Jehovah Witness

The Quadratic Equation

kjw47 :

Question, why do you believe Jesus Christ is really an angel ?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Rev 3:12

Some truth you have .
You claim to preach but you run from every question!

“We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.” —The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1968, p. 13

You have been told to run away from this discussion haven't you?
In spite of the contradiction with "examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization...If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination."?
You realise the Watchtower states you should examine it?
Why are you running from such an examination?

But you can't even admit that. no instead you run. The only occult shown here is the occult history of the Watchtower. I have never been associated with JW or even studied them in dept until a few weeks ago when the called to my door and I invited them in.

kjw47

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

kjw47 :

Question, why do you believe Jesus Christ is really an angel ?

The first and last directly created by God( only begotten son) , all other things created through him. Created as Michael the archangel--upon his return he comes with the archangels voice,his voice-1 thess 4:16) Jesus has a God-rev 3:12) God does not have a God) Jesus subjects himself to his God and Father after his 1000 year reign as king is over and he hands back the kingdom to his God and Father-1 cor 15:24-28) God doesnt subject himself to anyone. Jesus tells everyone at John 17:1-6 that the Father is the only true God--same thing his followers taught- 1 cor 8:6)Psalm 83:18= Jehovah is the most high (God)

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Some truth you have .
You claim to preach but you run from every question!

“We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.” —The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1968, p. 13

You have been told to run away from this discussion haven't you?
In spite of the contradiction with "examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization...If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination."?
You realise the Watchtower states you should examine it?
Why are you running from such an examination?

But you can't even admit that. no instead you run. The only occult shown here is the occult history of the Watchtower. I have never been associated with JW or even studied them in dept until a few weeks ago when the called to my door and I invited them in.

I am not here to argue--i am here to share truths--You couldnt possibly know what all of the watchtowers said from years ago in a few weeks time. You are wise to examine what is what, i have allready done just that and i hope you find your way to the narrow path brother.

homer911

kjw47 wrote: »

I am not here to argue--i am here to share truths--You couldnt possibly know what all of the watchtowers said from years ago in a few weeks time. You are wise to examine what is what, i have allready done just that and i hope you find your way to the narrow path brother.

Where what you have been taught (brainwashed?) into believing as truths is contrary to universally accepted christian teaching then you have to be prepared to defend those teachings - ie argue

Jimitime summed it up best...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76383758&postcount=139

You wont recognise the truth until the Holy Spirit enables you to..

o1s1n

kjw47 wrote: »

Waco,heavens gate, jonestown is no comparison to 7,500,000 strong with 18,000,000 plus attending the memorial..

The 18,000,000 attending the memorial is as bad as Catholicism claiming lapsed catholics as part of their number.

The last time I was at a JW memorial, the local disfellowshipped JW paedophile was there too (one of the reasons I never went to one of them again) are you happy to count people like that among the numbers you are claiming to? Because he would have been included in the memorial attendance count.

Also, I know a lot of JWs who love to quote that 'the path is narrow' - in that case, 18,000,000 seems a bit much for a narrow path?

kjw47 wrote: »

And why wouldnt they expect bad expieriences to follow them when satan is at war with them for trying to learn and share truth--.

So, in a nutshell -

The organization is absolved from all past (and future) mistakes because 'the light will get brighter'.

The organization cannot be held responsible for any bad experiences people have with them because 'satan is at war with them'.

You've literally given this group of men the power to do anything they want and not be held accountable. It's increadibly wrong, obvious to see and yet you don't see it?

kjw47 wrote: »

Time will tell us all what is what--but one thing is for certain that will be known as Ezekial brought out many times--- They will have to know i am Jehovah.

So are you able to put a timeframe in place now for this? Or has the organization decided to remain vague now for once as they come out looking foolish when they get it wrong?

The Quadratic Equation

kjw47 wrote: »

The first and last directly created by God( only begotten son) , all other things created through him. Created as Michael the archangel--upon his return he comes with the archangels voice,his voice-1 thess 4:16) Jesus has a God-rev 3:12) God does not have a God) Jesus subjects himself to his God and Father after his 1000 year reign as king is over and he hands back the kingdom to his God and Father-1 cor 15:24-28) God doesnt subject himself to anyone. Jesus tells everyone at John 17:1-6 that the Father is the only true God--same thing his followers taught- 1 cor 8:6)Psalm 83:18= Jehovah is the most high (God)

From my reading thess 4:16 says he has an archangel's voice, but it does not say he is an archangel,
and if Jesus is Michael the archangel in particular (if I've got that right), where does it say he is Michael in the scriptures ? or where are you getting that from ?

kjw47

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

From my reading thess 4:16 says he has an archangel's voice, but it does not say he is an archangel,
and if Jesus is Michael the archangel in particular (if I've got that right), where does it say he is Michael in the scriptures ? or where are you getting that from ?

There is only 1 arachangel in Gods written word-Michael-- it is Jesus,s voice-- there was no Jesus the first 4000 years of mankind in the ot--the being Michael came and became Jesus as a mortal. It doesnt directly say that Michael became Jesus except the clue at 1 thess 4:16 and the fact that a being from the ot came down here to become Jesus as a mortal. It wasnt Jehovah who came- Jehovah is the Father.
Another clue would be that when Gods word said he would bruise you in the head and you would bruise him in the heel was speaking about the battle between Jesus( Michael) and satan-- and as we see in revelation Michael lead Gods armies vs satan and his demons and cast them to the earth--Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth at Harmageddon. Michael is Jesus--The firstborn of all creation--The first and last directly created by God, then all other things created through him.

kjw47

o1s1n wrote: »

The 18,000,000 attending the memorial is as bad as Catholicism claiming lapsed catholics as part of their number.

The last time I was at a JW memorial, the local disfellowshipped JW paedophile was there too (one of the reasons I never went to one of them again) are you happy to count people like that among the numbers you are claiming to? Because he would have been included in the memorial attendance count.

Also, I know a lot of JWs who love to quote that 'the path is narrow' - in that case, 18,000,000 seems a bit much for a narrow path?



So, in a nutshell -

The organization is absolved from all past (and future) mistakes because 'the light will get brighter'.

The organization cannot be held responsible for any bad experiences people have with them because 'satan is at war with them'.

You've literally given this group of men the power to do anything they want and not be held accountable. It's increadibly wrong, obvious to see and yet you don't see it?



So are you able to put a timeframe in place now for this? Or has the organization decided to remain vague now for once as they come out looking foolish when they get it wrong?

I guess thats why you arent the judge--if a pedophile repents God accepts it-- who are we to say that our sins are less than his to God--many sins will keep one out of Gods kingdom--I guess that is why Jesus suggested --he who is without sin cast the first stone. Here is an example of a sin that is very gross to God--a man and a woman having sex out of marriage--ever done that one?? It will keep one out of Gods kingdom-1 cor 6:9-11--So if God accepts one who is repentent shouldnt we as well?
18,000,000 doesnt mean they all walk the narrow path, and out of 7,000,000,000 that is few anyways.
God will hold whats accountable to each individual. God sees everything -humans cannot see past their own little worlds. There has never been perfection in imperfect mortals.
Satan gai ned control of the israelites over and over again back in the ot, but they corrected their errors and came back to being in Gods good graces over and over again-- same now--satan gets bad things in and they need to be corrected--the JW, s do just that--no one else does--they think they are standing strong which Gods word warned against.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

I am not here to argue--i am here to share truths--

So why don't you TRUTHFULLY answer the simple questions I put to you?
They are simple questions about whether you believe it is correct to use astrology and pyramidology and talk to the dead and to angels?

You have dodged answering them truthfully. I suspect it is because those that tell you what to say don't know what to tell you. But don't mind about that . Just answer truthfully what you think about these things.

Otherwise how can you claim to have the truth when you don't even know what your own people believe?

Do they believe they commune with the dead elders of past times?
Simple truth - YES or NO?
You said they repented. for what did they repent?
Do they believe that the leaders of the Watchtower in the past practiced what they now call Satanic influenced practices?

You couldn't possibly know what all of the watchtowers said from years ago in a few weeks time.

Don't blame me if you don't know the Watchtowers own literature.
Go and look it up if you think I am not telling you the truth.
Go on. Tell me if anything I stated was not true.
Anything at all.
I'm happy to retract it if you find out the JW's own books didn't say it.
Actually I really would like you to go and study your own literature.

I have a copy of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.
I never even heard of it before about two weeks ago.
I then went looking for a copy so I could discuss it with the JW's that called in.
I also get an interlinear hebrew version of the Old Testament to show then the word Jehovah ( or the YHVH or tetragrammiton in Hebrew) does not appear in the first chapter of Genesis.
[quot]
You don't think you can learn about old books . Look at this written over 2,000 years ago by Julius Caesar.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/caesar/gall1.shtml

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.

You too can read the entire 54 commentaries on Caesar's ( Julius) Gallic wars
All Gall is divided in three parts , one of which the Belgians inhabit another the Aquitanians a third which in their language they call Celts and in out Gauls.

Here is a translation site
http://www.online-literature.com/caesar/gallicwar/1/

That site also has
The King James Bible
The Koran (Al-Qur'an)
The Religion of the Samurai
Tao Teh King
Hebraic Literature

http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1.htm
has an interlinear hebrew note God isnt Yahwed or Jehovah in Genesis 1 but Elohim a PLURAL noun

It is called using a library and doing research.

I honestly hadn't seen any of this a month ago. I certainly never did any detailed study on it before December . To be fair it might have been three or four weeks because Christmas took up isome time and ironically the JW visitors didnt arrive around Christmas.
I looked into it over the Christmas because the JWs gave me a magasine on the trinity with several references on nineteenth century Bible translators. I had to look them up and look up their Greek translations of the Bible and their references and see if what they said was the whole TRUTH. It wasn't! It was quotemined and misquoted and some of the translators claimed they were guided by "spirit"

Ill bet you didn't know that about the KIV. I certainly didn't until a few weeks ago.

You are wise to examine what is what, i have allready done just that and i hope you find your way to the narrow path brother.

I certainly hope you can broaden you mind and actually read the Watchtowers own contradictions.
Why can't you explain the contradictions to me?
Do you accept that people should speak to the dead or spirits or not?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

The first and last directly created by God( only begotten son)

1. Begotten NOT MADE
If all that was made was made through him(John 1:3) and for him( Colossians 1:16, Romans 11:36), why add word “other-allos” in Col 1:15-17?



2. "first born" and "first created" are different
If firstborn means first created, then what does firstborn of the dead mean?( or what does Israel(Exo. 4:22) and Ephraim(Jer. 31:9) been firstborn mean?)

If Only-begotten(John 3:16) means Jesus was Jehovah’s first creation, how then do we explain Isaac(Hebrews 11:17) being the only-begotten of Abraham and not Ishmael?

, all other things created through him.

Again something I found in the last few weeks
the word "other" has been added to the Greek by JW translators!

Colossians 1:16-17 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation ( the JW's own translation) the English under the Greek reads "all" as in “all (things)”

But their Translation into English reads: " “all other things”. And the translators do the same elsewhere. Look under the Greek and see if the english word "other" is there in
Philippians  2:9



It is sometimes quoted without brackets around "other" in the publications [e.g. WT, 4/1/93, page 11]. Addition of “other” makes Jesus a thing.  The brackets are not present in the 1950 edition of the NWT.
Historical documents show that the first Christians and Apostolic Fathers prayed and worshiped Christ Jesus as God. Even the translators of the KIT say this elsewhere in their works but the WT don't mention it. they also refer to communing with spirits and the WT don't mention that either. I can supply you with the reference but you won't even read it will you. A reference to the very translators of this KIT Greek aND YOU WON'T READ IT!
Do you take your belief from the Bible or the Watchtower?

Jesus subjects himself to his God and Father

Yes a boy submits to the will of his father but both are human. Jesus subjects to the will of the Father but both are God.

Why is Christ Jesus calling himself the first and the last?(Revelation 1:17-18)

The Quadratic Equation

kjw47 wrote: »

There is only 1 arachangel in Gods written word-Michael-- it is Jesus,s voice-- there was no Jesus the first 4000 years of mankind in the ot--the being Michael came and became Jesus as a mortal. It doesnt directly say that Michael became Jesus except the clue at 1 thess 4:16 and the fact that a being from the ot came down here to become Jesus as a mortal. It wasnt Jehovah who came- Jehovah is the Father.
Another clue would be that when Gods word said he would bruise you in the head and you would bruise him in the heel was speaking about the battle between Jesus( Michael) and satan-- and as we see in revelation Michael lead Gods armies vs satan and his demons and cast them to the earth--Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth at Harmageddon. Michael is Jesus--The firstborn of all creation--The first and last directly created by God, then all other things created through him.

Thanks kjw47, but can you really point me to the verse in scripture that actually says Jesus is Michael, or where else are you getting this from ?

My reading of scripture finds that Jesus Christ is superior to the angels.

I find that in Hebrews 1 in particular, the entire chapter is devoted to it.

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in
4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

See here the sharp contrast between angels and the Son of God :

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Fathera”b?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”c?
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”d

7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”e
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”f
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”g
13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”h?
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?


Also, elsewhere in scripture, angels consistently refuse worship

"Be careful! Do not do that! …Worship God," Revelation 22:8,9

but the Fathers command concerning the Son is, "Let all Gods angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:6).

From this I don't think Jesus was an angel.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

There is only 1 arachangel in Gods written word-Michael

WRONG!
Ever Heard of archangel Gabriel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy
The word "archangel" comes from the Greek αρχάγγελος (archangělǒs), meaning chief angel, a translation of the Hebrew רב־מלאך (rav-mal'ákh)

Only Archangels Gabriel and Michael are mentioned by name in the New Testament.

The name of the archangel Raphael appears only in the Book of Tobit (Tobias). Tobit is considered Deuterocanonical by Roman Catholics (both Eastern and Western Rites) and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The Book of Tobit is also read by Anglicans and Lutherans, but not by Reformed Christians or Baptists. Raphael said to Tobias that he was "one of the seven who stand before the Lord", and it is generally believed that Michael and Gabriel are two of the other six.

Another possible interpretation of the seven archangels is that the seven are the seven spirits of God that stand before the throne described in the Book of Enoch, and in the Book of Revelation.

That leaves FOUR!

A fourth Archangel is Uriel whose name literally means "Fire of God" or "Light of God." Uriel's name is the only one not mentioned in the Lutheran Bible, but plays, however, a prominent role in an apocryphon read by Anglican and Russian Orthodox Christians: The second Book of Esdras (fourth Books of Esdras in the Latin Vulgate). In the book he unveils seven prophecies to the prophet Ezra, after whom the book is named. He also plays a role in the apocryphal Book of Enoch, which is considered canonical only by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In the late 5th to early 6th century, Pseudo-Dionysius gives them as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Chamuel, Jophiel, and Zadkiel.

The Eastern Orthodoxy tradition venerates Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel, and Barachiel.

In the Coptic Orthodox tradition the seven archangels are named as Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Suriel, Zadakiel, Sarathiel and Aniel.

The Roman Catholic Church only explicitly names 3 archangels: Gabriel, Michael and Raphael. These are the only three named in the new testament of the Bible. However, the same passages that name Raphael in the book of Tobit also states that he is "one of the seven who stand before God." The other names can be derived from traditional Jewish teaching.

In Anglican and Episcopal tradition, there are three or four archangels in its calendar for September 29 feast for St. Michael and All Angels (also called Michaelmas: namely Gabriel, Michael and Raphael,[3] and often, Uriel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels


Depending on the actual written text iof the Bible and other books you are out by somewhere between two and six
Archangels.

Satan by the Way is considered a fallen cherub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel
Fallen angels are identified with the Watchers

Michael is Jesus--The firstborn of all creation--The first and last directly created by God, then all other things created through him.

If firstborn means first created, then what does firstborn of the dead mean?( or what does Israel (Exo. 4:22) and Ephraim (Jer. 31:9) been firstborn mean?)

And Why did JW's worship him until 1954?

Of the countless alterations in Witness doctrine, the one regarding the Worship of Jesus is most important of all. The major issues concerning the history and doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses are prevalent within the Watchtower doctrine of Jesus, clearly highlighting the manner in which the leaders operate. These pandemic symptoms are threefold.

Significant teachings change
The Watchtower misquotes its sources
Current doctrines are not necessarily correct


Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship....

Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him.

Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157

Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man.

Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216

In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience.

Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15

This is RUSSELL the founder of JW who the Watchtower say is in heaven saying something
that the Watchtower say is not truth!

Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy."

Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

In 1945, Knorr amended the Watchtower's legal Charter. Included within the Charter was the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus.

In the 1950's, the Watchtower changed their doctrine on Jesus to coincide with the release of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.


And again I only found out the above in the last hour. I never knew about it before.
I just did some research and some reading.
I have however read the Watchtower for the last two years or so when JWs left it at my door. So I was aware of the type of stuff they teach and what did and didn't fit with mainstream Christianity. . I just never looked into their own sources.

Though a Witness is bluntly told not to worship Jesus, the Charter was not amended to reflect this new doctrine until 1999. Therefore, for 45 years Witnesses were counselled against worshipping Jesus even though to do so was stated as the express reason for the existence of the Watchtower Society. This is despite the fact that it is considered idolatry to worship and pray to Jesus and will result in a Witness being disfellowshipped. It is interesting to see how the Watchtower dealt with having in its charter that Jesus is to be worshipped. They either misquoted it or avoided it completely.

The Yearbook of 1969 p.50 leaves the words "and Christ Jesus" out altogether, cheekily replacing them with dots.

"for public Christian worship of Almighty God … ; to arrange for"

kjw47

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Thanks kjw47, but can you really point me to the verse in scripture that actually says Jesus is Michael, or where else are you getting this from ?

My reading of scripture finds that Jesus Christ is superior to the angels.

I find that in Hebrews 1 in particular, the entire chapter is devoted to it.

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in
4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

See here the sharp contrast between angels and the Son of God :

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Fathera”b?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”c?
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”d

7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”e
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”f
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”g
13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”h?
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?


Also, elsewhere in scripture, angels consistently refuse worship

"Be careful! Do not do that! …Worship God," Revelation 22:8,9

but the Fathers command concerning the Son is, "Let all Gods angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:6).

From this I don't think Jesus was an angel.

Yes archangel means chief of the angels--He is superior.
Trinity translators erred to fit their teaching at Heb 1:6-- the greek word for worship to God is also obesiance to a king and also 3 other meanings--obesiance is the correct usage. Jesus is king.
In # 13 above-- to which of the angels did God ever say--sit at my right hand until i make your enemies a footstool for your feet.--- Did Jesus sit at his own right hand? the I is obviously greater than the one sitting at the right hand--the i is the power.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

WRONG!
Ever Heard of archangel Gabriel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy
The word "archangel" comes from the Greek αρχάγγελος (archangělǒs), meaning chief angel, a translation of the Hebrew רב־מלאך (rav-mal'ákh)

Only Archangels Gabriel and Michael are mentioned by name in the New Testament.

The name of the archangel Raphael appears only in the Book of Tobit (Tobias). Tobit is considered Deuterocanonical by Roman Catholics (both Eastern and Western Rites) and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The Book of Tobit is also read by Anglicans and Lutherans, but not by Reformed Christians or Baptists. Raphael said to Tobias that he was "one of the seven who stand before the Lord", and it is generally believed that Michael and Gabriel are two of the other six.

Another possible interpretation of the seven archangels is that the seven are the seven spirits of God that stand before the throne described in the Book of Enoch, and in the Book of Revelation.

That leaves FOUR!

A fourth Archangel is Uriel whose name literally means "Fire of God" or "Light of God." Uriel's name is the only one not mentioned in the Lutheran Bible, but plays, however, a prominent role in an apocryphon read by Anglican and Russian Orthodox Christians: The second Book of Esdras (fourth Books of Esdras in the Latin Vulgate). In the book he unveils seven prophecies to the prophet Ezra, after whom the book is named. He also plays a role in the apocryphal Book of Enoch, which is considered canonical only by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In the late 5th to early 6th century, Pseudo-Dionysius gives them as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Chamuel, Jophiel, and Zadkiel.

The Eastern Orthodoxy tradition venerates Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel, and Barachiel.

In the Coptic Orthodox tradition the seven archangels are named as Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Suriel, Zadakiel, Sarathiel and Aniel.

The Roman Catholic Church only explicitly names 3 archangels: Gabriel, Michael and Raphael. These are the only three named in the new testament of the Bible. However, the same passages that name Raphael in the book of Tobit also states that he is "one of the seven who stand before God." The other names can be derived from traditional Jewish teaching.

In Anglican and Episcopal tradition, there are three or four archangels in its calendar for September 29 feast for St. Michael and All Angels (also called Michaelmas: namely Gabriel, Michael and Raphael,[3] and often, Uriel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels


Depending on the actual written text iof the Bible and other books you are out by somewhere between two and six
Archangels.

Satan by the Way is considered a fallen cherub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel
Fallen angels are identified with the Watchers




If firstborn means first created, then what does firstborn of the dead mean?( or what does Israel (Exo. 4:22) and Ephraim (Jer. 31:9) been firstborn mean?)

And Why did JW's worship him until 1954?

Of the countless alterations in Witness doctrine, the one regarding the Worship of Jesus is most important of all. The major issues concerning the history and doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses are prevalent within the Watchtower doctrine of Jesus, clearly highlighting the manner in which the leaders operate. These pandemic symptoms are threefold.

Significant teachings change
The Watchtower misquotes its sources
Current doctrines are not necessarily correct


Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.


Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157


Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216

Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15

This is RUSSELL the founder of JW who the Watchtower say is in heaven saying something
that the Watchtower say is not truth!

Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.


Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

In 1945, Knorr amended the Watchtower's legal Charter. Included within the Charter was the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus.

In the 1950's, the Watchtower changed their doctrine on Jesus to coincide with the release of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.


And again I only found out the above in the last hour. I never knew about it before.
I just did some research and some reading.
I have however read the Watchtower for the last two years or so when JWs left it at my door. So I was aware of the type of stuff they teach and what did and didn't fit with mainstream Christianity. . I just never looked into their own sources.

Though a Witness is bluntly told not to worship Jesus, the Charter was not amended to reflect this new doctrine until 1999. Therefore, for 45 years Witnesses were counselled against worshipping Jesus even though to do so was stated as the express reason for the existence of the Watchtower Society. This is despite the fact that it is considered idolatry to worship and pray to Jesus and will result in a Witness being disfellowshipped. It is interesting to see how the Watchtower dealt with having in its charter that Jesus is to be worshipped. They either misquoted it or avoided it completely.

The Yearbook of 1969 p.50 leaves the words "and Christ Jesus" out altogether, cheekily replacing them with dots.

"for public Christian worship of Almighty God … ; to arrange for"

Yes Gabriel is mentioned in the 66 recognized books that make up the bible--He is not called archangel in them.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Yes Gabriel is mentioned in the 66 recognized books that make up the bible--He is not called archangel in them.

But what abput all the ammended/bad translation parts to the Bibles i mentioned you seem to have forgotten about them?

The Watchtower seem to make a habit of making "ammendments" which say the exact opposite of what they said before and not telling people about it for decades.

Though a Witness is bluntly told not to worship Jesus, the Charter was not amended to reflect this new doctrine until 1999. Therefore, for 45 years Witnesses were counselled against worshipping Jesus even though to do so was stated as the express reason for the existence of the Watchtower Society.

The Quadratic Equation

kjw47 wrote: »

Trinity translators erred to fit their teaching at Heb 1:6-- the greek word for worship to God is also obesiance to a king and also 3 other meanings--obesiance is the correct usage.

Hmm I'm not so sure.

I've found the following :

The 1970 edition of the N.W.T. reads "worship" in Heb. 1:6, but this was changed to "obeisance".

and the 1879 issue of the Watchtower magazine says, "His (Jesus') position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, `having all power in heaven and earth.' Hence it is said, `Let all the angels of God worship him,"

Now you might claim 'new light' in 1970, but as your founder said in the 1881, February edition of the Zion's Watchtower, "A new view of truth can never contradict a former truth. New Light never extinguishes old light but adds to it"

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

But what abput all the ammended/bad translation parts to the Bibles i mentioned you seem to have forgotten about them?

The Watchtower seem to make a habit of making "ammendments" which say the exact opposite of what they said before and not telling people about it for decades.

Though a Witness is bluntly told not to worship Jesus, the Charter was not amended to reflect this new doctrine until 1999. Therefore, for 45 years Witnesses were counselled against worshipping Jesus even though to do so was stated as the express reason for the existence of the Watchtower Society.

What the fds does is between them and God--you cannot possibly expect someone to know the answer to the amended charter being put off if it is the case.
Yes they do make corrections to bad teachings, just like it has occurred throughout the history of Gods people--because satan is at war with them and he is a very powerful, cunning being who does infiltrate Gods true religion, and as throughout the written history corrections are needed to remain in good standing---back in the ot the israelite leaders killed Gods prophets yet were still his religion. He didnt give up on them until they rejected his son. Because they kept on making corrections even if it took time.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

What the fds does is between them and God--

that includes lying about child sexual abusers and protecting them does it?
It includes lying to and keeping members in the dark about changes to their own scriptures?
It includes not referring to the changes they made to policies which stated Jesus was God?
It includes not mentioning the links between their official greek translators of the KIT and their use of "spirit guides" ?
It includes the changes (not mentione4d) in policy of talking to the dead and to angels?
It includes not mentioning changes in policy with respect to links to occult practices like pyramidology?

These are the people telling you how to think and you trust them so much when quite clearly they Worshipped Christ 50 years ago and don't tell anyone about that today? Or about all the ( unsupported by anyone with any knowledge of Greek) changes they made to Bible and other scriptures to agree with their change in policy. And they made several such 180- degree changes - not a case of light getting brighter but policy and stated beliefs being totally reversed!

you cannot possibly expect someone to know the answer to the amended charter being put off if it is the case.

I can and do expect it! It is a matter of public record and can be checked with the public registrar. You can also check your own publications for the howling reversals in belief.

Yes they do make corrections to bad teachings, just like it has occurred throughout the history of Gods people

No it hasen't! No christian group ever stated they worshipped Christ because he was God and then later stated he was not God but the Arch Angel Michael= and then never told their congregatiojn that they used to believe he was God.

--because satan is at war with them and he is a very powerful, cunning being who does infiltrate Gods true religion,

You are not at war with Satan you are at war with logic!
REad your own books! The hierarchy told JW's to worship Jesus because he was God and then they told you not to worship him because he definitely not God.

If they told you tomorrow to Worship Jesus you would do it wouldn;t you? Because your belief is based on a blind faith in the Watchtower and not on the actual facts of 180 degree changes in belief from believing Christ =God to believing Christ = not God.

and as throughout the written history corrections are needed to remain in good standing---

Nonsense! You don't make a "correction" to say one day Jesus is God and another he isnt or one day say "We know this translation is true because dead people communicated it to us " and another day say "communicating with the dead is Satanic and anyone who does it is not to be trusted"

He didnt give up on them until they rejected his son. Because they kept on making corrections even if it took time.

If the Watchtower told you tomorrow the Trinity was true you would believe them wouldn't you?

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

that includes lying about child sexual abusers and protecting them does it?
It includes lying to and keeping members in the dark about changes to their own scriptures?
It includes not referring to the changes they made to policies which stated Jesus was God?
It includes not mentioning the links between their official greek translators of the KIT and their use of "spirit guides" ?
It includes the changes (not mentione4d) in policy of talking to the dead and to angels?
It includes not mentioning changes in policy with respect to links to occult practices like pyramidology?

These are the people telling you how to think and you trust them so much when quite clearly they Worshipped Christ 50 years ago and don't tell anyone about that today? Or about all the ( unsupported by anyone with any knowledge of Greek) changes they made to Bible and other scriptures to agree with their change in policy. And they made several such 180- degree changes - not a case of light getting brighter but policy and stated beliefs being totally reversed!


I can and do expect it! It is a matter of public record and can be checked with the public registrar. You can also check your own publications for the howling reversals in belief.



No it hasen't! No christian group ever stated they worshipped Christ because he was God and then later stated he was not God but the Arch Angel Michael= and then never told their congregatiojn that they used to believe he was God.



You are not at war with Satan you are at war with logic!
REad your own books! The hierarchy told JW's to worship Jesus because he was God and then they told you not to worship him because he definitely not God.

If they told you tomorrow to Worship Jesus you would do it wouldn;t you? Because your belief is based on a blind faith in the Watchtower and not on the actual facts of 180 degree changes in belief from believing Christ =God to believing Christ = not God.



Nonsense! You don't make a "correction" to say one day Jesus is God and another he isnt or one day say "We know this translation is true because dead people communicated it to us " and another day say "communicating with the dead is Satanic and anyone who does it is not to be trusted"




If the Watchtower told you tomorrow the Trinity was true you would believe them wouldn't you?

Wallow in the darkness apostate--i have nothing to say to you--do not respond to my posts.

PDN

kjw47 wrote: »

Wallow in the darkness apostate--i have nothing to say to you--do not respond to my posts.

Unfortunately, in an internet discussion forum, even apostates who wallow in the darkness are free to respond to your posts.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Wallow in the darkness apostate--i have nothing to say to you--do not respond to my posts.

Is this how the Watchtower deal with actual published facts from their own literature?
Stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it is not there?
Your "corrections" i.e. mistranslations are riddled with errors lies and coverups.
You hand your own conscience over to the Watchtower and parrot what they say and not from Christian teaching or the even your own mistranslated Bible.
Senior JWs have left your organization because you cover up for child abusers.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Is this how the Watchtower deal with actual published facts from their own literature?
Stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it is not there?
Your "corrections" i.e. mistranslations are riddled with errors lies and coverups.
You hand your own conscience over to the Watchtower and parrot what they say and not from Christian teaching or the even your own mistranslated Bible.
Senior JWs have left your organization because you cover up for child abusers.

I see you can try and rip a religion apart--but havent tried to teach me 1 single truth out of Gods word--do you know any? Here is 1 you refuse to listen to Gods son about--- John 17:1-6--Jesus says the one who sent him is the only true God-- John 5:30 reveals who sent Jesus= The Father-- so Jesus is telling everyone that the Father is the only true God-- and he is backed up by Paul at 1 cor 8:6-- this is what true christians taught and were taught back then and now--which proves that catholocism translators erred in certain greek to english word meanings to fit council lies that are misleading billions into breaking Gods #1 commandment on a daily basis by serving a false non existent trinity--- then one can also apply a house divided( trinity religions ) will not stand--obviously not the house of God then, because his house will stand. His house makes corrections to errors. Just like they did all throughout the ot.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

I see you can try and rip a religion apart--but havent tried to teach me 1 single truth out of Gods word--do you know any?

Wrong!
I posted plenty of bible references - including the doctored ones by the Watchtower.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76347902&postcount=123
Don't you remember- the message you replied to in your first post!
Amd now you seem to have forgotten or recieved "new light" that I didnt refer to the Bible at all.
Like your usual "light" it is in fact a contradiction of the actual facts.

How about message 129?

The following occurrences of the word “God”, in the WT’s own New World Translation, are translated with a capital “G” even though there is no definite article, no “the”, present: John 3:2; John 13:3; 1 Thess. 2:5, 1 Pet. 4:10,11 (four occurrences of the word “God”, two with the article, two without, yet all four are translated by the WT as “God”, capital “G”! Look them up in the Watchtowers KIT.

Or in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76401610&postcount=157

Jesus has been under the authority of the Father because this is how the Trinity functions as 1 Corinthians 15:28 explains:

“When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

Throughout Scripture, we read how the Father directs the Son (1 Corinthians 11:3) and Holy Spirit (John 3:34; 14:16). That is why Jesus calls the Father “God” when He is in His Divine Nature. This would be like your son calling you “the Man of the House”. When your son calls you “the Man”, he does not mean to imply that he is less human than you, does he? Of course not! So, it is with Jesus calling the Father “My God”. He is not saying that the He is less “God” because the Father is His God. Rather, He is demonstrating that He is still under the authority of His Father God.

In addition to seeing Jesus and the Holy Spirit under the authority of the Father, we also read that the Son directs the Holy Spirit under the will of the Father (Galatians 4:6; John 15:26). So just as in a family where the wife and children follow the lead of the father (1 Corinthians 11:3), so it is with the order of the Trinity.

If you expect a wife to follow her husband do you think she is less human for doing that?

Here is 1 you refuse to listen to Gods son about--- John 17:1-6--Jesus says the one who sent him is the only true God-- John 5:30 reveals who sent Jesus= The Father-- so Jesus is telling everyone that the Father is the only true God-- and he is backed up by Paul at 1 cor 8:6-- this is what true christians taught and were taught back then and now--

ALREADY ANSWERED in 157 but you ignored the answer then.

which proves that catholocism translators erred in certain greek to english word meanings to fit council lies that are misleading billions into breaking Gods #1 commandment on a daily basis by serving a false non existent trinity---

It proves nothing of the sort. And all different types of Protestant translators also think your JW knowledge of Greek is appaling.

The translators you list which you claim corrected "errors" I have shown claimed to speak tot he dead and to spirits. But you ignored that too!

then one can also apply a house divided( trinity religions ) will not stand--obviously not the house of God then, because his house will stand. His house makes corrections to errors. Just like they did all throughout the ot.

dealt with already please pay attention - back in message 155

The verse following "a house divided will not stand"
Jesus goes on to say : 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The Son of Man is a man the son of God is a person of the trinity as is the holy spirit.

But as to houses divided Jesus is here referring to casting out demons being a trick by demons. He says why would demons attack themselves as they will destroy themselves? So I ask you does the Watchtower say that you should not speak to the dead?
So how come translators who you claim corrected "errors" like Gerber mentioned in message 151 claimed to speak to spirits?
Do the Watchtower think it is alright to commune with spirits?
A Watchtower divided can't stand either can it?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

What the fds does is between them and God.

What is "the fds"?

gimmebroadband

Jesus Christ is the ONLY person in history whose coming was foretold thousands of years before it happened. Holy Scriptures spoke of His place of birth, lineage, teaching and mission and the manner of His death etc. So-called prophets such as Muhammed, JW, Moonies, etc. weren't, they are false prophets, running a false religion!

Benny_Cake

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Jesus Christ is the ONLY person in history whose coming was foretold thousands of years before it happened. Holy Scriptures spoke of His place of birth, lineage, teaching and mission and the manner of His death etc. So-called prophets such as Muhammed, JW, Moonies, etc. weren't, they are false prophets, running a false religion!

I'm not sure what your point is here. Islam is a major world religion and I'd imagine most Muslims would agree with you on the Old Testament foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ. The Jehovahs Witnesses would also agree with this, and they have no prophets save those in the Bible which they would share with Christians. Obviously there are pretty big differences in how mainstream Christians and Jehovahs Witnesses interpret scripture, hence this thread. In any case, simply telling someone that they are following a false prophet doesn't usually convince them they are.

Benny_Cake

ISAW wrote: »

kjw47 wrote: »

What the fds does is between them and God.

What is "the fds"?

"Faithful and discreet slave", I'd imagine, ie; the 144,000 anointed.

ISAW

Benny_Cake wrote: »

IThe Jehovahs Witnesses would also agree with this, and they have no prophets save those in the Bible which they would share with Christians.

Sorry Benny but that isn't correct.
JW's have made a big issue of prophesy being a central identifier of the "true" religion.
To that end they have made several predictions - foiir example concerning the return of christ; Arnageddon and the end of the world etc.

All the prophesiees they made failed.
When they failed many ardent JW's left but the Watchtower just simply changed the predictions and rather than admit they got it wrong they justy claimed they were getting it more correct.
Of course anything (including another unfulfilled prrediction before it happens ) is "more correct" than 100% wrong!

Obviously there are pretty big differences in how mainstream Christians and Jehovahs Witnesses interpret scripture, hence this thread.

Almost all christians don't regard them as christian at all.
they don't interpret scripture! The Watchtower come up with an anonomous policy they claim is from god which they also claim comes from communicating with the dead and they change scripture to suit their ever changing dogmas. It is quite easy to see since they miss out on some parts of scripture and change these later on.

In any case, simply telling someone that they are following a false prophet doesn't usually convince them they are.

What might convince them is

1. Prophet makes a prophesy for a certain date.
2. Prophesy does not happen on that date

Or how about them saying "worship Jesus" for a half century and then saying "Jesus isnt God after all" for another half century. How can they reconcile their own founder worshipping Jesus if they consider that idolatry? How can he be in heaven if he was doing what they now claim is wrong?

Benny_Cake

ISAW: I was just making the point that it doesn't make much sense to compare Jehovahs Witnesses to Muslims. I would fully accepted that the Watchtower Society itself could be classed as a false prophet given the constant failed predictions and changes in doctrine. An awful lot of Jehovahs Witnesses are completely unaware of this though as it isn't an organisation that prizes independent research or scholarship - KJW probably isn't even supposed to be here debating! I wouldn't classify JW's as Christians, quasi-Christian or a religious group based on Christianity would be closer to the mark.