it's sad that you think otherwise.

Really, do please explain to me how you're able to make a comparative study of threads on boards when you haven't read most of the ones you're speaking of?

I'm speaking for threads about gays and gay rights in general. Some of these threads were in AH, some in LGBT. Generally, most respondents complaining about Pride as 'flaunting' and 'rubbing it in your face' fall silent if someone argues analogously about Paddy's Day or a similar festival as 'flaunting' nationality. This is because the double standard becomes quite apparent to them. Presumably they'd otherwise be on the side of the revellers in the Paddy's day debates you mention.

Top right of your screen you'll find a rectangle containing the words 'Search Boards.ie...'

You're the one with the stake in disproving me here. Can you be bothered? If not, neither am I.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

orestes wrote: »

Bisexual, sado-masochist, half irish half English, immigrant, and ginger.

I want my own fukking parade

You go, girl!

Freddie59

man.about.town wrote: »

why cant we have a straight pride parade???

i dont see why they must have a gay pride parade, there is not much anti homosexuality left in ireland anymore as far as i can, we are a very accepting bunch.

Yep. I have a gay relation and she finds the whole gay 'pride' thing to be completely ridiculous. I agree fully.

Freddie59

orestes wrote: »

Someone asked earlier in thread when we will stop defining ourselves by our sexuality. How many people in this thread have said they have gay friends. How about just tyinking of them as friends?

Because it's relevant to the discussion at hand. That's why.

philologos

orestes wrote: »

Someone asked earlier in thread when we will stop defining ourselves by our sexuality. How many people in this thread have said they have gay friends. How about just tyinking of them as friends?

+1000.

donutheadhomer

rochey84 wrote: »

Its about achieving equal status, as it stands, gay people cannot get Married, or adopt children in the eyes of the state, Gay Pride is initally about that! When straight people are treated like second class citizens then maybe there will be a straight pride parade

There is no law against gay men getting married. They just have to marry women.

orestes

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You go, girl!

/clicks fingers

Freddie59 wrote: »

Because it's relevant to the discussion at hand. That's why.

No, it's not. That's exaxtly the point I'm trying to make. If people could just get their heads around the fact that sexuality is irrelevant then we wouldn't even have to have this discussion, and we wouldn't have any reason Pride parades.

Chuchoter

Imo its pointless to try and pretend sexuality is irrelevant. Its irrelevant if you're straight, but as a minority its an identity that people are always trying to ridicule and take away from you. Its OK for those identities to exist. We don't have to homogenize everything, just get over the fact that some people are different

MagicSean

crayolastereo wrote: »

Imo its pointless to try and pretend sexuality is irrelevant. Its irrelevant if you're straight, but as a minority its an identity that people are always trying to ridicule and take away from you. Its OK for those identities to exist. We don't have to homogenize everything, just get over the fact that some people are different

And how does a gay pride parade help this?

Chuchoter

Probably should have put a quote in there, that was directed at orestes.

In any case, I'm not a huge fan of pride. Its not political enough for me and it annoys me that the main representation of us is so complacent. The whole thing is a money making racket for the pubs/clubs in the area.

philologos

crayolastereo wrote: »

Imo its pointless to try and pretend sexuality is irrelevant. Its irrelevant if you're straight, but as a minority its an identity that people are always trying to ridicule and take away from you. Its OK for those identities to exist. We don't have to homogenize everything, just get over the fact that some people are different

Nobody said it is. What people are saying is that forming an identity around sexuality seems absurd. What does your sexuality tell me about you apart from that you have a sexual preference for men, women, both, or the more intricate details about what you find attractive. Telling someone I am a heterosexual hardly tells them anything about me.

Chuchoter

Orestes said it. I'm also constantly hearing slogan like 'heterosexual, homosexual..aren't we all just sexual?' and 'I just like people'. Theres actually a bit of a trend towards erasing identities like gay or lesbian.

philologos

crayolastereo wrote: »

Orestes said it. I'm also constantly hearing slogan like 'heterosexual, homosexual..aren't we all just sexual?' and 'I just like people'. Theres actually a bit of a trend towards erasing identities like gay or lesbian.

I think the idea of erasing the notion of sexuality as being an identity in and of itself isn't all that bad an idea.

Chuchoter

philologos wrote: »

I think the idea of erasing the notion of sexuality as being an identity in and of itself isn't all that bad an idea.

In and of itself, probably not, but we don't live in a vacuum. Sexuality, as just what it is, isn't much of an identity if you subscribe with the majority and be straight and life goes along swimmingly. If you're in the minority however (and as everyone is presumed straight until proven otherwise) sexuality manages to impinge on loads of other aspects of your life whether you want it to or not, thats how it becomes an identity. If we got rid of sexualities as identities, all you would end up with is a very heteronormative society where difference doesn't exist.

philologos

Even if I didn't I can't see how it is an identity other than to say I would be attracted to the same-sex. What would that tell you about me? Who I am as a person? What makes me X rather than Y? I'd like to think it would be in my personality, or in my heart (in the sense of fullness of being rather than anatomy) that would distinguish me from others as an individual. Sexuality would come pretty far down on the list for me even if it is significant in other respects.

Chuchoter

I think you are misunderstanding how minority identities work. Of course it tells you very little about someone, but it does give you some inkling as to prejudices they have faced and experiences they have been through. Almost all gay people will have had to fight to some degree with their sexuality, come out and then face the implications of that, and you have to come out all the time. These identities link you up to a community that has all faced the same thing.

Forest Master

I've never met a gay person who hasn't told me they're gay (or referred to themselves as gay by way of a comment or innuendo) within an hour of meeting them.

I don't see why is needs to define who they are.

ixoy

Forest Master wrote: »

I've never met a gay person who hasn't told me they're gay (or referred to themselves as gay by way of a comment or innuendo) within an hour of meeting them.

Correction: Some of the gay people you've met have told you they're gay within an hour of meeting them. It's highly unlikely that you know the sexuality of every person you've met.

Also curious how many people would you know are straight within an hour of meeting by way of them making comments about girls, boys, etc?

Forest Master

ixoy wrote: »

Also curious how many people would you know are straight within an hour of meeting by way of them making comments about girls, boys, etc?

Very few. It's not a popular topic of conversation.

Chuchoter

Obviously I have the brain of a teenage boy then, given the opportunity all I'd talk about is girls but I'm not out. :P