The Legacy of Brian Lenihan

gandalf

calvin clean wrote: »

Just because you get cancer doesn't mean you have to stop living. Keeping things as normal as possible can for some be the best way to cope with cancer as i have seen with Brian who is a relative and with my own mother who is on her last legs with it. It don't work for everybody of course but i saw very little change in Brian's attitude to life, work and his duty since his diagnosis.

Again my condolences on the loss of your relative. I remember at the time of the announcement that Brian Lenihan had cancer other cancer sufferers and survivors were interviewed about the treatment that he would be getting saying that they would be extremely surprised if he carried on because of the toll it takes from you. They said it would be doubly the case with a high pressure job like the Minister for Finance.

KINGVictor wrote: »

In regard to his frame of mind, I think you do him a lot of disservice to even suggest he wasnt in the right frame of mind to carry out his duties, I think he is actually an inspiration to people with ailments on how to relentlessly and courageously move on irrespective of physical constraints.

I think it is a pertinent question about their frame of mind when someone is in pain from what we know now was a terminal illness and under going extreme treatment to try and re-mediate it. At best it certainly would not help and at worst well it could have adversely effected his judgement.

Another interesting view held by some posters is the fact that some people have committed suicide because of the current economic crises...very tragic!!, but the truth is that people were killing themselves at the height of the boom also when money was hardly scarce. I think that has to do with mental conditions rather than economic implications. One could indeed argue that if they were strong minded then there would be no need to kill themselves. Far more people in worse economic conditions that overcome the challenges.

I don't recall seeing suicide being mentioned but I did skip over a couple of pages. I would not put any suicides at the feet of Brian Lenihan, those people choose to end their own lives.

I would look at him with an accusing finger along with the rest of the cabinets in the FF led governments when I look at my 1 year old son and the future he has. How much debt has he been saddled with because of the decisions of the previous governments, how will his education be effected, how will his health be effected, will he have a future in this country when he hits adulthood? That is the real legacy of the previous Governments of which Brian Lenihan was a leading cog in the machine.

later10 wrote: »

Irresponsible to the country - ok, that is debatable. But irresponsible to his family? Where do you get off, making condemnations of politicians - or anybody - over how they interact with their families? It was not a million years ago that another great FF luminary was expressing cynicism over Mary Robinson and her family time. Seriously, I think you need to leave it out.

If my father was diagnosed with a serious cancer like Brian Lenihan and he worked in a high pressure job like the Minister for Finance I would have expected him to take a leave of absence while he received treatment and to spend as much time with his family.

There is no foundation for this sort of statement. Are you suggesting that those who are seriously ill or recovering from cancer should not be allowed work in positions of significant authority?

Yes I do actually believe that if you are receiving treatment that is severe and can effect you dramatically both physically and mentally that you should not be in a position where rash decisions can have detrimental effects on a large number of people.

Brian Lenihan was incompetent in Finance long before his cancer. Arguably, approaching one’s mortality is more likely to concentrate the mind on one’s track record, but I feel that even going into the point too deeply would be to entertain the above quote far more than it deserves.

That kind of proves my point doesn't it. He may have been desperate to redeem his poor showing in Finance and went for what the Americans call a "Hail Mary Pass" and made decisions accordingly with the disastrous outcome we have today.

ebbsy

He did'nt have the brains for such a situation, hence we are now the plaything of Europe.

Well done Brian.

rodento

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think you'll find that in the black and white world, those are 'parasites', because they knew they'd be getting a return "at our expense". 'Twas the other ones were 'gamblers', but all bondholders are bad.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You mean even the Irish Public who purchase from government bond schemes

Inverse to the power of one!

Di0genes wrote: »

Might I ask where and when we start applying personal responsibility for a person's misdeeds. The man held the 2nd highest office in the land, was in charge of the budget, and the ministry for finance, and yet you see him as a victim?

Nah, I'm still holding him responsible, I'm just saying that well intentioned tend to suffer around FF. He still made his choice to stick with the them and for that he was responsible.

rodento

Have to say i am saddenned by the lack of intelligence that is shown by people who have to play the blame game

We could balme the EU and ECB for the cheap credit available

We could blame the public for taking out loans and way over extending themselves

We could blame Brian Lenihan for bailing out Anglo Irish Bank but I think we should really consider what would have happenned if he didn't.

How many banks would have failed, if anglo colapsed, what would have happenned to the irish & european economies.

I personally think that Brian Lenihan saved use from a worse fate and thats how history will judge him

May he rest in peace

later12

gandalf wrote: »

If my father was diagnosed with a serious cancer like Brian Lenihan and he worked in a high pressure job like the Minister for Finance I would have expected him to take a leave of absence while he received treatment and to spend as much time with his family.

It would be reasonable to say such a thing of your father but unless you are Tom or Claire Lenihan, or close to their family, frankly I dont think it is any of your - or our - business.
Whether in cancer or in full health, you have no business telling an individual how to be a good parent if you know nothing of this man and his personal, family life, let alone preaching on how he ought to have spent his final days. Do you not see how arrogant and inappropriate that is? What makes any of it your business?

PeterIanStaker

I'd be banned in a nanosecond if I said what was on my mind.

So use your imagination.

whoopdedoo

he turned a corner?

gizmo555

Pal wrote: »

Brian Lenihan went to great length to understand how finance works.

Yeah, he visited David McWilliams in the middle of the night . . .

On a personal level, of course its a matter of great regret that anyone dies so young and of such a dreadful illness.

On a political level, however, Lenihan was the epitome of the Peter Principle. He was a very good Minister for Justice - where his legal education and experience suited him to the role. Then he was promoted to the level of his own incompetence in Finance, an area in which he was hopelessly out of his depth. There, his barrister's training was part of the problem, because it helped him to sound so confident and plausible no matter what nonsense he was peddling.

There's a lot of hogwash being written now about how Lenihan's legacy won't be clear for years. On the contrary, it's already clear as day that in terms of the negative consequences for the state and the Irish people, his was hands down the most disastrous ever appointment to cabinet, bar none.

steelcityblues

Thought this was an amusing leak from WikiLeaks released only the other day.

To all of the Lenihan defenders, continue to believe he did the 'best he could after reading this, if you want.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/wikileaks/top-diplomat-bemused-by-turned-the-corner-speech-2664949.html

AMERICA'S top diplomat in Ireland was left bemused by Brian Lenihan's infamous "we have turned a corner" budget speech, a leaked US embassy cable reveals.

Ambassador Dan Rooney said it was "a mystery" why the then Finance Minister had made such an upbeat pronouncement.

In a 'confidential' dispatch to the office of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, the diplomat wondered if Mr Lenihan had got carried away with himself or if his speechwriter had made a terrible mistake

later12

steelcityblues wrote: »

To all of the Lenihan defenders, continue to believe he did the 'best he could after reading this, if you want.

The reaction of the US ambassador to the turning a corner speech proves that Lenihan did not do his best? Apart from showing that the US ambassador was as bemused as many Irish people at the turning a corner speech, what are you actually getting at?

For the record, I actually take turning a corner to mean a change in direction. It is not the same as actually suggesting that one has merrily crossed the finish line. If anything, you could criticise his comment that the worst is over. However in the context of the budget speech in 2009, turning a corner, i.e. changing the fiscal direction of the state and setting about on the hard road to recovery, seems like it was a fair enough comment to be honest.

steelcityblues

later10 wrote: »

The reaction of the US ambassador to the turning a corner speech proves that Lenihan did not do his best? Apart from showing that the US ambassador was as bemused as many Irish people at the turning a corner speech, what are you actually getting at?

For the record, I actually take turning a corner to mean a change in direction. It is not the same as actually suggesting that one has merrily crossed the finish line. If anything, you could criticise his comment that the worst is over. However in the context of the budget speech in 2009, turning a corner, i.e. changing the fiscal direction of the state and setting about on the hard road to recovery, seems like it was a fair enough comment to be honest.

Wow! You would make a 'good' director of elections for a party with that kind of justification for what is simply waffle.

I think it goes to prove that powerful figures from other nations, where laughing behind the backs at the 'thick paddies' and the government's inept handling of this precarious situation. Most of his embassy colleagues seemed to be just as bemused, but they would know nothing, right? Highly significant, I would've thought.

Why too were they taking the advice from the likes of Gurdgiev and Power, when Lenihan and his dept. never took them on board?

CiaranC

later10 wrote: »

For the record, I actually take turning a corner to mean a change in direction.

Like a change in direction for the worse, yeah! It all makes sense now, thanks later10!

rodento

He could have put his head in his hands and told us we are all doomed, but he didn't. He gave and offered hope and set us on a path out of the difficulties we are in

steelcityblues

rodento wrote: »

He could have put his head in his hands and told us we are all doomed, but he didn't. He gave and offered hope and set us on a path out of the difficulties we are in

Because promoting false hope over honesty is what we should want from our politicians. :rolleyes:

DexyDrain

Personally I think you would have to have a very shallow level of analysis not to get what Lenihan meant, Ireland regained a trade surplus, our balance of payments was moving towards a predicted surplus (which we did achieve), exports were up and we had rebounded from a huge drop in GDP in one year to zero growth the next and projected growth over the next two years. That in anyones estimation is remarkable in such crises given we have no currency or interest rate controls and pretty much negligible natural resources. Given how things could have placed us into third world territory, these indications would say to me a corner had been turned, not all of us have fairytale endings in mind, just keeping our heads above water and paying our way was something to be very glad for.

Sand

He'll be remembered as a man who inherited his fathers seat like a family heirloom. A politician who rose through the ranks in Fianna Fail through being unremarkable and inoffensive. And a green, inexperienced and woefully incompetent MoF - who didnt even read the briefs given to him - at a time when we never needed competent leadership more. The paragon of Irish political mediocrity.

He lacked the competence to understand the rammifications of the policies he was embarking on, or lacked the courage to oppose the disastrous policies pursued.

If you want a true measure of Lenihans record in office, its that Iceland ( of Iceland! Iceland! fame) are already back in the markets raising bonds at tolerable rates of interest. And thank to Lenihans policies, Ireland are years, perhaps a decade or more, from that.

later12

steelcityblues wrote: »

I think it goes to prove that powerful figures from other nations, where laughing behind the backs at the 'thick paddies

Sounds a bit paranoid tbh. Do you laugh at 'thick wogs' in a Greek context? I should hope not. It is not evident at all that the US ambassador was laughing at 'thick paddies' - he was bemused by the positive pronouncements of the Irish Minister for Finance. So leave the drama out.

BrianD

Personally, I think he was the one of the few in Dail Eireann that you could describe as a good politician and the makings of a good future leader.

Yes, he was a member of the party that presided over and fed the Celtic Tiger years and then inherited the reins when the sh1t hit the fan. Not much he could do then. Having said that FG and Labour quietly went along with the Celtic Tiger years both in the Dail and at local level - diveying up the rezonings amongst their mates and reinforcing bad decisions from central government.

Unfortunately, his time came when the country was out of control and were really being run by the IMF.

As for this: "AMERICA'S top diplomat in Ireland was left bemused by Brian Lenihan's infamous "we have turned a corner" budget speech, a leaked US embassy cable reveals."

i wouldn't mind what the Yanks are doing, the root cause of the worlds financial problems lie in American legislation. What did Obama do with his wayward bankers - give them jobs in government. Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind.

rodento

steelcityblues wrote: »

Because promoting false hope over honesty is what we should want from our politicians. :rolleyes:

Just how naive are some people

Are you saying that it was in the national interest for the minister of finance to tell everyone that Anglo & Irish Nationwide where are the verge of colapse,the state would have to nationalise AIB and the IMF may have to come in

steelcityblues

rodento wrote: »

Just how naive are some people

Are you saying that it was in the national interest for the minister of finance to tell everyone that Anglo & Irish Nationwide where are the verge of colapse,the state would have to nationalise AIB and the IMF may have to come in

It is called transparency - I would get fired in pretty much any other job if I didn't show this to either colleagues, consumers or customers.

Why should he have been any different?

raymon

later10 wrote: »

For the record, I actually take turning a corner to mean a change in direction. It is not the same as actually suggesting that one has merrily crossed the finish line. If anything, you could criticise his comment that the worst is over. However in the context of the budget speech in 2009, turning a corner, i.e. changing the fiscal direction of the state and setting about on the hard road to recovery, seems like it was a fair enough comment to be honest.

Later10 , your posts are really making no sense . do you actually read your posts before posting?

I mentioned in another thread that before attacking others you should do some research or at least get a dictionary. they are not expensive

To turn a corner has a specific meaning
"To advance beyond a difficult stage in a project, or in life."
It does not mean to go in a different direction

Shea O'Meara

BrianD wrote: »

Personally, I think he was the one of the few in Dail Eireann that you could describe as a good politician and the makings of a good future leader.

Well a perfect FFail politician, yes.

BrianD wrote: »

Yes, he was a member of the party that presided over and fed the Celtic Tiger years and then inherited the reins when the sh1t hit the fan. Not much he could do then. Having said that FG and Labour quietly went along with the Celtic Tiger years both in the Dail and at local level - diveying up the rezonings amongst their mates and reinforcing bad decisions from central government.

Unfortunately, his time came when the country was out of control and were really being run by the IMF.

That is a complete fallacy.
To be true the bould Brian, (a mere member of FFail by happenstance) was at the coal face working for every Irish man & woman, with his head down, (possibly in the sand?) doing good when ever he was let. Then when those people, we are to believe, with which he had little dealings, say or sway over, finally gave patriotic Brian his time to shine, they knobbled him and left him holding the bag......eh, nonsense.
If there is even a grain of truth to what you and others have posted along that theme, it means he was useless and pretty much mute for his entire career, untill he got burdened, that or the more realistic idea that he was simply a waste of space as regards the affairs of the Irish people.

RMD

He might have made the wrong decision, but I'd like the see many of the political geniuses on here who have an unending amount of abuse for him perform better considering the circumstances he was facing.

It's very easy to piss about and complain, but very few actually offer a better solution. Typical of this country to be honest.

michael999999

Fianna fail-crooked bankers-better built by Mc Namara is why the country is where it is today. Brian lenihan was in the thick of it fron the start.

swordofislam

later10 wrote: »

It would be reasonable to say such a thing of your father but unless you are Tom or Claire Lenihan, or close to their family, frankly I dont think it is any of your - or our - business.

It is a terrible pity that he didn't spend his last two years with his family.

His father said that "We can't all live on a small island" Lenihan did his damndest to prove his father right.

swordofislam

RMD wrote: »

very few actually offer a better solution.

Fine Gael offered a better solution immediately.
Doing nothing would have been better.

RMD wrote: »

Typical of this country to be honest.

Kissing up to your betters is typical of this country to be sure.

Sand

He might have made the wrong decision, but I'd like the see many of the political geniuses on here who have an unending amount of abuse for him perform better considering the circumstances he was facing.

It's very easy to piss about and complain, but very few actually offer a better solution. Typical of this country to be honest.

Deflection in the face of reasoned criticism. Indeed, typical of this country.

later12

raymon wrote: »

To turn a corner has a specific meaning
"To advance beyond a difficult stage in a project, or in life."
It does not mean to go in a different direction

Sigh.

There are a great many interpretations of 'turning a corner'. One could mean it to say that one has passed a critical or difficult stage, yes; one could also mean it to say that one has changed direction, especially exchanging a deleterious route for a more preferable direction.

Of course, I am sure nothing is ever preferable with some people, thing only ever get worse <insert miserable face>.

Like I said, the reasonable criticism could be said to have been of the term "The worst is over". Criticism of turning corners is pretty vague, to be honest.

raymon

later10 wrote: »

Sigh.

There are a great many interpretations of 'turning a corner'. One could mean it to say that one has passed a critical or difficult stage, yes; one could also mean it to say that one has changed direction, especially exchanging a deleterious route for a more preferable direction.

Of course, I am sure nothing is ever preferable with some people, thing only ever get worse <insert miserable face>.

Like I said, the reasonable criticism could be said to have been of the term "The worst is over". Criticism of turning corners is pretty vague, to be honest.

If you are struggling with the meaning of something do a bit of research, before launching into an attack on other posters. That's all I'm saying.

Reach out and seek help