The Legacy of Brian Lenihan

JonathanAnon

steelcityblues wrote: »

How do you think Pat Kenny's lasted so long in Montrose? I'm not so shocked to hear this revisionism.

Christ, Newstalk are at it now... It seems they have the same "Dallas Syndrome" that Míchael Martin had when he took over as FF leader... He didnt just "land in the position of Minister For Finance" when everything was wrong.. he fully SUPPORTED all of the FF policy for the previous two terms of Government (including Charlie McCreevy's mismanagement of Finance) that actually caused our economic problems.. I feel sorry for the guy and his family, but I hate when people soften the hard facts just because a person has passed on..

ardmacha

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I have to agree with Cookie_Monster on this one..

The point is Kaiser2000 that your post does not agree with Cookie_Monster, as you do not welcome his death, although you note the disastrous outcome of his actions.

So he should just put up with endless proagandist tributes to Lenihan? The man was Finance Minister through the period which has led us into two hundred million euro plus of debt and has effectively destroyed our republic.

He was Finance Minister and his record remains and we all pay for it.
But welcoming his death is unacceptable and saying that it is nonsense to describe him as intelligent is plain prejudice.

CiaranC

aislingirwin93 wrote:

People are upset.

Youre damn right they are.

murpho999 wrote: »

The real fault of Ireland's problems lie with Brian Cowen, when he was Minister for Finance and Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach.

Yeah, we'll blame them right up until they die - then we'll give them state funerals and call them heros. Its the Irish way.

Di0genes

For those insisting on respect and decorum it's the politics forum FFS. Of course the man's politics will be discussed here.

In my opinion the blanket bank guarantee was singularly the worst decision made in the history of state. Lenihan's claims and lies in the past years "cheapest bank bailout in history" and "the IMF are not coming here" did the the greatest disservice of any Minister ever in the history of state.

He bankrupt the nation.
I can't bring myself to hate the man, but with his health in such a perilous condition he should not have taken on board such strenuous duties.

He's done more damage to this country than anyone living or dead, and so I'll never been in the mood to eulogise his contribution to our country. It is a terrible fate to befall his family and friends. But I can't help but wonder about the debt burden he's placed on this country. The invariable cuts to our already shambolic health service are inevitable thanks to his work. Many young men and women will die because of these cuts, and their family members won't be comforted by eulogises in news papers and Pat Kenny.

motherriley

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh, come on...
he (among others) presided over the biggest scandal in Irish history, handing billions of banking debt over to the public and lied constantly to the same public about what was going on.

I for one am not sorry to see the back of him.

Ye may feel that's harsh but he imposed hardship and suffering on tens of thousands of Irish people due to his financial decisions as minister and did it all without regret and with a smile on his face.

Well, that is rich consider that all politicians are the same, all in it for themselves and for their families first and perhaps the poor job public will get a look in if they are big earners.

I could unstained you saying something like that about Bin Liner but a very good man that was working hard and doing his best despite his illness that he must have known that there is no cure for....

R.I.P Mr. Lenihan

murpho999

later10 wrote: »

Why do you say this
when you then just go on to say this
These latter two points are two highly contestable claims. I have nothing against Brian Lenihan but he was an ineffective Finance Minister who made some really brutal decisions. He would have known that himself, wel all know that too, thats fine. If you want to suggest that nobody criticise Leniahn today, thats fine, that is understandable.

But please do not patronise our intelligence with the above.

I'm not patronising, but the truth is that the country was in recession and banks were in trouble before he was Minister for Finance.

These came about because of Cowen's & Ahern's economic policies.

Lenihan, was then left and confronted with the problems.

You can debate all day about his actions since then, whether the bank guarantee was right or not, but the fact is that he was not the cause of recession or bank collapse.

boogerballs

murpho999 wrote: »

RIP Brian Lenihan.

I can't believe some posters here.

Thinking he deserved to die because of bank guarantee.

Unbelievable. Glad they don't run the country.

Ah FFS come on now - No-one has said he deserved to die because of bank guarantee. Where from any of the posts did you get this from???

murpho999

boogerballs wrote: »

Ah FFS come on now - No-one has said he deserved to die because of bank guarantee. Where from any of the posts did you get this from???

See below: I used bank guarantee as that his most famous policy decision.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh, come on...
he (among others) presided over the biggest scandal in Irish history, handing billions of banking debt over to the public and lied constantly to the same public about what was going on.

I for one am not sorry to see the back of him.

Ye may feel that's harsh but he imposed hardship and suffering on tens of thousands of Irish people due to his financial decisions as minister and did it all without regret and with a smile on his face.

Denalihighway

Tayla wrote: »

At the end of the day I find it absolutely amazing that people can speak about Brian the way they do, that he was so great and he did a good job despite his illness etc.

I'm sorry but I can't help but think of how different things could be if this had happened a few years earlier, I have never said anything like that before in my life but this man and Fianna Fail have caused me to feel like that, How when not even a century had gone by since they were formed did they go from wanting to do what was best for the country to the greedy robbing pushovers to Europe they became?


I had a family member who committed suicide as a result of the effects of this recession on his life, he tried and tried to get a job and nothing, there was no help for him, do you think Brian Lenihan would have read a newspaper and given him a second thought? Of course he wouldn't have.

This man and his decisions have changed most peoples lives in Ireland for the worst but yet only the people who don't want to say anything bad about him are allowed to speak.

He caused the anger against him, he's the reason some of us are still fuming at him, we're not just evil people who don't give a s**t that someone has died but he is the one that caused it.

I'm sorry if my opinion sickens some of you but to be honest it genuinely sickens me that for the next few days we'll have to listen to what a great man he was.

how many people have called him "great"?

i'd tend to agreee with you. i just don't feel the need to dance on his grave. not today.

steelcityblues

Happyman42 wrote: »

RIP and condolences to his family.






If you lose your humanity then you have truly lost everything and are absolutely bereft and adrift in a sea of pointless hate and bile. You are only to be pitied.

We could equally ask, when did Lenihan show his humanity in his actions as Finance Minister?

BehindTheScenes

One less for the gallows as far as I'm concerned. I find it laughable people saying things such as the man was a beacon of light. The man put the average people of this nation into bondage to save Anglo, Sean and the gang.

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

i have on occassions had the pleasure of meeting the man. no matter what you think or say, to me he was one of the more decent politicans we've ever had. he was mixed up with the wrong crowd, but like his father was made a scape goat. F.Y.I. for those of that thought brian was bad wait till you see whats around the corner.
i ask you all that post attacks on brian lenihan
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."
R.I.P. brian, you will be sadly missed by all.

Two things

(a) He chose to go in to public service.

(b) I don't like FG but they're tied in to this sh1tty deal because of Brian.

JonathanAnon

murpho999 wrote: »

The real fault of Ireland's problems lie with Brian Cowen, when he was Minister for Finance and Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach.

I think Charlie McCreevy was far more cuplable.. His pompous, arrogant manner set the tone for that FF Government.. and you even hear anecdotally now just how much damage he alone did to our reputation in Europe, with his "strutting about the place"..

I've read stats that he added 40% to the public sector pay bill between 1999-2003.. He was at the helm (of Finance) at the point where a genuine economic boom ended, in about 2001, and was superceded by a property boom.. He was certainly the wrong pensonality type to put in such a position of power, and Ireland is still paying for his mistakes, while he runs around the world being headhunted by private business..

Happyman42

steelcityblues wrote: »

We could equally ask, when did Lenihan show his humanity in his actions as Finance Minister?

Hanging in there and doing his job when he was going through the toughest part of his in-humane treatment, maybe? the 'throw everything at it' phase. Have you ever witnessed close hand what that is like for a person for weeks and months after?

To somebody humane that means his motivations weren't personal...they may have been misguided but evil they weren't.

later12

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

The man put the average people of this nation into bondage

Bondage?

Is this officially an AH thread now, or what?

I supposed he raped the country, you know, after he sold us into slavery. Lot of victimhood in politics this afternoon.

_Kaiser_

Di0genes wrote: »

For those insisting on respect and decorum it's the politics forum FFS. Of course the man's politics will be discussed here.

Exactly.. and as such perhaps all this RIP and instant revisionism belongs in After Hours or Humanties or something.

The true indictment and proof that we really are getting what we deserve as a nation, is this instant absolution of a man who presided over the ruin of our country to preseve the interests of a chosen few. Brian Lenihan didn't just "drop" into the job - he was a long serving and senior FF party member who sat there agreeing with the decisions made by his colleagues and predecessors right up until they were ejected from political office - only THEN did we hear stories of being pressured by Europe and backed into a corner etc etc.
He served the interests of his party, not his country and no amount of "RIP"s and hollow endorsements of how great he was is going to change that.

The true disgrace is the attitude on this thread that just because a man has died (and as I've already acknowledged, on a personal level I have every sympathy for his family and children) we should all just shut up, bow our heads and mouth the platitudes so that everyone "feels" better.

Well I'm sorry but we're far beyond that point and if we still haven't woken up to the reality we're facing as a nation as a result of this man's actions and choices (including the choice to lie/support lies to the people about the IMF being called in, the size of the debts etc etc) then we really haven't learned anything and we really are the soft touches our political and economic masters - at home AND now abroad - take us for!

Hermy

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have you ever witnessed close hand what that is like for a person for weeks and months after?

Yes, and that's why I think he was wrong to remain on as Finance Minister.

Scofflaw

I think there's plenty of time (and forum space) to discuss his political legacy - as indeed there already has been. Usual rules apply for RIP threads - comments like "one less for hanging" are not acceptable, and people should know that without having to be told.

moderately,
Scofflaw

ben.schlomo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you wouldn't all be spurting RIP if it was some common criminal who died today, would you? In my eyes that's exactly what he is, it'll be proven in time for what he did to this country and it's people... Just like Haughey was.

I won't apologise for that post, nor retract it.

but of course, how dare I speak out with a different opinion, we all have to be nice today cos he died, like it changes something all of a sudden.
What about all the other people in Ireland who passed away today, where's their condolence? But they were just common folk, not some glorious politician we can all circle jerk about and pretend we knew and liked.

The man was a public figure hence the public condolences. Local people also receive this from their community. You dont agree and clearly abhor what has happened via his decisions but the has passed untimely and left behind a wife and family. Have a little common decency at least.

RIP and sympathies to his family.

BehindTheScenes

later10 wrote: »

Bondage?

Is this officially an AH thread now, or what?

I supposed he raped the country, you know, after he sold us into slavery. Lot of victimhood in politics this afternoon.

Bondage: A state of being greatly constrained by circumstances or obligations.

Lenihan transferred the debts of the major banks in this country on to the heads of the citizens of this state. He also left the current gov with a terrible deal that it has to implement.

Hence the word bondage.

Flibbles

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

Hence the word bondage.

That and he was part of the group that tied us down and...you get the rest.

Though we didn't get a safe word.

zumfordan

He bore his awful illness well, a disease that strikes without care or compassion. God be good to his wife and children but I cannot think of anyone in the last 100 years who has done so much to damage Ireland, her society and economy.

He was a good communicator but was internationally viewed as the worst finance minister since the end of WW2 (editor of Financial Times). He continued to look after the Anglo Irish boys and protect the powerful backers of his party from tax hikes and cuts that affected the other 95% up to his last days. What other Minister could have given tax breaks to failed bankers while cutting support for blind people.

He was not personally corrupt like Haughey, he did the same things for free and to a much greater scale than Haughey could envisaged.

History will Judge him harshly. His legacy is a broken Ireland, I feel nothing for his passing, there are enough decent people out there that deserve it.

RATM

While we run a condolances thread on Brian Lenihan can we also have one for all those people who have died earlier than they should have (including my own grandmother) due to the massive shambles our health service is in ?

_Kaiser_

TonyStark wrote: »

I am guessing a more considered and respectful comment on a man that has just passed away might have been asking a lot

By that logic there should have been a sincere "RIP Bin Laden" thread in recent weeks too.

Just because someone has died doesn't wipe their slate clean, nor should people forget what they did (or didn't do as the case may be) and neither should they be "forced" to express comments they don't believe in just so (as I said earlier) everyone "feels" better and appearances are maintained.

zumfordan

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

One less for the gallows as far as I'm concerned. I find it laughable people saying things such as the man was a beacon of light. The man put the average people of this nation into bondage to save Anglo, Sean and the gang.




Two things

(a) He chose to go in to public service.

(b) I don't like FG but they're tied in to this sh1tty deal because of Brian.

+1

He was mocked and derided internationally as the Minister for Fairies and Unicorns for his outlandish and foolish mistakes. His classic line about Ireland not being susceptible to a bank run because we are an Island being the most foolish. He like Cowen was hyped up in stature by the media, but the rest of the world Judged him the worst finance minister in Europe, 2 years running.

Cancer kills without consideration, it takes good, bad, young, old without mercy and it is a truly awful condition, that hopefully will be eradicated someday soon. Let it not cloud the truly horrendous legacy that he and his cronies have created for Ireland, iin order to protect a small clique of their friends.

A traitor was the old fashioned name for people like that.

[MOD]Banned for a week for apparent inability to read mod warnings.[/MOD]

Cookie_Monster

murpho999 wrote: »

See below: I used bank guarantee as that his most famous policy decision.

I never said nor implied I wished his death, only that I would not miss him that he has died. There is a difference.

Bottle_of_Smoke

To peopel saying we shouldn't criticise him - this isn't the bereavement forum, its politics. Therefore his political legacy is likely to be discussed on his death.

later12

zumfordan wrote: »

...but was internationally viewed as the worst finance minister since the end of WW2 (editor of Financial Times).

The editor of the FT is Lionel Barber and he said no such thing. Nor did any political or economic writer with the FT say any such thing, to my knowledge. He was judged the worst out of 19 European Finance Ministers in one year, of course, but that is in quite a different league.

Laois_Man

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

the choice to lie/support lies to the people about the IMF being called in, the size of the debts etc etc

You don't accept that there was a negotiating strategy to be persued by "lying" about the IMF/EU being called in? On that Mr. Hounohan, who (in the inerested of his ECB masters), pulled the rug out from under him?

You don't also accept that all Mr. Lenihan might have been guilty of was that he simply didn't know the size of the debts - when all the advsiors around him were telling him (and us) that it was only a bank liquidity problem?

Laois_Man

TBWATER123 wrote: »

All of us contributed to the current economic state of this country - with our incessant purchasing and selling of property, all eager to make a quick buck..

Rubbish!!

I did not, nor did anyone I am related to, buy or sell one square inch of property "to make a quick buck"! Nor did 99% of the population! People bought houses for a place to live!!

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

You don't accept that there was a negotiating strategy to be persued by "lying" about the IMF/EU being called in? On that Mr. Hounohan, who (in the inerested of his ECB masters), pulled the rug out from under him?

You don't also accept that all Mr. Lenihan might have been guilty of was that he simply didn't know the size of the debts - when all the advsiors around him were telling him (and us) that it was only a bank liquidity problem?

As the yanks say, the buck stopped with him. If he was advised badly that is his fault for not seeking other advice.