The Legacy of Brian Lenihan

Inverse to the power of one!

Godge wrote: »

I am a constituent of Brian Lenihan's and in dealings with him in Dublin West (when he was still a backbencher), I found him decent approachable and listened to my concerns.

He was a disastorous appointment as Minister for Finance and he did great damage to this country (probably fifth in terms of damage behind Haughey, DeValera, Ahern and Cowen). We recovered from the damage inflicted by DeValera and Haughey and hopefully we will recover again.

However, despite that damage, Lenihan was not corrupt like a Haughey or Ahern or a complete cowardly imbecile like Cowen. Neither can he be classed as a Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor or George Redmond who profited themselves through public service. In fact he was the opposite. He was a man who gave up a potentially extremely lucrative career as a barrister to go into public service and he did it for the best of reasons - to serve the public. Unfortunately, it is an understatement to say he was not very good at it. just as DeValera's heart may have been in the right place, so was Brian Lenihan's.

You know, the closest public figure I can think of is Avram Grant at West Ham. Avram Grant came into a situation where a football club had spent beyond its means through irresponsible ownership and management and he needed to get every decision right to save West Ham. He made every decision wrong and West Ham got relegated. The fact that he was completely incompetent as a football coach didn't stop people from saying "but he is a decent man".

In the same way, while I never voted for Brian Lenihan and thought he was one of the worst Finance Ministers we ever had (Ahern, Cowen, Gene Fitzgerald - anyone remember him and the guy who cut pensions in the 1930s would also feature in that contest), I have to say rest in peace in view of the fact that he did his best for the best reasons despite the fact that through no fault of his own, he was picked to do a job he was not capable of.

This, he's dead, rip and sympathies with his family, but won't eulogize his time in office. He was good intentioned in bad company with bad timing, he sacrificed his health for his sense of responsibility which is admirable, but given the circumstances it might have been better for us were he still alive now and not minister of finance back then.

In his own right yet another victim of "the party".

Di0genes

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

This, he's dead, rip and sympathies with his family, but won't eulogize his time in office. He was good intentioned in bad company with bad timing, he sacrificed his health for his sense of responsibility which is admirable, but given the circumstances it might have been better for us were he still alive now and not minister of finance back then.

In his own right yet another victim of "the party".

Might I ask where and when we start applying personal responsibility for a person's misdeeds. The man held the 2nd highest office in the land, was in charge of the budget, and the ministry for finance, and yet you see him as a victim?

later12

Olivia O Laoire had an interesting and personal tribute to Brian Lenihan on RTE Drivetime there about half an hour ago... should be online later. Interesting to hear that kind of personal reflection on the man from those who knew him closely in a professional context, and cannot be accused of being FF sycophants.

ardmacha

I think Lenihan's position is akin to a goalie that drops the ball and who gets blamed for losing the game when in reality the real problem was the outfield losing the ball and the goalkeeper being left in an impossible position. But people remember the goalkeeper and not the player who lost the ball when showboating. The problem lay with the team and with his predecessors.
Those who came since have maintained the guarantee, so it is not a simple matter.

I do wonder about one thing. I do not believe Lenihan was deliberately trying to ruin the State. But as a lawyer I would have expected him to do as a lawyers do and draft a careful contract. The banks lied to him through their teeth, I would have expected some clause in the deal that ensured that the bets were off if there was any deception or perhaps have the bankers give a personal guarantee based on their pensions.

efb

Posted this earlier in the AH thread seems more appropriate here:
RIP Brian Lenihan.

While your fellow erstwhile FF minsters and even Taoiseach ran like rats deserting a sinking ship with suddenly remembered ailments and desire to become better acquainted with their own family, you stood up to be counted and faced the ire of the electorate despite your terminal condition.

You tried your best to deal with the financial mess you inherited and two positive things I remember from that poison chalice of a ministerial tenure was facing down Cowen and the PSU's as they laughably wanted unpaid annual leave rather than the necessary paycut, which you swiftly imposed casting aside the nonsense.

Also while the IMF and ECB were here you were trying to get them to separate the banking debt from the national debt, but were out manoeuvred by Houlahan, who was accused later of acting in the ECB's interests first.

The thing that you will be most critically judged for is the Bank Guarentee, which proved very effective at the time, and wrongfooted the EU and the British and saved our banks from almost immediate insolvency. But as later developed the banks did not provide you with all the facts and your mistake was accepting the position they offered as the truth.

Brian Lenihan RIP

P_1

Brian Lenihan, not too sure how the history books may judge him and how most may remember him when they look at their pay packets but fair balls to him for sticking to the job during the worst. The results of the Dublin West by-election will be interesting to see.

Icepick

efb wrote: »

You tried your best to deal with the financial mess

You don't realize this is actually criticism?

Brian Lenihan, not too sure how the history books may judge him and how most may remember him when they look at their pay packets but fair balls to him for sticking to the job during the worst.

How is this quality admirable in itself? Bin Laden did the same thing so fair balls to him too?

saintsaltynuts

Too soon for a thread like this he's not even dead in his grave and people are ganging up.How about people show a bit of respect please.

P_1

Icepick wrote: »

How is this quality admirable in itself? Bin Laden did the same thing so fair balls to him too?

What I meant was that after his diagnosis he had every right to leave public life and concentrate on spending his last with his family or to complete his 'bucket list'. The fact that he didn't and chose to continue serving the public (though in a misguided fashion) should stand as credit to the man.

Di0genes

saintsaltynuts wrote: »

Too soon for a thread like this he's not even dead in his grave and people are ganging up.How about people show a bit of respect please.

It's discussing the political legacy of a man who managed the finances of this country as we descended into a financial disaster that our children will be paying for.

If you want trite platitudes see AH.

Pal

jmayo wrote: »

I couldn't care whether he is alive or dead tonight.
.

You call comments like that discussing political legacy ?

Shea O'Meara

When someone well known to the public, famous, of note dies we can't help but feel a connection.
For those of us who feel such a persons passing automatically puts said person in the same regard as a saint, or are just plain sensitive...should go to the condolences thread, (which has little place in the politics forum in my view).
As for Lenihan's legacy, Cowen has a point, but possibly not in as a good a light as he believes, but Lenihan's true legacy and contribution will come out in time.
The man was put in a tough spot, but let us not forget he was happy to be affiliated, whole heartedly support and in some cases befriend those who created the tough spot. Also, may I remind the more sensitive posters, it's tougher and will continue to be so for those of us not fortunate enough to have a ministerial salary and or pension(s).
I believe there was corruption and a defrauding of the state at the heart of all this and during his tenure as Finance Minister his role was not one of tenacity, or patriotism, (the suggestion an insult) but one of making sure 'friends' of his government and colleagues had sufficient time to shred the paperwork and man the last lifeboats before the IMF had a look at the 'true' books.
I would add the fact that this and, after reflection, putting his hat in the ring for party leader, shows more a brass neck then any redeeming character traits.
I would only wonder has he followed an earlier but similar path to the end we saw for Haughey by passing before the charges are compiled and put forward.
My only thought regarding his untimely passing is that should accusations and charges come forth, apologists can cry fowl because he's dead and this will serve to cover the asses of those involved who still walk amoungst us.

Shea O'Meara

efb wrote: »

Posted this earlier in the AH thread seems more appropriate here:
RIP Brian Lenihan.

While your fellow erstwhile FF minsters and even Taoiseach ran like rats deserting a sinking ship with suddenly remembered ailments and desire to become better acquainted with their own family, you stood up to be counted and faced the ire of the electorate despite your terminal condition.

You tried your best to deal with the financial mess you inherited and two positive things I remember from that poison chalice of a ministerial tenure was facing down Cowen and the PSU's as they laughably wanted unpaid annual leave rather than the necessary paycut, which you swiftly imposed casting aside the nonsense.

Also while the IMF and ECB were here you were trying to get them to separate the banking debt from the national debt, but were out manoeuvred by Houlahan, who was accused later of acting in the ECB's interests first.

The thing that you will be most critically judged for is the Bank Guarentee, which proved very effective at the time, and wrongfooted the EU and the British and saved our banks from almost immediate insolvency. But as later developed the banks did not provide you with all the facts and your mistake was accepting the position they offered as the truth.

Brian Lenihan RIP

I cannot disagree more. Which FFail branch are you affiliated with? Go to the condolences thread or back to AH with this manure.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Paddy De Plasterer

Sad death of a young man who had a lot of talent. I did not agree with his bank guarantee especially with Anglo, though he may have been misled by banks, but he and Biffo should not have had a gun put to their heads in the middle of the night.

Wolfe Tone

Ah he is dead so he is, to some, some sort of hero who did his best.

We would have all been better off if he had have packed it in and spent the time with his family rather than destroying this country.

Its sad that he is dead, sad that he leaves behind his family, I have a ton on sympathy for them, but he was a terrible TD, terrible minister and played a huge role along with his cronies in destroying this country. That must not be forgotten.

What are the odds on his brother running in the bye election?

gandalf

The man was part of the FF Governments who have caused the ruination of this country and was directly responsible for the disastrous bank guarantee scheme.

I also disagree with those that say he was brave to continue on after his diagnosis with cancer. I believe he was arrogant and irresponsible both to his family and the country for carrying on. I certainly do not believe he was in the right frame of mind to make sound decisions on the financial future of this country. If Cowen was a proper leader he should have insisted that his friend take a leave of absence but we already know what a spineless poor leader he was.

steelcityblues

gandalf wrote: »

The man was part of the FF Governments who have caused the ruination of this country and was directly responsible for the disastrous bank guarantee scheme.

I also disagree with those that say he was brave to continue on after his diagnosis with cancer. I believe he was arrogant and irresponsible both to his family and the country for carrying on. I certainly do not believe he was in the right frame of mind to make sound decisions on the financial future of this country. If Cowen was a proper leader he should have insisted that his friend take a leave of absence but we already know what a spineless poor leader he was.

Well said. I think too many of the media confused his daily job with his personal struggle, and went too light on him as a result.

calvin clean

I think its gas the way the Irish blame Lenihan for their downfall. He wasn't the one spending 400k on a 2 bed in Tallaght, driving a lexus on credit and happy spending 3.50 a pop on innocent smoothies every morning. The man was handed the sh1test job in Europe and manned up to it

calvin clean

gandalf wrote: »

The man was part of the FF Governments who have caused the ruination of this country and was directly responsible for the disastrous bank guarantee scheme.

I also disagree with those that say he was brave to continue on after his diagnosis with cancer. I believe he was arrogant and irresponsible both to his family and the country for carrying on. I certainly do not believe he was in the right frame of mind to make sound decisions on the financial future of this country. If Cowen was a proper leader he should have insisted that his friend take a leave of absence but we already know what a spineless poor leader he was.

Just because you get cancer doesn't mean you have to stop living. Keeping things as normal as possible can for some be the best way to cope with cancer as i have seen with Brian who is a relative and with my own mother who is on her last legs with it. It don't work for everybody of course but i saw very little change in Brian's attitude to life, work and his duty since his diagnosis.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

While you are certainly correct to point out a dismal economic track record amongst successive Governments, we cannot automatically rule out individual deficiencies altogether. It is quite likely, in my opinion, that both individual professional failures were still a very strong feature of these Governments.

As long as we maintain a political system that allows a cloistered cabinet to make monumental decisions in the dead of night without meaningful parliamentary, senatorial, presidential, or constitutional protections, we will continue to suffer the blunders of our FitzGeralds, Haugheys, Aherns, McCreevys, Cowens, and Lenihans.

I dont fully agree. I am all for cloistered meetings of our political representatives so long as (i) they make decisions that are ultimately independent of special interest groups - that ought to be the point of being cloistered (although I accept it is not always so) and (ii) they communicate these decisions, citing the reasoning behind these decisions with reference, perhaps, to experimental case studies or some form of evidence.

On the issue of public/parliamentary consultation -
Part of the problem with these ultimately ruinous decisions has been selective input, and because speaking time is a finite thing, input will always be selective. You speak of the Government being cloistered away in the dead of the night, but as far as I can see, the Government has always had a long, long line of bedfellows.

If, on September 30th 2008, it had been Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen on a conference call to Europe, with their cabinet in the next room, and all taking independent legal and economic advice, we might never have been faced with a bank guarantee that was as extensive and as unilateral as it turned out to be.

Situations like that which existed around September 2008 are not helped by uninformed senators and parliamentarians sticking their noses in for the sake of political attention seeking, ego construction or cheap point scoring.

On the second issue, of communicating decisions -
What really aggravates people is asymmetric information. We do not necessarily care that clear decisions are made as long as the decision is communicated and a clear, logical basis for the decision is supplied... who knows, someone might even buy a subscription to JSTOR.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

That is a great sentiment, but unfortunately it probably applies to Irish people as much as, or more than, their Governments.

Hotblack Desiato

thebman wrote: »

It is a shame he didn't live to see Ireland survive his mistakes at the time and get out of this mess.

Sometimes, I wonder whether any of us will.

KINGVictor

gandalf wrote: »

The man was part of the FF Governments who have caused the ruination of this country and was directly responsible for the disastrous bank guarantee scheme.

I also disagree with those that say he was brave to continue on after his diagnosis with cancer. I believe he was arrogant and irresponsible both to his family and the country for carrying on. I certainly do not believe he was in the right frame of mind to make sound decisions on the financial future of this country. If Cowen was a proper leader he should have insisted that his friend take a leave of absence but we already know what a spineless poor leader he was.

First off I'd like to say RIP Brian Lenihan, I think he was a desent man.

In relation to your post, I agree with you he was part of the FF establishment that caused a lot of Ireland's economic woes, and like you rightly pointed out he was directly in charge when some of decisions that contributed to those problems were made. However, we are only able to make comments on those decisions with the benefit of hindsight simply because his decisions could have had the opposite effect.

In regard to his frame of mind, I think you do him a lot of disservice to even suggest he wasnt in the right frame of mind to carry out his duties, I think he is actually an inspiration to people with ailments on how to relentlessly and courageously move on irrespective of physical constraints.

A lot of posters seem to overplay his deficiencies while oversimplifying the extraordinary challenges this man faced in his last years.

In retrospect, should he have made some of the decisions he made as Minister of Finance...absolutely not. That is why we can make this assertions in a retrospective manner like any of us would have done things differently giving the time constraints. Do not forget that he sought advise from various reputable organisations and interested bodies that actually encouraged him to give a blanket guarantee!...

Another interesting view held by some posters is the fact that some people have committed suicide because of the current economic crises...very tragic!!, but the truth is that people were killing themselves at the height of the boom also when money was hardly scarce. I think that has to do with mental conditions rather than economic implications. One could indeed argue that if they were strong minded then there would be no need to kill themselves. Far more people in worse economic conditions that overcome the challenges.

In summary, BL made serious errors of judgement but I doubt we can question his loyalty to the Irish people.

My name is URL

He was one cog in a wonky wheel that ultimately destroyed itself, along with the system which allowed for it to do so much damage in the process. What's the sense in either evangelising about him or demonising him for what happened overall? It's not going to change much now.. the wheel has been replaced by a slightly better one.

later12

gandalf wrote: »

I also disagree with those that say he was brave to continue on after his diagnosis with cancer. I believe he was arrogant and irresponsible both to his family...

Irresponsible to the country - ok, that is debatable. But irresponsible to his family? Where do you get off, making condemnations of politicians - or anybody - over how they interact with their families? It was not a million years ago that another great FF luminary was expressing cynicism over Mary Robinson and her family time. Seriously, I think you need to leave it out.

I certainly do not believe he was in the right frame of mind to make sound decisions on the financial future of this country.

There is no foundation for this sort of statement. Are you suggesting that those who are seriously ill or recovering from cancer should not be allowed work in positions of significant authority?
Brian Lenihan was incompetent in Finance long before his cancer. Arguably, approaching one’s mortality is more likely to concentrate the mind on one’s track record, but I feel that even going into the point too deeply would be to entertain the above quote far more than it deserves.

gerryo777

Pathetic, cookie monster. Hope it makes you feel better now you've spewed your venom!!

ebbsy

Legacy ? Made our children leave the country while he saved the banks.

later12

ebbsy wrote: »

Legacy ? Made our children leave the country while he saved the banks.

Why, do you think all the children would be at home getting ready for work in the morning if he had let the banks go down? Have any savings yourself?

DexyDrain

Wouldn't life be so simple if we really did live in this childish bubble, 'oh it was the Brians what done it...'.
The standard of analysis in this country is almost as embarrassing as the level of debt. If FF didn't give you your bubble, FG and Labour were giving you more. Policy was driven by demand, demand for cheap housing, low taxes, best paid public services, shut those strikers up, never been a better time to buy/spend.

It might be news to a lot of people, but the very same crisis point has hit many other countries in the past, for almost identical reasons. Just like we seem to think we're the only country in the world that was plundered by a neighbour. It's really, really embarrassing how parochial our outlook actually is.

In an ideal world he would still be alive and doing time in Mountjoy with several bankers