Fuel Prices

BrianD3

Great posts Sesshoumaru. It's a pity the table doesn't show average speed for each journey. But 130+ km for 2 euro @ 100 km/h is extremely impressive. I was under the impression that an electric car would give the equivalent of ~100 mpg at this speed but that works out at around 260 mpg equivalent. And if fuel increases in price more quickly than electricity does, then this equivalent economy figure will improve further.

Do you get the night rate or the day rate when charging at a public charge point during the day?

From what I've heard the ESB were not charging EV owners anything for using public charge points when they were first installed. I don't know if it was a deliberate incentive or if they just hadn't got their billing system organised at that time. Probably different now anyway.

n97 mini

BrianD3 wrote: »

Do you get the night rate or the day rate when charging at a public charge point during the day?

I asked about cost a few posts back.. they're still free.

bbk wrote:

Even with a national roll out of recharge points a national roll out of hydrogen would give an equal infrastructure to that of recharge based cars but with upsides already mentioned.

The major problem for hydrogen is the transportation and storage. Neither are easy or cheap and existing fuel stations may as well be bakeries when it comes to having the right facilities. These are two major major problems for hydrogen.

On the other hand, someone discovers or develops a new battery technology and all of a sudden the electric car has no problems, and the infrastructure costs are already very low.

Hydrogen is already on the backfoot. It's winning in terms of range, but it's losing in terms of fuel generation, fuel transportation and fuel storage.

eagerv

I cant understand the economics of Hydrogen. It takes vast amounts of energy from electricity or oil to produce a small amount of Hydrogen which in a car will be tranferred back to electricity again. Surely a battery has to be vastly more efficient. Future efficiencies certainly lie in battery design, I recall reading about Graphite Batteries which should be cheap to make and have very fast recharging times. I admire the Nissan Leaf, it would certainly work for about 99% of my needs.

W.Shakes-Beer

eagerv wrote: »

I cant understand the economics of Hydrogen. It takes vast amounts of energy from electricity or oil to produce a small amount of Hydrogen which in a car will be tranferred back to electricity again. Surely a battery has to be vastly more efficient. Future efficiencies certainly lie in battery design, I recall reading about Graphite Batteries which should be cheap to make and have very fast recharging times. I admire the Nissan Leaf, it would certainly work for about 99% of my needs.

Hydrogen fuel cells are whats in the pipelines for the future I think. Basically reversed electrolysis.

As you were saying about the large amount of energy needed to run electrolysis, it probably won't kick off though until the "norm" way of producing energy is by non-fossil means, which may be quite a while away yet.

But the idea of hydrogen fuel cells is amazing, very interesting and they are, on paper, extremely efficient, up to 70% efficient compared to petrol at about 20%. It'll just be a wait and see for the future!

Joe 90

BrianD3 wrote: »

Great posts Sesshoumaru. It's a pity the table doesn't show average speed for each journey. But 130+ km for 2 euro @ 100 km/h is extremely impressive. I was under the impression that an electric car would give the equivalent of ~100 mpg at this speed but that works out at around 260 mpg equivalent. And if fuel increases in price more quickly than electricity does, then this equivalent economy figure will improve further.

Do you get the night rate or the day rate when charging at a public charge point during the day?

From what I've heard the ESB were not charging EV owners anything for using public charge points when they were first installed. I don't know if it was a deliberate incentive or if they just hadn't got their billing system organised at that time. Probably different now anyway.

I suspect that the electric car may give the equivalent of somewhere near 100mpg in energy terms given that most of the energy wasting happens at the power station and along the transmission lines. However 100 mpg in energy terms whould probably be in the 260 mpg region in cash terms as about two thirds of the price you pay at the pumps will be tax..

Sesshoumaru

Joe 90 wrote: »

I suspect that the electric car may give the equivalent of somewhere near 100mpg in energy terms given that most of the energy wasting happens at the power station and along the transmission lines. However 100 mpg in energy terms whould probably be in the 260 mpg region in cash terms as about two thirds of the price you pay at the pumps will be tax..

Well here is a link from the SEAI on EV efficiency.

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Power_Station_to_Wheels/

Please bear in mind though, petrol or diesel doesn't just magic itself into a cars fuel tank. It has to be dug up from the ground or seabed as oil first. There are then a number of transportation steps and refining steps before it ever gets into an ICE car. All those steps are using energy.

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

Joe 90

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well here is a link from the SEAI on EV efficiency.

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Power_Station_to_Wheels/

Please bear in mind though, petrol or diesel doesn't just magic itself into a cars fuel tank. It has to be dug up from the ground or seabed as oil first. There are then a number of transportation steps and refining steps before it ever gets into an ICE car. All those steps are using energy.

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

More or less agrees with what I meant In fact, I would have expected the direct efficiency of the EV to be a bit better but overall the sort of thing I had in mind. Agreed as well the fuel doesn't just magic itself into the fuel tank but neither does whatever fuels the power station.

Overall, I would say that the EV has a future, just not yet. In computer terms it is at the stage of the original IBM PC, 4.77 Mhz 8088 with 256K of memory and one floppy drive for a couple of thousand $s. But look how far that has come in price performance in a third of a century.

eagerv

But the idea of hydrogen fuel cells is amazing, very interesting and they are, on paper, extremely efficient, up to 70% efficient compared to petrol at about 20%. It'll just be a wait and see for the future![/QUOTE]

Thats true and I would love to see Hydrogen in the future. Unfortunately Hydrogen is only an energy storage, ie it has to be made first and stored and thats where the inefficiencies lie at the moment.

Mc Love

Just seen this on twitter:
Brent crude oil price falls by almost $3 to $107.45 a barrel wonder will it mean anything for fuel prices

forfuxsake

Mc Love wrote: »

Just seen this on twitter:
Brent crude oil price falls by almost $3 to $107.45 a barrel wonder will it mean anything for fuel prices

yeah a 2 cent rise to cover the administrative cost of the price drop

eagerv

Dropping nicely today, Brent 105.71. Nymex future 83.89.

fryup

147.9 for petrol at my local, thats 4 cent down on last week

Got the weekly motorcheck price update txt, down to 145.68 petrol, 139.19 diesel. Usually a good indicator what direction prices are going.

coffin

W.Shakes-Beer wrote: »

Hydrogen fuel cells are whats in the pipelines for the future I think. Basically reversed electrolysis.

As you were saying about the large amount of energy needed to run electrolysis, it probably won't kick off though until the "norm" way of producing energy is by non-fossil means, which may be quite a while away yet.

But the idea of hydrogen fuel cells is amazing, very interesting and they are, on paper, extremely efficient, up to 70% efficient compared to petrol at about 20%. It'll just be a wait and see for the future!

Hey Guys, some interesting reading here. Just to let you know I am also a Nissan Leaf owner. I would agree with what Sess. has said on the car and indeed that it would not suit everyone's needs. I'd say it would only suit about 70% of the 2 million car drivers in Ireland given that 70% of people in Ireland drive less than 50km a day (ESB/SEAI)

BTW, I also was hoping that Hydrogen would take hold as a fuel cell vehicle however there were some disturbing features of hydrogen cars that I was unaware of until last year. Firstly, right now the range of a number of the real world test hydrogen cars is apparently just a few kilometres more than my production ready Leaf. Second, the Honda FCX Clarity costs $600 a month to rent and no one is allowed to buy it because the production cost of the car is somewhere between $800,000 and $1,000,000. Thirdly, hydrogen in the LA pump stations comes from fossil fuel sources and NOT electrolysis (go Shell!!) Fourth, hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are between 20 - 30% less efficient in the transfer of energy to motion than their current battery counterparts due to the loss of energy in the creation of the hydrogen and then its conversion to electrical energy. Fifth, there is even less of a hydrogen fuelling network in the world than there is of an charging network. Sixth, it is easier, cheaper and safer to establish an electric charging network than it is to establish a hydrogen duelling network.

Despite these issues, this does not mean that hydrogen can't be made to work. In fact, I sincerely hope they continue their research on hydrogen fuel cell and I hope they can make it work. But there are a number of issues to resolve and the proponents of hydrogen have just under 10 years to solve it. Why? In 2012 Nissan is launching a car with almost double the range of their 2011 Leaf. This battery technology is from 2009. My Leaf's battery technology is from 2007. Assuming this level of progress continues (and the research implies that it won't - it's likely to accelerate!) BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles) will match the capacity of ICE vehicles within the next decade. Within the next 15 years BEVs will outstrip ICEVs.

Perhaps within 15-20 years hydrogen cars will be ready to go. But apparently hydrogen cars have been only 15-20 years away since 1975! I think for now I will continue to drive my dinky range limited BEV that's larger than a Peugeot 307, cost me €40 to charge for 9 weeks of driving, has no gears and has better torque than that Audi TT I left behind on the motorway the first day I drove it!

Yep, once you go electric, you never go back!

fryup

coffin wrote: »

Yep, once you go electric, you never go back!

..to them again, cause there so impractical :pac:

whiterebel

Just back from Brittany in France. Last week the fill was diesel @ €1.27/l. Petrol €1.51-1.53. France is normally the same or more expensive when we go over, but it looks to me like someone in the chain here is gouging the diesel prices because of the recent popularity of the oil burners.

Absurdum

whiterebel wrote: »

Just back from Brittany in France. Last week the fill was diesel @ €1.27/l. Petrol €1.51-1.53. France is normally the same or more expensive when we go over, but it looks to me like someone in the chain here is gouging the diesel prices because of the recent popularity of the oil burners.

I was over there too in June, the petrol prices can vary by up to 30c within a couple of kilometers, tis mad.

Mycroft H

Diesel has fallen back to 138.9 in caragh applegreen

fryup

155.9 for unleaded at my (texaco) local

when is it gonna end??

pa990

rome last week

171.9 diesel
181.4 petrol

Sobanek

pa990 wrote: »

rome last week

171.9 diesel
181.4 petrol

Poland before new year's

5.41 PLN for 95 Octane unleaded (€1.21)
5.56 PLN for Diesel (€1.24)

And their ROAD TAX is included in the price as well.

el diablo

Sobanek wrote: »

Poland before new year's

5.41 PLN for 95 Octane unleaded (€1.21)
5.56 PLN for Diesel (€1.24)

And their ROAD TAX is included in the price as well.

Polish salaries quite a bit smaller than Irish salaries though. So €1.21 is not cheap either.

voojeq

1 hour of work = 2 liters of petrol in Poland

in Ireland its around 10 liters for 1 hour of work =]

wonder how does it look like in other countries?

Stinicker

voojeq wrote: »

1 hour of work = 2 liters of petrol in Poland

in Ireland its around 10 liters for 1 hour of work =]

wonder how does it look like in other countries?

Except in Ireland there is no work so 3 litres of Petrol is equal to about 1 hours "dole" pay equivalent, add into the massive cost of everything here and you'll find a person on an average salary in Poland is paying a lower percentage of his income for goods and services unlike the half a million people in Ireland whom are now dole dependent.

el diablo

Stinicker wrote: »

Except in Ireland there is no work so 3 litres of Petrol is equal to about 1 hours "dole" pay equivalent, add into the massive cost of everything here and you'll find a person on an average salary in Poland is paying a lower percentage of his income for goods and services unlike the half a million people in Ireland whom are now dole dependent.

Horseshít. :rolleyes: Almost 86% of people are working.

voojeq

Stinicker wrote: »

Except in Ireland there is no work so 3 litres of Petrol is equal to about 1 hours "dole" pay equivalent, add into the massive cost of everything here and you'll find a person on an average salary in Poland is paying a lower percentage of his income for goods and services unlike the half a million people in Ireland whom are now dole dependent.

yeah but when you're on dole in Poland you cant even afford the food, thats why noone is on it and everyone's working

there's work in Ireland you just have to find it, I agree it isnt that easy as it was before but getting a proper job here is still possible

are you looking for anything specific btw? IT sector seems very healthy

gbee

el diablo wrote: »

Horseshít. :rolleyes: Almost 86% of people are working.

Not really an attributable figure. The reality is that when we had "100%" employment we had some 500% more in employment, close to 8 million and some believed the real figure was closer to 12 million including the 'unofficial' employed.

The reality is that the percentage burden is greater now with 1.6 million employed supporting some .8 million unemployed PLUS ALL the Civil Service. :cool:

heate

A litre of petrol here in Zurich runs CHF1.80(for 95 unleaded) and diesel is CHF1.90.
There is no minimum wage per se but not many (00000.1%) earn less than 25chf an hour.
So a tank in I don't know a golf (55l) Is 4 hours 'work'

Absurdum

Sobanek wrote: »

And their ROAD TAX is included in the price as well.

it's called Motorski Tax :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sobanek

Absurdum wrote: »

it's called Motorski Tax :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's called Podatek Drogowy but whatever