Jehovah Witness

ISAW

lecorbeau wrote: »

Ayla, our daughter often visits her best friends house and her best friend visits our house.

I agree its completely unacceptable that the best friends mother invited the JW around the evening our daughter was there.

Whats making me crazy is that my wife cannot see this !! .....

The best friends mother is NOT a family friend. My wife knows her as our daughter is in the same class as her daughter and the 2 children are best friends. However, the best friends mother is starting to become friends with my wife as a result of the 2 girls spending time together.

What do you think would happen if you invited the daughter's friend to your house and invited a theologian - or maybe a "shunned" JW over as well? whay can't the JW girl be allowed go into a Catholic church?

I would think the JW lady would not allow her daughter to come over or sit in a Catholic church. Even if there was no one in the church. Is that not double standards? Why is it only you who are accused of not "being open to other people" and the same does not apply to them? what are they afraid of? Are they afraid of learning about the real Bible and the changes they made it or the real practices in the their "church"?

lecorbeau

ISAW wrote: »

OP
What do you mean by this statement?

i.e does "leave me " mean
"leave me do the study"
or
"leave me and my daughter and live somewhere else"

My wife was asking me,

if she decides to join JW, will I break our marriage and leave her, my son and 2 daughters (my step daughters).

Txatxu Urki

lecorbeau, i believe you are in a serious situation here, by the sounds of it.
My advice, make contact with escapethematrix asap...it may prove more than beneficial.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

The basis central beliefs of christianity and the books of Christianity have been ther for 1500 to 2,000 years.

And considering the big changes, corruption etc in the RCC church over the past 1500 to 2000 years, if you must rubbish a religion then as someone else said the JW religion is no more worthy of derision as any other religion/cult, especially the RCC religion/cult."

lecorbeau

Update :

I sat down with my wife last night and talked about this for over 2 hours.

I showed her this thread and we both read different sites online to learn more about JW.

After becoming clearer on JW, my wife said she didnt agree with how strict and controlling JW is however she again spoke of some cousins in her country who are JW, who live a good life and have never shunned or tried to convert anyone.

I said I'll do everything to protect our daugther, and at 12 years old she is too young to be in the company of this woman who will influence her in the way of a JW.

My wife thanked me for all the research and for the concern I had for our daughter but reminded me that its her decision whether or not our daughter continues with the studying. I said, if she is interested in religion then why dont we educate her with several religions and let her decide which one she wants. I repeat again that this is NOT about religion for our daugther, this is about peer pressure from the friend and friends mother, but my wife is blind to this.

I have done what I can do, I have to accept what my wife chooses for our daughter. If this starts to have a negative effect on our daughter and if she started quoting what this woman tells her then I will not support this.

I really believe (hope) our daughter will get fed up of this after a few weeks.

I told my wife that I cannot and will not support my wife joining JW. This was very strong for me to say and its somewhat of an ultimatum. Not my style at all but I had to issue this.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

And considering the big changes, corruption etc in the RCC church over the past 1500 to 2000 years, if you must rubbish a religion then as someone else said the JW religion is no more worthy of derision as any other religion/cult, especially the RCC religion/cult."

I was referring to "core christianity" i.e roman Anglican Orthodox and a slw of other smaller groups e.g. Thomas Christians Old Catholics Syriac Eastern Rite etc.

But if you are saying the RCC is corrupt and a cult then ok where is your evidence and we can compare it to JW.

What do you mean by "cult"? what specific "big changes" or "corruption"?

Donatello

To the OP: I know it's not the same situation, but nonetheless, some of the advice here might be useful to you in terms of general principals:
http://www.chastitysf.com/q_child.htm

There are also some prayers there which might be useful.

I'm trying to be helpful, but if it is not helpful, then please disregard this post.

ISAW

lecorbeau wrote: »

Update :

I sat down with my wife last night and talked about this for over 2 hours.

... I said, if she is interested in religion then why dont we educate her with several religions and let her decide which one she wants. I repeat again that this is NOT about religion for our daugther, this is about peer pressure from the friend and friends mother, but my wife is blind to this.

I have done what I can do, I have to accept what my wife chooses for our daughter. If this starts to have a negative effect on our daughter and if she started quoting what this woman tells her then I will not support this.
...

I told my wife that I cannot and will not support my wife joining JW. This was very strong for me to say and its somewhat of an ultimatum. Not my style at all but I had to issue this.

1. Great that you are communicating
2. You have not done all you can do
3. while admirable the ultimatum of shunning is only copying the JWs

You stated you were a Catholic. Why don't you go down your local parish office and look into counciling and childrearing courses? they are free and worthwhile and allow both of you to learn together and apply it for the benefit of your family.

If your daughter has a thirst for knowledge you really should look into educating her in orthodox teachings first before going into waffle. There is a wealth of things to learn about and all the so called unanswerable questions are usually already answered by the Early church fathers.

go and read them Pre nicean and post nicean.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

1800 years before JWs tried a cop out on these changed scriptures and made several successive false prophesies.

gigino

Sofaspud wrote: »

I'm not a JW, I just don't think it's fair for you to criticise other branches of christianity because they're not the one you've chosen yourself.

Although you "chose" it in the same way she "chose" it, by being "recruited" into it before you could walk, talk or make any kind of decision, through baptism. It's extremely hypocritical for you to bad mouth another religion or its members for encouraging its membership upon others, when you encourage indoctrination before the choice can be made.

+1. And if someone landed from Mars and looked at the track record of the Roman Catholic church and the JW, there would be some questions to answer. Why did the RCC not excommunicate Hitler + Mussolini, and why did it cover up child abuse for so long etc etc? The RCC's stance on contraception - which most modern Catholics disregard now anyway - helped in a small way the world population to go from 1 billion to 7 billion in less than 200 years, with consequent effects on world peace, the environment , global warming etc.

The worst that can be said about the poor old Jehovas Witnesses is "Their doctrine of political neutrality and their refusal to serve in the military has led to imprisonment of members who refused conscription during World War II and at other times where national service has been compulsory. In Germany, as many as 12,000 Witnesses were sent to concentration camps,[278] and were identified by purple triangles; as many as 5000 died"

I do not think the JW is any worse than other religions / denominations.

georgieporgy

For the record, all members of the Nazi party were excommunicated in 1930 by the conferrence of German bishops and catholics were forbidden to join the party. (similar to the Church's pronouncements on the IRA).

the following link is well worth the read
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise.pdf

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

+1. And if someone landed from Mars and looked at the track record of the Roman Catholic church and the JW, there would be some questions to answer.

And what would inform the conscience of this "person from Mars"? onb what would theisr morality be based?

Why did the RCC not excommunicate Hitler + Mussolini,

the Italians were not Nazis. They were fascists yes but they didn't single out and persecute gypsies jews etc. like the Nazis. You should check your history. The RCC spoke out against Nazism and many clerics perished.

and why did it cover up child abuse for so long etc etc?

What is "so long"? Since the first century or since the 1950s?
The Church and state in some countries had an authoritarian culture where people regarded "gentlemen" or "higher classes" as something to look up to. Much as they do the Royal Family. Even today the Royals try to control the media reportage and don't want their dirty laundry washed in public. so one could claim it was the fault of Victorian or Edwardian moral culture that resulted in any coverup. There was not a committee in rome or instructions from a pope saying "we know about this -cover it up - it makes the church look bad"

The RCC's stance on contraception - which most modern Catholics disregard now anyway - helped in a small way the world population to go from 1 billion to 7 billion in less than 200 years,

That is nonsense. The world population is increasing in non Catholic countries like China and India.

with consequent effects on world peace, the environment , global warming etc.

LOL! The RCC is responsible for global warming! Give me a break!
Next you will say famine is because of overpopulation and the RCC is causing famine

The worst that can be said about the poor old Jehovas Witnesses is "Their doctrine of political neutrality and their refusal to serve in the military has led to imprisonment of members who refused conscription and at other times where national service has been compulsory.

That is not the worst can be said about them nor is it exclusive to them.

In Germany, as many as 12,000 Witnesses were sent to concentration camps and were identified by purple triangles as many as 5000 died"

And Stalinists killed many Nazis in their Gulags.Does that mean Naziism was a correct philosophy because some of them needlessly suffered. In fact many Jews were also killed by the nazis. Does that prove Judaism is a correct? So while i accept the JWs suffered needlessly and terribly under the nazis that does not make their philosophy right.

I do not think the JW is any worse than other religions / denominations.

so you keep saying. But you display an ignorance of history and have misreported it to what you think rather than produce any actual evidence.

GaylaBells02

that sounds difficult

PDN

Moderating Directions

If anyone wants to discuss the Roman Catholic Church and its relationship to Nazi Germany then please start a new thread.

If anyone wants to discuss the Roman Catholic Church in comparison to Protestant churches then please take it to the existing Protestant/Catholic Debate Thread.

If anyone wants to discuss the Jehovah's Witnesses then this is the thread for you.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

And what would inform the conscience of this "person from Mars"? onb what would theisr morality be based?

Thats a hypothetical question, but seeing as you ask, I would hazard a guess that in evaluating the Jehovas Witness religion they would compare it with other religions, and indeed compare its effect on those who were its adherents compared to those who had no religion at all.

I agree that nobody , from Mars or anywhere else, should criticise other branches of christianity because they're not the one they've chosen themselves...or the one they were "recruited" into before they could walk, talk or make any kind of decision, through baptism.

optogirl

ISAW wrote: »

What is "so long"? Since the first century or since the 1950s?
The Church and state in some countries had an authoritarian culture where people regarded "gentlemen" or "higher classes" as something to look up to. Much as they do the Royal Family. Even today the Royals try to control the media reportage and don't want their dirty laundry washed in public. so one could claim it was the fault of Victorian or Edwardian moral culture that resulted in any coverup. There was not a committee in rome or instructions from a pope saying "we know about this -cover it up - it makes the church look bad"
.

This is rubbish. The Vatican MOVED PAEDOPHILES from parish to parish. They did know and they did conspire to cover up. And when it comes to children being raped 'so long' is any amount of time - they should have been handed over to the police immediately instead of harboured & allowed to continue their vile crimes. This was happening from at least the 50's to the present day so blaming Edwardian or Victorian culture is a cop out of major proportions. Sorry for being led off topic but some things make my blood boil

Fanny Cradock

Read post 104, folks.

::EDIT::

Off topic posts will be deleted

For more on the above post see here

lecorbeau

Update :

Daughter came back from her "studying" and my wife sat down to ask her how it went. She said "ok" but we couldnt get much out of her.

My wife then told her if she is really interested in this religion then she must learn the rules (the list of what she cant do) and this includes NOT celebrating birthdays christmas etc. My wife explained that this would mean NO presents.
Immediately our daughter said "ah nooooo, I want my birthday present in October".

I think she will become less and less interested as the "teacher" goes through the rules with her. By the way, after how many sessions does this normally happen ? Do they give out the list on paper? in a book? how does it work ?

Im really convinced this is nothing to do with religion. Yesterday, there was a Mass on tv for Ascension and I called our daughter to have a look at the choir singing. After a few minutes she was bored and asked could she play the Wii.
I asked was she bored because it was a Catholic mass and she said no, she was bored because shes not interested

She is not yet aware of the 141 (?) rules that JW must abide by. Do I print these off and show her ? or let her learn herself and let her get fed up herself when she realises shes not getting presents ?

ISAW

lecorbeau wrote: »

Sorry, but can we please get back on track.

thanks

sorry I probably should have my PM is full so I couldn't PM that. and Others might be interested anyway.

The 141 things you cant do list is repetitive and you don't need to take all of them. Id say take 20 or so you think she won't like. I would not ask her to produce this printed list . Understand the ideas of Theocratic Warfare i.e. JWs believe lying or hiding the truth is justified. http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/theocratic-war.php

The point is JW take their instructions from The Watchtower and not from anywhere else.

Get her to do the 20 question quiz and see if she is likely to be an authoritarian follower.
If she isn't put the work in educating her.
It would seem to me that she is rebelling against your authority but you should be clear that you are open to her learning about things but go through it step by step and see for herself if the JW "rules" and other things are not mnore authoritarian than anything she has encountered.

The thing is they are putting up a front of not being authoritarian when they are. You on the other hand seem authoritarian but aren't. You are concerned she does not get harmed.
How can she be convinced of the above?

Also, teenagers are at a stage where peers become more important than parents. You really should consider doing the local parish courses. Get your wife to commit to it too.

lecorbeau

Thanks ISAW

interesting link .... reading it now and will show to wife later.

Fanny Cradock

OK, 3rd time of saying this. Off topic posts get deleted. If your post disappears it is for a reason.

Quo Vadis

lecorbeau wrote: »

Update

Thanks for keeping us up to date. It sounds like its working itself out, my advice would be just to give it the odd subtle nudge in the right direction, but leave it at that, if you push it too much they may decide the JW is not for them, but they might spin off into some other fundamentalist direction to rebel. Remind everyone that although none of you may be the best attendees, you're still Catholic, and the great thing about Catholicism is that its not really a pushy religion, it gives you space and time (years in fact) to work things out for yourself. Steer them very gently in that direction. Try going to mass with everyone just a bit more often, maybe once a month, (the family that prays together stays together), you could make a day of it by going out for lunch somewhere after, and then off to a park or such like.

Mass is not boring if people know it has two main parts ;
1st half of mass is The Liturgy of the Word (liturgy mean celebration), where there are bible readings and psalms, and the priests homily on same. Even if your not the biggest believer in the world, there is lots of life wisdom to learn from listening to these, that can then be applied to your own everyday living. (You can learn from others mistakes !)

2nd half is The Liturgy of the Eucharist, the Eucharist the source and summit of the Christian life, it was first instituted by Jesus himself, and it's amazing to think it still has the same form today, passed down from apostle to apostle. If you find the body and blood analogy hard to understand, it does take time. (As the Gospel says : This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it? ). Remember it is the presence of Jesus in body, blood, sprit and divinity. It is his glorified and risen body and blood, not his earthly body. It is a metaphysical change in nature, not a physical one.

Don't know if you find any of this useful, but God bless anyway.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

The 141 things you cant do list is repetitive

Quo Vadis wrote: »

the great thing about Catholicism is that its not really a pushy religion,

If you are comparing Jehovas Witness to Roman Catholicism, its only fair to bear in mind RC can appear more " pushy " ( if you want to use that word) than other Christian religions eg in relation to contraception, church attendance etc.

Quo Vadis

See post 107

blacktalons

The Jehovah's Witnesses are accused of having a "child protection policy" that protects paedophiles.
When child abuse is suspected within a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, "elders" in the church have a "child protection policy" to follow.
This involves reporting the matter to the church's own legal desk - but not necessarily to the police.
The organisation's strict biblical interpretation means not only that the matter often remains a secret within the organisation, but also that victims can be sent back home to the abusive relationship which they have complained of.
A former elder, Bill Bowen, has spoken out to Panorama about these policies. He's now leading a campaign to change the church's attitude to child abuse within its ranks.
And we speak to victims caught up in this controversy from around the world.
Where such laws do not exist (in many US states) even if a JW confesses to pedophilia, he is shielded by local JW elders, acting directly on the instructions of Watchtower's Legal and Service Departments.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panoram ...
Sex Abuse: Witness Leaders Accused of Shielding Molesters
Sex Abuse: Witness Leaders Accused of Shielding Molesters | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction
Even two members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall were dismissed on improper sexual conduct.
The list goes on and on...
If you -- or your child -- opens the door to one of the Jehovah's Witness pedophiles, you'll never know until it's too late.
Stop Jehovah's Witnesses building their pedophile Kingdom Halls now.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/christian-d...
Just thought this was interesting

KatyMac

JohnMarston wrote: »

I know a few JWs, they tell me they find their preaching very hard due to the apathy of people towards religion. They tell me they do it because they are required to as followers of Christ. Fair enough if thats what they believe. They 'recruit' as you say, because they are obligated to.

When they arrive at my doorstep I generally end up quoting the Bible back at them. It's a great way to stop them trying to convert.

lecorbeau

Update from original poster :

Hey, its been a while since I posted so I just wanted to give an update.

My daughter stopped going to the friends house for "Jehovah Study". She got bored very quickly as the Jehovah "teacher" started to tell her what she could and could not do.

She is still friends with the "friend" and my wife still sees the friends mother from time to time but there is no more mention of "Jehovah Witness".

Thank you to everyone for your comments and advice, it was really helpful.

I'm glad that all this is now behind us.

spannerotoole

lecorbeau wrote: »

Advice needed :

I live with my wife our son and gf's 2 daughters (14 and 12).

At the weekend our 12 year old asked if she could go to church with her best friend and best friend mother, we said ok.

12 year old came home with Jehovah Witness bible did not go to a church but stayed in best friends house where a Jehovah Witness woman came to teach the children. I nearly cracked up when I heard this and thought it was very sneaky of the best friends mother.

I spoke with wife and said this was unacceptalbe, and I did not want my step-daughter going there for private Jehovah tutoring. My wifes reaction completely taking me by surprise.....

"ah sure theres no harm in it, she wants to learn about God and Jesus and whats the harm" ....

I said we are Cathloics, we can bring her to a church or educate her if she really wants to.

The point is, does she really want to ? or wants to do it because best friend does it ?

I told my wife I dont support this decision and I dont want them in our house.

Yesterday the Jehovah witness woman phoned my wife and asked if she could come to our house weekly to teach our daughter (my step daughter), I immediately said NO WAY and now my wife cant understand this.

To educate MYSELF on what this religion is, I spent hours reading about it online yesterday. Im no comfortable with this at all but my wife will not listen.

I even got a "shes MY daughter and I will decide".

Please give some advice,

thanks

You really want your child to learn about god from the catholic church, an organization that has proved time and again that is anti-christian?

Marcus.Aurelius

lecorbeau wrote: »

Update from original poster :

Hey, its been a while since I posted so I just wanted to give an update.

My daughter stopped going to the friends house for "Jehovah Study". She got bored very quickly as the Jehovah "teacher" started to tell her what she could and could not do.

She is still friends with the "friend" and my wife still sees the friends mother from time to time but there is no more mention of "Jehovah Witness".

Thank you to everyone for your comments and advice, it was really helpful.

I'm glad that all this is now behind us.

Good news. They are one of the most destructive cults around.

ISAW

lecorbeau wrote: »

Thank you so much, these are exactly the type of questions we need to be asking.

Can anyone else help out with more questions ?

Can you supply me with a copy of your child protection policy?
If so why is the "teacher" allowed to be in a room alone with your daughter or her friend?
Can you supply me with a statement that all your staff are cleared by garda vetting?
Is the woman who is "teaching" subject to garda vetting?
Edit: another source: http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/jehovahs-witness

Doc Farrell

spannerotoole wrote: »

You really want your child to learn about god from the catholic church, an organization that has proved time and again that is anti-christian?

I'm going to have to report this, even on an open forum, there's only so much crazy I can read.