The Legacy of Brian Lenihan

Sir Oxman

Deleted User wrote: »

Service to who ? Anglo and Sean Quinn?? Dont rewrite history we the people got screwed.

RIP Lenihan is fine but if people make comments about how great he supposedly was then it should be fair game.

A young man with a family died today dont try turn it into a propaganda show. That would be a disgrace.

^^This

zumfordan

Laois_Man wrote: »

You don't accept that there was a negotiating strategy to be persued by "lying" about the IMF/EU being called in? On that Mr. Hounohan, who (in the inerested of his ECB masters), pulled the rug out from under him?

You don't also accept that all Mr. Lenihan might have been guilty of was that he simply didn't know the size of the debts - when all the advsiors around him were telling him (and us) that it was only a bank liquidity problem?

All of his actions as a Minister for Finance were based on protecting a very small no. of people and institutions. That is all that informed his decisions, it certainly was not out of a concern for Ireland. He was able like Haughey to fool people and bring them on board but he was no different to Haughey or Lawlor or Ahern or Ray Burke, all his friends and colleagues, all people he backed.

Laois_Man

ronoc wrote: »

As the yanks say, the buck stopped with him. If he was advised badly that is his fault for not seeking other advice.

Very overly simplistic.
How was he to know he wasn't being advised well - until nearly 3 years later when we got the reults o the stress tests - what with the bankers themeselves telling bareface lies and doing all they could to hide documents pertaining to how much crap they'd caused! Leinihan was not going to find an advisor ANYWHERE who had access to this information!

Boulevardier

I didn't agree with him on a single thing, but he gave it his all. Credit where it's due.

later12

ronoc wrote: »

As the yanks say, the buck stopped with him. If he was advised badly that is his fault for not seeking other advice.

Did the buck stop with John W Snyder?

Funny that, I always thought it was Harry Truman.

Laois_Man

zumfordan wrote: »

All of his actions as a Minister for Finance were based on protecting a very small no. of people and institutions. That is all that informed his decisions

I've heard that populist view many many times. But I have yet to see one single piece of evidence to back it up!

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

Very overly simplistic.
How was he to know he wasn't being advised well - until nearly 2 years later when we got the reults o the stress tests - what with the bankers themeselves telling bareface lies and doing all they could to hide documents pertaining to how much crap they'd caused! Leinihan was not going to find an advisor ANYWHERE who had access to this information!

It is that simple. There were plenty of experts that disagreed yet he chose not to consult them or heed their advice.

He made the decision, ultimate responsibility lies with him and the other members of the cabinet.

zumfordan

Deleted User wrote: »

Service to who ? Anglo and Sean Quinn?? Dont rewrite history we the people got screwed.

RIP Lenihan is fine but if people make comments about how great he supposedly was then it should be fair game.

A young man with a family died today dont try turn it into a propaganda show. That would be a disgrace.

If you want to see Propaganda wait till the by-election, watch FF use his name at every turn to get the vote out, a strong result as a platform to rebuild the party. Let the games begin again and off bankrupt Ireland again.

Personally I always thought that they kept him in the job hoping that he and their sins would be buried with him. Cynical I know but this is FF we are talking about and it is the Lenihans, look at Brian eulogizing Haughey, the man who robbed his fathers sick fund. These are not decent people.

juuge

Of course it's a sad day for his family, however if he was a man of such high repute, intelligence and great ability, what the hell was he doing in Fianna Fail?

Laois_Man

ronoc wrote: »

It is that simple. There were plenty of experts that disagreed yet he chose not to consult them or heed their advice.

He made the decision, ultimate responsibility lies with him and the other members of the cabinet.

you'll always get "experts" who'll disagree with whatever decisions were made. In some cases, even the same "experts" would probably disagree!

In any case, my objection is nothing to do with the fact that he made wrong desisions. He did....and even he would have changed them if he could have turned the clock back. My objection is about this notion that he did so in an underhand or intentionally dishonest manner!

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

you'll always get "experts" who'll disagree with whatever decisions were made. In some cases, even the same "experts" would probably disagree!

In any case, my objection is nothing to do with the fact that he made wrong desisions. He did....and even he would have changed them if he could have turned the clock back. My objection is about this notion that he did so in an underhand or intentionally dishonest manner!

I agree in that I don't think his integrity is in question.
However I do believe he was incompetent.

Scofflaw

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

To peopel saying we shouldn't criticise him - this isn't the bereavement forum, its politics. Therefore his political legacy is likely to be discussed on his death.

A further note, since some people seem to have had difficulty with the earlier note.

This is the Politics forum, and people are entitled to be critical, but keep it to 'appropriate criticism' - those whose idea of 'appropriate criticism' is calling the man a traitor or a cretin, or welcoming his death, will enjoy holidays from the forum of varying durations.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dowtcha

dowtcha wrote: »

A true patriot

a true patriot who took our money & the national pension reserve fund to bail out Sean Quinn, the boys in Anglo.

Have people forgotten about the golden circle?

Sure the man is dead, let him be, but dont go rewriting history that we can still remember it insults the living.

carrolls

He inherited a diabolical hand to play in 2007 and he did his best under the circumstances. RIP.
Footnote: It was David McWilliams who advised him on the blanket guarantee. (McWilliams subsequently said It was advice given not knowing the true dire state of the banks at the time.)

LostinBlanch

Tayla wrote: »

At the end of the day I find it absolutely amazing that people can speak about Brian the way they do, that he was so great and he did a good job despite his illness etc.

I'm sorry but I can't help but think of how different things could be if this had happened a few years earlier, I have never said anything like that before in my life but this man and Fianna Fail have caused me to feel like that, How when not even a century had gone by since they were formed did they go from wanting to do what was best for the country to the greedy robbing pushovers to Europe they became?

I had a family member who committed suicide as a result of the effects of this recession on his life, he tried and tried to get a job and nothing, there was no help for him, do you think Brian Lenihan would have read a newspaper and given him a second thought? Of course he wouldn't have.

This man and his decisions have changed most peoples lives in Ireland for the worst but yet only the people who don't want to say anything bad about him are allowed to speak.

He caused the anger against him, he's the reason some of us are still fuming at him, we're not just evil people who don't give a s**t that someone has died but he is the one that caused it.

I'm sorry if my opinion sickens some of you but to be honest it genuinely sickens me that for the next few days we'll have to listen to what a great man he was.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss Tayla and yes it is hard to argue against what you have said above.

Still, condolences to his family but they can't ignore the terrible legacy he and others have left us.

mike kelly

what really happened the night the bank guarantee was signed? he should have told the truth to the irish people instead of taking his secrets to the grave

Spudmonkey

mike kelly wrote: »

what really happened the night the bank guarantee was signed? he should have told the truth to the irish people instead of taking his secrets to the grave

I sincerely doubt he did that on his own.

mike kelly

Spudmonkey wrote: »

I sincerely doubt he did that on his own.

we don't know as he didn't tell us

jmayo

Laois_Man wrote: »

...

You don't also accept that all Mr. Lenihan might have been guilty of was that he simply didn't know the size of the debts - when all the advsiors around him were telling him (and us) that it was only a bank liquidity problem?

Ah come off it.
By all accounts the big two AIB and BOI did not want Anglo included.
Did Price Waterhouse not do a report that said Angloa should not be included ?

Also just because neary, hurley, their minions and Dept. of Finance were making public statements does not automatically follow they were saying the same to the minister and government in private.
Also the Dept of finance, government leaders, IFSRA and CB all knew most of the murky dealings (such as the golden 10 digout, the rent a deposit scheme from IL&P) that had gone on in Anglo.
Hell they had condoned most of them it now appears.

So please stop insulting us that he just got bad advise.

Laois_Man wrote: »

Very overly simplistic.
How was he to know he wasn't being advised well - until nearly 3 years later when we got the reults o the stress tests - what with the bankers themeselves telling bareface lies and doing all they could to hide documents pertaining to how much crap they'd caused! Leinihan was not going to find an advisor ANYWHERE who had access to this information!

Ah FFS stop pedalling absolute bull.
Yes the banks themselves were lying about dept of dodgy lending, but enough people in the regulatory authorities and high ranking government members were more than aware of serious issues.

It always someone elses fault though, isn't it. :rolleyes:

Anyway this is a debate for another day.

Spudmonkey

You seriously believe he guaranteed the banks on his own?

DEFTLEFTHAND

In fairness to the man he inherited one dreadful mess. Someone on the radio likened his tenure as Finance Minister as to being placed in command of the Titanic after it struck the iceberg. While I wouldn't agree with every step he took, I think his commitment and determination to overcome the mammoth obstacles he encountered were admirable especially considering the state of his health during this time. R.I.P

mike kelly

Spudmonkey wrote: »

You seriously believe he guaranteed the banks on his own?

I believe he didn't come clean on what really happened

Di0genes

carrolls wrote: »

He inherited a diabolical hand to play in 2007 and he did his best under the circumstances. RIP.

Rubbish he was a FFer from birth and a part of the government since the mid 90s, to suggest he played no part and mysteriously got handed the financial crisis is as dishonest a claim as Cowen claiming the crisis only happened a few weeks into his government.

Footnote: It was David McWilliams who advised him on the blanket guarantee. (McWilliams subsequently said It was advice given not knowing the true dire state of the banks at the time.)

Factually dishonest.

Spudmonkey

mike kelly wrote: »

I believe he didn't come clean on what really happened

And we fill in the gaps then?

Just because he didn't come clean on what happened doesn't mean he guaranteed the banks single-handedly and it certainly doesn't mean he has taken it to his grave.

Di0genes

You seriously believe he guaranteed the banks on his own?

As Minister for Finance the decision rests on him not on any of his advisers.

Spudmonkey wrote: »

And we fill in the gaps then?

Just because he didn't come clean on what happened doesn't mean he guaranteed the banks single-handedly and it certainly doesn't mean he has taken it to his grave.

Actually the bank guarantee is something he bequeathed to our children, they'll be taking that part of Lenihan's legacy to their graves.

thebman

It is a shame he didn't live to see Ireland survive his mistakes at the time and get out of this mess.

You do have to admire the mans courage to continue in his position when he could have stood down and nobody would have thought less of him.

He clearly believed he was doing what was right for his party and country, even if I do disagree they were the right decisions.

Zubeneschamali

CiaranC wrote: »

Beacon of intelligence indeed.

The FFers all thought we was weird for being into classical music and literature instead of GAA and horses.

later12

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Just because he didn't come clean on what happened doesn't mean he guaranteed the banks single-handedly and it certainly doesn't mean he has taken it to his grave.

Well, in fact he probably has effectively taken much of it to his grave.

Other politicians, in the twilight of their years, recline and wax lyrical about the hard decisions they were faced with, their human limits, and can be absolved of their mistakes. Just look at Garret FitzGerald, a living walking economic tornado who brought the country to the cliff face of economic ruin in the 1980s, and who, two autobiographies and blame shifting and a lot of grey hair later, was so heavily and publicly mourned in death.

Brian Cowen will write his own biography, or have it written, or otherwise attempt to diminish his culpability in words or in writing well into his greying years. So too will Bertie Ahern and Charlie McCreevey.

But Brian Lenihan has gone into the ether without saying a word to justify himself at the expense of his party or the political leadership. No doubt he did deserve blame, but was the blame his alone? Without a defense to his name, or personal explanations beyond what is already public, Brian Lenihan certainly will be a convenient bad guy for any historian looking back on the debt crisis.

The others, like Garrett FitzGerald had, will have plenty of time to write their excuses.

Spudmonkey

Di0genes wrote: »

As Minister for Finance the decision rests on him not on any of his advisers.

That's true but I'm sure it was made on advice from said advisers as opposed to a midnight call made to a certain McWilliams. He therefore didn't just decide to implement it over a casual cup of coffee.

Di0genes wrote: »

Actually the bank guarantee is something he bequeathed to our children, they'll be taking that part of Lenihan's legacy to their graves.

And to his own. Which is why I'd like to believe his decision was made with the best of intentions.

Spudmonkey

later10 wrote: »

Well, in fact he probably has effectively taken much of it to his grave.

Other politicians, in the twilight of their years, recline and wax lyrical about the hard decisions they were faced with, their human limits, and can be absolved of their mistakes. Just look at Garret FitzGerald, a living walking economic tornado who brought the country to the cliff face of economic ruin in the 1980s, and who, two autobiographies and blame shifting and a lot of grey hair later, was so heavily and publicly mourned in death.

Brian Cowen will write his own biography, or have it written, or otherwise attempt to diminish his culpability in words or in writing well into his greying years. So too will Bertie Ahern and Charlie McCreevey.

But Brian Lenihan has gone into the ether without saying a word to justify himself at the expense of his party or the political leadership. No doubt he did deserve blame, but was the blame his alone? Without a defense to his name, or personal explanations beyond what is already public, Brian Lenihan certainly will be a convenient bad guy for any historian looking back on the debt crisis.

The others, like Garrett FitzGerald had, will have plenty of time to write their excuses.

This is true. Time didn't afford him excuses unlike Bertie who got time to peddle his book.