The Legacy of Brian Lenihan

jmayo

later10 wrote: »

Well, in fact he probably has effectively taken much of it to his grave.

Other politicians, in the twilight of their years, recline and wax lyrical about the hard decisions they were faced with, their human limits, and can be absolved of their mistakes. Just look at Garret FitzGerald, a living walking economic tornado who brought the country to the cliff face of economic ruin in the 1980s, and who, two autobiographies and blame shifting and a lot of grey hair later, was so heavily and publicly mourned in death.

Brian Cowen will write his own biography, or have it written, or otherwise attempt to diminish his culpability in words or in writing well into his greying years. So too will Bertie Ahern and Charlie McCreevey.

But Brian Lenihan has gone into the ether without saying a word to justify himself at the expense of his party or the political leadership. No doubt he did deserve blame, but was the blame his alone? Without a defense to his name, or personal explanations beyond what is already public, Brian Lenihan certainly will be a convenient bad guy for any historian looking back on the debt crisis.

The others, like Garrett FitzGerald had, will have plenty of time to write their excuses.

Stop trying to use this thread to have a pop at Fitzgerald.

He may have led a raggle taggle economically inept government, but he didn't help take the country from it's best ever economic position in the late 90s to ultimate destruction requiring outside intervention all the while arrogantly thumping his nose up at anyone that dared disagree with the course.

The sad thing at the moment is the revisionism is already starting for someone who has now departed this life and looking at the calibre of the remaining prime actors in this sordid play it is very likely in years to come there will be further revisionism to blame those who can no longer defend themselves.

later12

jmayo wrote: »

Stop trying to use this thread to have a pop at Fitzgerald.

It is no more a pop at FitzGerald than it is a pop at McCreevy, Ahern, or Cowen, who I also mentioned. Neither is it a competition and I am not interested in your silly FF-FG claptrap.

The point is that Brian Lenihan did not have the opportunity of time to explain internal conflicts within the cabinet from his behalf, nor his perspective at all outside of and beyond the mainstream party perspective. Simple enough point.

Sir Oxman

I wonder did BL put on paper his side of things knowing he had a terminal illness?
I'd imagine a man in his position probably would.

nelly17

gambiaman wrote: »

I wonder did BL put on paper his side of things knowing he had a terminal illness?
I'd imagine a man in his position probably would.

Dont Know, he could have been told his time was pretty limited and would have decided to make it count by spending as much time as he could with loved ones. He had enough on his plate. I'd be very surprised if he did.

T runner

Di0genes wrote: »

Factually dishonest.

You mean factually incorrect? If someone disagrees with your "facts" does that make you dishonest?

Self righteousness and hypocracy are two sides of the same coin alas.

Di0genes

Spudmonkey wrote: »

That's true but I'm sure it was made on advice from said advisers as opposed to a midnight call made to a certain McWilliams. He therefore didn't just decide to implement it over a casual cup of coffee.

He may as well have, his decision saved the money of currency speculators and professional investors.

And to his own. Which is why I'd like to believe his decision was made with the best of intentions.

His children will be well looked after with a better start in life than 99% of his countrymen. They'll be nurtured and protected by the Clannish nebbish world of hardcore FFers. The Lenihan's are a FF dynasty.

Da Shins Kelly

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

.I for one am not sorry to see the back of him.

That's disgraceful..

Da Shins Kelly

Di0genes wrote: »

His children will be well looked after with a better start in life than 99% of his countrymen. They'll be nurtured and protected by the Clannish nebbish world of hardcore FFers. The Lenihan's are a FF dynasty.

I'm sure they'd rather have their father still alive.

bette

Brian Lenihan did not inherit anything. He was offered a senior ministry by his prime minister and he accepted it. This was done with the foreknowledge of the financial affairs of the nation which any minister would be aware of at cabinet.

He had the option of refusing this job as we live in a free state and cannot be forced into taking on such responsibilities.

Recent history shows that he failed miserably in his ministry. He was a pretty good spoofer as per his profession of barrister and probably had many happy customers for his snake oil!

Most of the contributors here did not know him personally so the RIP stuff rings a bit hollow. It must be remembered that he was very much in the public eye and incidentally, well paid for this so some adverse commentary is to be expected.

The claims of great intelligence are rather misplaced in light of the fact the Lenihan was diagnosed with a terminal illness and one might question both his physical and mental capacity to assume the most important ministry in the light of the economic storm that was raging!

jmayo

later10 wrote: »

It is no more a pop at FitzGerald than it is a pop at McCreevy, Ahern, or Cowen, who I also mentioned. Neither is it a competition and I am not interested in your silly FF-FG claptrap.

The point is that Brian Lenihan did not have the opportunity of time to explain internal conflicts within the cabinet from his behalf, nor his perspective at all outside of and beyond the mainstream party perspective. Simple enough point.

And my point is that for all Fitzgerald's failings it is highly insulting to dump him into the same class of economic failures as mcgreevy, ahern, cowen and even lenihan.

And I bloody well agreed with you on your last point.
The three stooges mentioned above in years to come will try and hang each other and lump the blame on lenihan.
Hell ahern has already started that process with blaming cowen.

later12

jmayo wrote: »

And my point is that for all Fitzgerald's failings it is highly insulting to dump him into the same class of economic failures as mcgreevy, ahern, cowen and even lenihan.

Garrett FitzGerald was an economic failure who let down thousands of decent hard working people, families, and young people throughout the 1980s. His mistakes are still remembered, as will be those of Lenihan and his colleagues.

As far as I am concerned, in economic terms, Garrett FitzGerald belongs at the back of the class with our more contemporary dunces.

The simple point is that Lenihan has not had a real chance to justify or explain his failures, FitzGerald had two autobiographies.

easychair

Garrett Fitz, Brian Lenihan, etc etc etc, they are all failures who have brought Ireland to economic ruin. Mind you, the irish voted for them, and as has been pointed out elsewhere, the political illiteracy of the Irish electorate is the culprit, without whom Lenihan and his party could not have been elected to bring Ireland to financial and economic ruination.

K-9

jmayo wrote: »

And my point is that for all Fitzgerald's failings it is highly insulting to dump him into the same class of economic failures as mcgreevy, ahern, cowen and even lenihan.

And I bloody well agreed with you on your last point.
The three stooges mentioned above in years to come will try and hang each other and lump the blame on lenihan.
Hell ahern has already started that process with blaming cowen.

Garret gets a get out of jail free card by blaming it on Haughey, Lenihan's legacy will not have that option.

By all accounts he seemed a genuine and affable character thrown in at the deep end.

RIP.

LutherBlissett

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh, come on...
he (among others) presided over the biggest scandal in Irish history, handing billions of banking debt over to the public and lied constantly to the same public about what was going on.

I for one am not sorry to see the back of him.

Ye may feel that's harsh but he imposed hardship and suffering on tens of thousands of Irish people due to his financial decisions as minister and did it all without regret and with a smile on his face.

What an inappropriate sentiment on this day.

Seeing the back of a politician is all very well (and believe me I am as anti FF as the next person) - seeing death as a means to this is very different, and very morally wrong.

In addition to being a politician, he was a husband, father, brother etc, and for those people, the coming days will be sufficiently heartbreaking without online sniping adding to it.

RIP.

Deise Tom

One of our better politions in modern days. regretfully however there is some that are today saying he was a great man, and a great polition etc, but up to today many of these same people will have been calling for him to be jailed for his part in Ireland's economical reversal. Shows how two faced so many people are.

Godge

I am a constituent of Brian Lenihan's and in dealings with him in Dublin West (when he was still a backbencher), I found him decent approachable and listened to my concerns.

He was a disastorous appointment as Minister for Finance and he did great damage to this country (probably fifth in terms of damage behind Haughey, DeValera, Ahern and Cowen). We recovered from the damage inflicted by DeValera and Haughey and hopefully we will recover again.

However, despite that damage, Lenihan was not corrupt like a Haughey or Ahern or a complete cowardly imbecile like Cowen. Neither can he be classed as a Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor or George Redmond who profited themselves through public service. In fact he was the opposite. He was a man who gave up a potentially extremely lucrative career as a barrister to go into public service and he did it for the best of reasons - to serve the public. Unfortunately, it is an understatement to say he was not very good at it. just as DeValera's heart may have been in the right place, so was Brian Lenihan's.

You know, the closest public figure I can think of is Avram Grant at West Ham. Avram Grant came into a situation where a football club had spent beyond its means through irresponsible ownership and management and he needed to get every decision right to save West Ham. He made every decision wrong and West Ham got relegated. The fact that he was completely incompetent as a football coach didn't stop people from saying "but he is a decent man".

In the same way, while I never voted for Brian Lenihan and thought he was one of the worst Finance Ministers we ever had (Ahern, Cowen, Gene Fitzgerald - anyone remember him and the guy who cut pensions in the 1930s would also feature in that contest), I have to say rest in peace in view of the fact that he did his best for the best reasons despite the fact that through no fault of his own, he was picked to do a job he was not capable of.

Di0genes

T runner wrote: »

You mean factually incorrect? If someone disagrees with your "facts" does that make you dishonest?

Self righteousness and hypocracy are two sides of the same coin alas.

It's a dishonest claim that Mc Williams and Mc Williams only convinced Lenihan to do engage in a blanket bank guarantee.

I'll admit you could have just been ignorant and been incorrect. But you made it seem like you were completely sure of the facts, so to my mind it's dishonest.

jmayo

the_syco wrote: »

TBH, anyone else with the same disease as him will see that he could carry on and live life to the full to the very end. No matter what you think of him as a politician, his character is an example of someone who wouldn't let a fatal disease get between him and life.

Patrick Swayze continued to work.
Steve Jobs continues to work.
So he is not the lone shining example.

later10 wrote: »

Garrett FitzGerald was an economic failure who let down thousands of decent hard working people, families, and young people throughout the 1980s. His mistakes are still remembered, as will be those of Lenihan and his colleagues.

He may not have helped the situation in the 80s, but then again he was not part of a government that squandered the best ever economy we had which eventually led to the country's economic soverignty being sold to foreign institutions and governments.

later10 wrote: »

As far as I am concerned, in economic terms, Garrett FitzGerald belongs at the back of the class with our more contemporary dunces.

Hate him as you do, you have to admit he never subverted an entire economy to benefit a chosen few, then arrogantly ignored warnings and good governance all the while continuing unabated towards ruin.

later10 wrote: »

The simple point is that Lenihan has not had a real chance to justify or explain his failures, FitzGerald had two autobiographies.

Is that Fitzgeralds fault ?
So in your world an early death without publishing memoirs or autobiographies absolves you of some blame ?

K-9 wrote: »

Garret gets a get out of jail free card by blaming it on Haughey, Lenihan's legacy will not have that option.

But you see the reason most of us non tinted glasses wearers are getting peed off is that some around here and on the media are already trying to rewrite his legacy and indeed claim the blame lies solely with ahern and cowen.
He is labelled as unfortunate.
Yes he was, but the problem was that he added to it in spades.

K-9 wrote: »

By all accounts he seemed a genuine and affable character thrown in at the deep end.

RIP.

He may have been affable and genuine, but my opinion of him was cemented the day he supported o'dea.

later12

jmayo wrote: »

He may not have helped the situation in the 80s, but then again he was not part of a government that squandered the best ever economy we had

Then again, he did not start the potato famine... then again, he did not beat up little children... FFS why is it every time a reasonable criticism is made in a political context, someone comes along and ignores that point, but then tells you what they didnt do.

Judge: You robbed that bank, didnt you?
Thief: But I dont beat old ladies!!!

I have already stated that this is not a competition. The fact is that FitzGerald had a dismal economic record. His unpopularity at the time was diminished later in life after numerous (rather dotty) television appearances, two autobiographies, and the fact that he was a genuinely nice man.

Nobody is comparing Lenihan to FitzGerald. The point is that we have evidence, looking at former politicians, that history is sometimes revised when old political actors have a long time to explain and justify their actions - or even apologise in times of relative calm.

Brian Lenihan has never justified or explained his mistakes on a personal level. This might distort his perceived impact on events relative to players like Brian Cowen and other members of the 30th Dail cabinet who have many many years to justify their actions.

PatsytheNazi

Well since the closet FFer's are lecturing the rest of us on our inhumanity and lack of respect for other human beings, maybe they should consider the lives and family's destroyed by self sacrificing ' heroes' such as Mr. Lenihan, Ahern, Harney and the rest of FF criminals -
Irish suicide rates leap during economic collapse

" They are now facing financial disaster, bankruptcy and destitution.there are teachers, police, lawyers all caught in the crossfire. They are in a suffocating despair. I was talking to one family who lost a husband and a brother, and they have been simply torn apart. It's hard for people to talk about, to go public about what has happened "

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-suicide-rates-leap-during-economic-collapse-88786552.html

Debthree

A Plague On Both Your Houses wrote: »

Damn.

He was and still is respected. I know if I had a cancer I'd just take my early retirement and live the rest of my life on some Island.

RIP.

Hmmm, political power is a great motivator I guess.

later12

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well since the closet FFer's are lecturing the rest of us on our inhumanity and lack of respect for other human beings, maybe they should consider the lives and family's destroyed by self sacrificing ' heroes' such as Mr. Lenihan, Ahern, Harney and the rest of the FF scum -
Irish suicide rates leap during economic collapse

" They are now facing financial disaster, bankruptcy and destitution.there are teachers, police, lawyers all caught in the crossfire. They are in a suffocating despair. I was talking to one family who lost a husband and a brother, and they have been simply torn apart. It's hard for people to talk about, to go public about what has happened "

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-suicide-rates-leap-during-economic-collapse-88786552.html

It is extremely disingenuous to associate Lenihan with a rise in suicide mortality. I think everybody has been touched by this financial crisis in some way, and the extreme majority do not commit suicide.

Blaming Lenihan for a suicide is like blaming a woman for the death of her husband, who kills himself in the event of a divorce.

A lot of people have pretty screwed up mental health in this country. A financial crisis or a bankruptcy is not a cause of death, death might arise when an individual - for whatever reason - does not cope with a crisis situation as he ought to be able to cope were he in a healthy mental state.
It is absurd to suggest that Brian Lenihan as a Finance Minister should plan for that sort of eventuality, just how far was he supposed to go?

If you want to blame someone for mental health, blame the HSE and successive Health Ministers. Mental Health services are not the perogative of the Minister for Finance.

steelcityblues

Happyman42 wrote: »

Hanging in there and doing his job when he was going through the toughest part of his in-humane treatment, maybe? the 'throw everything at it' phase. Have you ever witnessed close hand what that is like for a person for weeks and months after?

To somebody humane that means his motivations weren't personal...they may have been misguided but evil they weren't.

Just because he had to deal with cancer on a personal level, does not mean he gets a pass on his daily actions as Finance Minister. I never said he was 'evil' either.

The man knew the scale of the job he took on, and never publicly accepted the consequences of his decisions.

I have witnessed a few dear friends going through cancer - both with considerably less money and power than Mr. Lenihan. Both missed.

Continue with your faux moral high ground, if you want to though!

Big Mouth

To all the people that haven't nice things to say:

what have you ever done? ABSOLUTE nobody internet warriors with too many opinions......this place certainly brings them out, very different from the real world the way people opine.

Everyone knows the last Government made a total mess of things, who's saying any different? So why would you have to mention it here, the man worked harder and under more pressure than you or I ever will.

I would respect that about him and his fine personal achivements in life and let the man RIP.

PatsytheNazi

later10 wrote: »

It is extremely disingenuous to associate Lenihan with a rise in suicide mortality. I think everybody has been touched by this financial crisis in some way, and the extreme majority do not commit suicide.

Blaming Lenihan for a suicide is like blaming a woman for the death of her husband, who kills himself in the event of a divorce.

A lot of people have pretty screwed up mental health in this country. A financial crisis or a bankruptcy is not a cause of death, death might arise when an individual - for whatever reason - does not cope with a crisis situation as he ought to be able to in a healthy mental state. It is nabsurd to suggest that Brian Lenihan as a Finance Minister should plan for that sort of eventuality, just how far was he supposed to go?

If you want to blame someone for mental health, blame the HSE and successive Health Ministers. Mental Health services are not the perogative of the Minister for Finance.

:rolleyes: Oh for Gawd's sake :rolleyes: Not blaming Lenihan solely for the rise in suicide, but pointing out he was a senior member of the Govt ( didn't notice I mentioned Ahern, Harney etc ? ) that brought around the economic horror that has undoubtably has increased suicide :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Enough with the handbagging already. At the best of times it's not welcome, and brawling at a funeral is unacceptable in anybody's book.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Big Mouth

Big Mouth wrote: »

To all the people that haven't nice things to say:

what have you ever done? ABSOLUTE nobody internet warriors with too many opinions......this place certainly brings them out, very different from the real world the way people opine.

Everyone knows the last Government made a total mess of things, who's saying any different? So why would you have to mention it here, the man worked harder and under more pressure than you or I ever will.

I would respect that about him and his fine personal achivements in life and let the man RIP.

And saddled every man woman and child with a debt of 20k and counting.

At least he worked hard eh?

Im Only 71Kg

in fairness it's sad to hear of his passing..but the truth is he was a lying sleeveen scumbag fianna fail politician. the one thing i'll remember about Brian Lenihan is him standing up in dail eireann telling the irish people "we've turned the corner,this is not a bail out" not long after that i like many other lost my job because he and his scumbag party signed off on the biggest bailout in the history of the state..corrupt bankers,builders fianna failer's..corrupt politician.

it's sad to hear he died at a young age..may he rest in peace.

Flibbles

Big Mouth wrote: »

To all the people that haven't nice things to say:

what have you ever done? ABSOLUTE nobody internet warriors with too many opinions......this place certainly brings them out, very different from the real world the way people opine.

Everyone knows the last Government made a total mess of things, who's saying any different? So why would you have to mention it here, the man worked harder and under more pressure than you or I ever will.

I would respect that about him and his fine personal achivements in life and let the man RIP.

I think the question is more "what have we not done?"

jmayo

ronoc wrote: »

And saddled every man woman and child with a debt of 20k and counting.

At least he worked hard eh?

The thought that crossed my mind earlier was should I go home this evening and tell my 3 month old and 3 year old that they should be sad because the man that lumped 10 to 20 grand of others debts on their heads has passed away ?

Frankly his passing has no affect on my life and being honest I couldn't care whether he is alive or dead tonight.
He and his family don't know me or my family, so asking me to feel some huge loss is like asking me to feel something for any other person I don't know who died today.
I know what it is like to lose family to this type of cancer and I think it is hard for the ones left behind, especially young children, but that is the sum total of my feelings.

I am not a hypocrit and I don't see why I should change my opinion of the man today from what it was yesterday.

Skyrim wrote: »

Would most people think Noonan or Bruton have done any better in his positio? R.I.P Brian.

Maybe ask later10, he has a thing about using this type of question.

BTW we can only conjecture what they might have done, we do know what lenihan and co did.
Fact always beats what might have beens in court.