Jehovah Witness

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

ISAW

Just an update on the JW "bible study"
I have been looking into this and have had some JWs calling in to me.

Thathavbe quite heretical views
They basically believe that every christian has to evangelise so they are "saving themselves" by doing this work.
They believe a chosen 144,000 will go to heaven but most people who are saved i.w. members of JW will live onm a paradice Earth.
That Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael who was the first thing created by God and helped God make the rest of the universe.
Needless to say they dont believe in the Trinity

Their members are not encouraged to read outside their fold or get college educated.,
thay base their beliefs they say on Scripture but it is really on Wathctower interpretation of scripture. For example quoting Proverbs as a messianic Prophesy.
They do have a translation of the Septuagint the KIT and their New World Translation isnt bad given they substitute the word "Jehovah" for "God" in most places. Oh and change John 1:1 to say the Word was "a god" The Greek of course didn't have caps and lower case and their KIT shows this.
you can get a copy here
http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/kit_download.htm
Also http://www.letusreason.org/jw38.htm


They personally pay for the magazines they give to people - that's were most of the home base in New York make their money.

Here is an interesting experience which explains the inside workings:
http://www.archive.org/stream/WitnessesOfJehovah/1988_Witnesses_of_Jehovah_Searchable#page/n21/mode/2up


A fairly decent analysis of the scriptures they use
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r005.html
http://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/jehovahs%20witnesses/what_to_say_to_jehovahs_witnesses_when_they_knock_on_your_door.htm

I also printed out an Interliunear Hebrew vwersion of Genesis to show them "Yahewed"- Which is a more modern amalgemation of thetetragrammation and "Elohim" which is translated as "Lord" in English or "Kirios" in Greek or "Dominus" in Latin from WHERE THE LATIN LETTERS - YHVH = Jehovah come - anyway to show them Yahwed does not appear in the first Chapter of Genesiss and only appears in Chapter 2 . Before that they used Elohim a PLURAL word for God!

Anyway Im sure you might not be interested in the rest from me which wanders off into misquoting Anglican Bishops so I just include some references above.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

sorry I probably should have my PM is full so I couldn't PM that. and Others might be interested anyway.

The 141 things you cant do list is repetitive and you don't need to take all of them. Id say take 20 or so you think she won't like. I would not ask her to produce this printed list . Understand the ideas of Theocratic Warfare i.e. JWs believe lying or hiding the truth is justified. http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/theocratic-war.php

The point is JW take their instructions from The Watchtower and not from anywhere else.

Get her to do the 20 question quiz and see if she is likely to be an authoritarian follower.
If she isn't put the work in educating her.
It would seem to me that she is rebelling against your authority but you should be clear that you are open to her learning about things but go through it step by step and see for herself if the JW "rules" and other things are not mnore authoritarian than anything she has encountered.

The thing is they are putting up a front of not being authoritarian when they are. You on the other hand seem authoritarian but aren't. You are concerned she does not get harmed.
How can she be convinced of the above?

Also, teenagers are at a stage where peers become more important than parents. You really should consider doing the local parish courses. Get your wife to commit to it too.

You are telling false things about the JW,s sir-- The Jw,s learn instructions from the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings to give spiritual food at the proper time-- the watchtower magazine is used so that worldwide each JW gets the same spiritual feeding on a weekly basis--there are scriptures in every paragraph backing up what is taught-the Bible is opened right along with the magazine. similar to the early christians--we find they devoted themselves to the apostles teachings-Acts 2:42) And also at Hebrews 13:17--true christians are counciled to be submissive to teachers)
Other religions claiming to be christian cannot even understand simple bible milk like: Do not call a man Father( in a spiritual sense this is speaking) simple milk a child could understand-yet certain religions had 1750 years but cannot-- their own bibles prove them false teachers.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

You are ignorant of core Christianity.

The basis central beliefs of christianity and the books of Christianity have been ther for 1500 to 2,000 years.

About 100 years ago someone claiming to be "Christian" sets up the JW's and rewrites the ancient books and introduces a slew of ideas thrown out in the early Church.

It is nonsense to say they are the same and "equally false" just as it would be nonsense for someone to write the "communist Manifesto" this year and claim it is Marx's original words and revisit all the concepts in communism claiming this is what Marx wrote. In particular putting in phrases like "private property and private capital are what society should work towards having"

Actually after the apostles and early christians were killed, truth was lost basically-- thats why councils were held--because they needed to determine truth-unfortunatly when they allowed a pagan false god worshipping king to lead these councils-Jesus would have nothing to do with them so satan did. and its fact they added alot of pagan practices and false teachings--then after over 1000 years of not letting humans read Gods written word for themselves and burning humans alive for trying to translate to the language of the day--they finally let it be translated, but the lies all carried over into the translating--to this day billions are being mislead to serve a non existent trinity God breaking Gods #1 commandment daily--(its undisputable fact of history--Moses,Abraham,Job,Daniel,Isaiah, etc all served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) Jesus,s God and Father--rev 3:12, 1 cor 15:24-28

lmaopml

kjw47 wrote: »

You are telling false things about the JW,s sir-- The Jw,s learn instructions from the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings to give spiritual food at the proper time-- the watchtower magazine is used so that worldwide each JW gets the same spiritual feeding on a weekly basis--there are scriptures in every paragraph backing up what is taught-the Bible is opened right along with the magazine. similar to the early christians--we find they devoted themselves to the apostles teachings-Acts 2:42) And also at Hebrews 13:17--true christians are counciled to be submissive to teachers)
Other religions claiming to be christian cannot even understand simple bible milk like: Do not call a man Father( in a spiritual sense this is speaking) simple milk a child could understand-yet certain religions had 1750 years but cannot-- their own bibles prove them false teachers.

I don't know exactly what you mean about Bible milk? or false teachers etc. your post is really vague ... but true Christians are not 'councelled to be submissive to teachers', but to be a communion of people in love with life and God, and using their reason and rationality too, to set the course for real life with purpose, with real life people -

True Christians are aware of the world they live on, partake in it, are a part of it, and take on board all it's majesty and all it's destructive qualities and still remain thankful, full of awe, but live very very real lives in this world, on the planet, in this time span in this lifetime and are grateful for it to the author of life, the Trinity, God, the author of everything, beginning and end of all experience.

homer911

kjw47 wrote: »

...they finally let it be translated, but the lies all carried over into the translating--to this day billions are being mislead to serve a non existent trinity God breaking Gods #1 commandment daily--(its undisputable fact of history--Moses,Abraham,Job,Daniel,Isaiah, etc all served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) Jesus,s God and Father--rev 3:12, 1 cor 15:24-28

There is plenty of evidence out there of the selective and mis-interpretation of the oldest bible texts by JWs, and the ongoing changes that they keep making to their translation "correcting" teachings which are found to be inconsistent with JW teachings.

Dont expect a friendly reception on the Christianity forum for this type of stuff

kjw47

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't know exactly what you mean about Bible milk? or false teachers etc. your post is really vague ... but true Christians are not 'councelled to be submissive to teachers', but to be a communion of people in love with life and God, and using their reason and rationality too, to set the course for real life with purpose, with real life people -

True Christians are aware of the world they live on, partake in it, are a part of it, and take on board all it's majesty and all it's destructive qualities and still remain thankful, full of awe, but live very very real lives in this world, on the planet, in this time span in this lifetime and are grateful for it to the author of life, the Trinity, God, the author of everything, beginning and end of all experience.

Hebrews 13:17= Be obediant to those taking the lead( teachers) among you,and be submissive for they are keeping watch over your souls.
Does Gods word teach 2 different allmighty Gods? No--- Jesus at John 17:1-6 calls the Father -THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- the apostle Paul also taught-- 1 cor 8:6--There is 1 God to all the Father( not father,son,hs) so in reality either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity God is made up by mistranslating certain words to fit a false council teaching. It cannot be both. Its a guarantee --Jesus has a God rev 3:12-- listen to Jesus.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

You are telling false things about the JW,s sir-- The Jw,s learn instructions from the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings to give spiritual food at the proper time--

This would be "spiritual food" they got by actually communicating with spirits?

I assume you are a JW.

Let me make a prophesy.
I predict if you are an ordinary member ( and you are unlikely to be becaue you would not be on the internet) you will soon leave this site because you will see things about the JWs you don't like.

So let's begin by asking if you are interested in the truth and whether you take you guidance from the Bible or from the Watchtower?

for example I assume you believe in Satan the Occult and demons?
Do you?
I also assume you believe that one should not communicate with the dead or with spirits?
Do you?

do you also know that The Watchtower based translations of the greek of John 1:1 on people who communicated with spirits?and that even after they knew about that they still featured these people in their publications?
Do you know the Watchtower and the JW leadership have a series of failed prophesies?
Did you know they preached about all sorts of things not in the bible but more to do with occultism like demons possessing objects?

Did you know they changed the numbers in their publications to reflect changed prophesies and backward inserted different numbers into the newer versions of their books? considering one of these numbers is the measurement in inches of a pyramid passage do you not find it odd that when the prophesy failed they published a different length for the passage?
Did you know Russell's successor claimed to speak with the dead and claimed to be instructed by angels - odd how the publications he wrote later had to be changed isnt it?

I can provide you with references to all the above. They are all in JW publications But I doubt you will go and locate them let alone refute them.

the watchtower magazine is used so that worldwide each JW gets the same spiritual feeding on a weekly basis--

do members also pay for their copy? Or do they all get it for free?

there are scriptures in every paragraph backing up what is taught-

Tell you what . Ill refer to the Watchtower and you go and look it up ...right?

the Bible is opened right along with the magazine.

this would be tyhe JW bible which renders John 1:1 as

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

a god? When the original Greek does not distinguish lower case?

You have the original Greek in a Book called the Kingdom Inter Linear Translation

There is no definite article in the Greek before the second occurrence of God, so the WT translated the word “a god”.  So far, they are consistent with their supposed rule that if a noun has no definite article it is indefinite.  However, just five verses later, in the New World Translation, we have this:

John 1:6 “There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.”

  There is no definite article in the Greek before the word “God” in John 1:6, yet the WT translates it “God”, with a capital “G”!
This translation is absolutely correct, but it demolishes the WT’s “rule” that when there is no definite article present the noun must, of necessity, be translated as an indefinite [“a God”, hence a “god”].  The following occurrences of the word “God”, in the WT’s own New World Translation, are translated with a capital “G” even though there is no definite article, no “the”,  present:  John 3:2; John 13:3; 1 Thess. 2:5, 1 Pet. 4:10,11 (four occurrences of the word “God”, two with the article, two without, yet all four are translated by the WT as “God”, capital “G”!  Look them up in the Watchtowers KIT.


And to show how flexible the WT is in observing its own “rule” when it doesn’t serve the WT’s purpose, we quote Heb. 9:14 in the NWT: 

How much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?

  There is no definite article before the word “God” in the Greek, yet the WT not only translates it “God” with a capital “G”, but supplies the definite article that is not present in the Greek!  The WT translates it correctly here, but it broke its own “rule” to do that!  So the “rule” is not absolute, just convenient in places like in John 1:1 where the Word, Jesus, is called God!
How come that?

similar to the early christians--we find they devoted themselves to the apostles teachings-Acts 2:42) And also at Hebrews 13:17--true christians are counciled to be submissive to teachers)

Exactly what I stated. You listen to the Watchtower not the Bible. If the Bible or even the Watchtower publication does not fit you just simple change the publication! I can show you wher the Watchtower did that and you can go and look up their old books for yourself.

Other religions claiming to be christian cannot even understand simple bible milk

Please stay on topic. This isn't about others it is about WT publications. You probably haven't read them but they are in the local Kingdom Hall Library.

Do you want to learn about what the WT publications stated and go and look them up yourself?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Hebrews 13:17= Be obediant to those taking the lead( teachers) among you,and be submissive for they are keeping watch over your souls.

Even if they are connected with the occult?

The Watchtower Jan 15 2001 page 19 paragraph 9 clearly states that in the 1920 the JW's stated there were two sides Jehova's and Satan's and if you are not on one side you are on the other.

In Revelation It's Grand climax at hand ( revised edition 2006) - p233-4 it says

It is the satanic ‘air’ breathed by the world today, the spirit, or general mental inclination, that characterizes his whole wicked system of things, the satanic thinking that permeates every aspect of life outside Jehovah’s organization. So in pouring out his bowl upon the air, the seventh angel expresses God’s wrath against Satan, his organization, and everything that motivates mankind to support Satan in defying Jehovah’s sovereignty

In Live With Jehovah’s Day in Mind (2006) p. 109. it says

Certainly you—a true servant of Jehovah—must shun such practices. You can be sure that God never uses magic or the occult to reveal his will or to exercise his power. Instead, as Amos 3:7 assures us, Jehovah ‘reveals his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.’ Moreover, dabbling in the occult can bring one under the influence and control of the leader of the demons, Satan, who is a liar and whose strategy is to deceive people. He and his minions are out to harm, having always been cruel, even killing people. (Job 1:7-19; 2:7; Mark 5:5) Understandably, Micah condemned divination and sorceries when he urged us to walk with the true God.

So I take it you think such practices are to be shunned?

lmaopml

kjw47 wrote: »

Actually after the apostles and early christians were killed, truth was lost basically-- thats why councils were held--because they needed to determine truth-unfortunatly when they allowed a pagan false god worshipping king to lead these councils-Jesus would have nothing to do with them so satan did. and its fact they added alot of pagan practices and false teachings--then after over 1000 years of not letting humans read Gods written word for themselves and burning humans alive for trying to translate to the language of the day--they finally let it be translated, but the lies all carried over into the translating--to this day billions are being mislead to serve a non existent trinity God breaking Gods #1 commandment daily--(its undisputable fact of history--Moses,Abraham,Job,Daniel,Isaiah, etc all served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) Jesus,s God and Father--rev 3:12, 1 cor 15:24-28

Goodness, I do hope you stick around to find out about Christianity - lurk a while, but please do read, learn...take something positive away, that says your enemy is not really your enemy but somebody you have been thrown together with to learn from - just like everybody, every human. Christ wants us to be human too, and live and face this world, not suppose ourselves beyond it, or even begin to imagine what is, we're here to conquer it, and know ourselves, but not in a vacuum of protected idealogies, one that sees all of them, and makes choices that are proportionate to the experience we are lucky enough to have, and still sings it's own tune valiantly.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

This would be "spiritual food" they got by actually communicating with spirits?

I assume you are a JW.

Let me make a prophesy.
I predict if you are an ordinary member ( and you are unlikely to be becaue you would not be on the internet) you will soon leave this site because you will see things about the JWs you don't like.

So let's begin by asking if you are interested in the truth and whether you take you guidance from the Bible or from the Watchtower?

for example I assume you believe in Satan the Occult and demons?
Do you?
I also assume you believe that one should not communicate with the dead or with spirits?
Do you?

do you also know that The Watchtower based translations of the greek of John 1:1 on people who communicated with spirits?and that even after they knew about that they still featured these people in their publications?
Do you know the Watchtower and the JW leadership have a series of failed prophesies?
Did you know they preached about all sorts of things not in the bible but more to do with occultism like demons possessing objects?

Did you know they changed the numbers in their publications to reflect changed prophesies and backward inserted different numbers into the newer versions of their books? considering one of these numbers is the measurement in inches of a pyramid passage do you not find it odd that when the prophesy failed they published a different length for the passage?
Did you know Russell's successor claimed to speak with the dead and claimed to be instructed by angels - odd how the publications he wrote later had to be changed isnt it?

I can provide you with references to all the above. They are all in JW publications But I doubt you will go and locate them let alone refute them.




do members also pay for their copy? Or do they all get it for free?




Tell you what . Ill refer to the Watchtower and you go and look it up ...right?



this would be tyhe JW bible which renders John 1:1 as

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm


a god? When the original Greek does not distinguish lower case?

You have the original Greek in a Book called the Kingdom Inter Linear Translation

There is no definite article in the Greek before the second occurrence of God, so the WT translated the word “a god”. So far, they are consistent with their supposed rule that if a noun has no definite article it is indefinite. However, just five verses later, in the New World Translation, we have this:

There is no definite article in the Greek before the word “God” in John 1:6, yet the WT translates it “God”, with a capital “G”!
This translation is absolutely correct, but it demolishes the WT’s “rule” that when there is no definite article present the noun must, of necessity, be translated as an indefinite [“a God”, hence a “god”]. The following occurrences of the word “God”, in the WT’s own New World Translation, are translated with a capital “G” even though there is no definite article, no “the”, present: John 3:2; John 13:3; 1 Thess. 2:5, 1 Pet. 4:10,11 (four occurrences of the word “God”, two with the article, two without, yet all four are translated by the WT as “God”, capital “G”! Look them up in the Watchtowers KIT.


And to show how flexible the WT is in observing its own “rule” when it doesn’t serve the WT’s purpose, we quote Heb. 9:14 in the NWT:
There is no definite article before the word “God” in the Greek, yet the WT not only translates it “God” with a capital “G”, but supplies the definite article that is not present in the Greek! The WT translates it correctly here, but it broke its own “rule” to do that! So the “rule” is not absolute, just convenient in places like in John 1:1 where the Word, Jesus, is called God!
How come that?



Exactly what I stated. You listen to the Watchtower not the Bible. If the Bible or even the Watchtower publication does not fit you just simple change the publication! I can show you wher the Watchtower did that and you can go and look up their old books for yourself.


Please stay on topic. This isn't about others it is about WT publications. You probably haven't read them but they are in the local Kingdom Hall Library.

Do you want to learn about what the WT publications stated and go and look them up yourself?

There isnt a thing about the JW,s and their history i havent allready heard or read.
There have been other translations throughout history that have rendered John 1:1 the same or the like of it.
If Jesus were actually God-Then he would have lied at John 17:1-6--where he clearly tells everyone that the Father is the only true God--because its truth. Same reason why the israelites for 5000 years served a single being God named YHWH( Jehovah) they never served a trinity God while serving the true God--its undisputable fact.
I do listen to Gods written word and his son-- here is another undisputable fact-- God does not have a God--Jesus has a God-rev 3:12--- Jesus hands back the kingdom after his millenial reign to his God and Father and becomes a subject to him=1 cor 15:24-28) fact--God is never subject to anyone or anything--So the rendering at John 1:1 is correct--- a god-- meaning -- has godlike qualities-Why? because Gods power goes through Jesus Acts 2:22) If the trinity teaching were truth--then at rev 3:12--this would have to be their teaching--God has a God with another God(HS) over their.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Even if they are connected with the occult?

The Watchtower Jan 15 2001 page 19 paragraph 9 clearly states that in the 1920 the JW's stated there were two sides Jehova's and Satan's and if you are not on one side you are on the other.

In Revelation It's Grand climax at hand ( revised edition 2006) - p233-4 it says


In Live With Jehovah’s Day in Mind (2006) p. 109. it says


So I take it you think such practices are to be shunned?

I know all that occured--the men revealing truths are still imperfect mortals who err, Gods word says satan is at war with Jesus,s seed( Faithful and discreet slave) and followers too. All of those errors that occured have been corrected( repented of) plus all those men are dead now. And when God said the faithful slave would give spiritual food at the proper time( when God wills a truth to be known) that means if God didnt want a truth known until 1984 then until 1984 not even the faithful slave would know that truth--but would still have to have some kind of teaching on that matter even though it would be error. the important thing is to correct the error in front of the ridiculing hearts that are waiting to pounce on them. The everyday JW wouldnt know the difference,so it proves by making the required corrections that the FS is concerned with having truth over being ridiculed.
How easy is it for mortal man to undo 1750 years of false teachings with satan at war with them?

The Quadratic Equation

kjw47 wrote: »

There isnt a thing about the JW,s and their history i havent allready heard or read.
There have been other translations throughout history that have rendered John 1:1 the same or the like of it.
If Jesus were actually God-Then he would have lied at John 17:1-6--where he clearly tells everyone that the Father is the only true God--because its truth. Same reason why the israelites for 5000 years served a single being God named YHWH( Jehovah) they never served a trinity God while serving the true God--its undisputable fact.
I do listen to Gods written word and his son-- here is another undisputable fact-- God does not have a God--Jesus has a God-rev 3:12--- Jesus hands back the kingdom after his millenial reign to his God and Father and becomes a subject to him=1 cor 15:24-28) fact--God is never subject to anyone or anything--So the rendering at John 1:1 is correct--- a god-- meaning -- has godlike qualities-Why? because Gods power goes through Jesus Acts 2:22) If the trinity teaching were truth--then at rev 3:12--this would have to be their teaching--God has a God with another God(HS) over their.

God Bless, and welcome to the Christianity forum.

Here are just some of the many examples of the divinity of Jesus Christ from scripture :

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one."
- 1 John 5:7

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
- Matthew 28:19

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
- John 1:1-3

"I and my Father are one." - John 10:30

Here are many more :

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Actually after the apostles and early christians were killed, truth was lost basically-- thats why councils were held--

The first council was the council of Jerusalem (Pentecost) when all the Apostles ( except Judas) were alive. Asfor truth being lost
April 1, 1998 Watchtower states
On page 12, para. 9, the Society comments on the work of the “copyists” who made copies of the inspired original documents. “Not only were the copyists very skilled, but they also had a deep respect for the words they copied.”
paragraph 10 continues

There is, in fact, compelling evidence that the Hebrew and Greek texts on which modern translations are based represent with remarkable fidelity the words of the original writers. The evidence consists of thousands of handwritten copies of Bible manuscripts - an estimated 6,000 of all or portions of the Hebrew scriptures [O/T] and some 5,000 of the Christian scriptures in Greek [N/T] - that have survived to our day.

Commenting on the text of the Hebrew scriptures, scholar William H. Green could thus state: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.” Similar confidence can be placed in the text of the Christian Greek scriptures.

The Watchtower in 1998 says T Jehovah’s Witness leaders then are fully satisfied that the New Testament Greek texts, although copied many times over the centuries, do not contain any copyists mistakes that would substantially change the Bible text (all mistakes must be minor ones).

But the “Foreword” to the 1985 edition of the Watchtower Society’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation we come across their excuse for inserting the word Jehovah into the New Testament text no fewer than 237 times, while other New Testaments do not have even one!

Sometime during the second or third centuries C.E., the Tetragrammaton (YHWH, or JHVH) was eliminated from the Greek text by copyists who did not understand or appreciate the divine name or who developed an aversion to it, possibly under the influence of anti-Semitism. Instead of YHWH (or, JHVH) they substituted the words Ky’ri*os, “Lord,” and The*os’, “God.

How do you reconcile
“Not only were the copyists very skilled but they also had deep respect for the words they copied,”
with
“The evidence is that the original text of the Christian Greek scriptures [N/T] has been tampered with.”
and
, “... the tetragrammaton (YHWH, or JHVH) was eliminated from the Greek text by copyists who did not understand or appreciate the divine name, or who developed an aversion to it...”?

Not alone that but suppose it was substantially tampered with before the third century.

Where are all these other documents or sects referring to Jehovah or even histories referring to them?

Which of the statements is true, the one in the Watchtower or the one in the KIT?

If it is the Watchtower then there exist : “some 5,000 [copies] of the Christian scriptures [N/T] in the Greek.” how come not one of them contains the Hebrew form of God's Old Testament name?

Moses,Abraham,Job,Daniel,Isaiah, etc all served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) Jesus,s God and Father--rev 3:12, 1 cor 15:24-28

Actually Elohim appears thousands of times in the Old Testament as well and Genesis doesn't have YHWD in the first Chapter but the word Elohim is used for God - a plural noun for a single God. how come that? And it was not only JHVH but other Hebrew names for God as well for which they used Lord or God.

ISAW

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Here are just some of the many examples of the divinity of Jesus from scripture :


"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 28:19

Which is preceeded by the apostles worshipping Jesus but the WT translated this " 17 and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted."

But in case of confusion the next verse allays the doubt of worshipping him by actually referring to it.
18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

This is the actual NWT version above.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." - John 1:1-3

Which the NWT render: 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Note the reference to Christ as "a god" rather than "God" and see my comments above.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

The first council was the council of Jerusalem (Pentecost) when all the Apostles ( except Judas) were alive. Asfor truth being lost
April 1, 1998 Watchtower states
On page 12, para. 9, the Society comments on the work of the “copyists” who made copies of the inspired original documents. “Not only were the copyists very skilled, but they also had a deep respect for the words they copied.”
paragraph 10 continues

The Watchtower in 1998 says T Jehovah’s Witness leaders then are fully satisfied that the New Testament Greek texts, although copied many times over the centuries, do not contain any copyists mistakes that would substantially change the Bible text (all mistakes must be minor ones).

But the “Foreword” to the 1985 edition of the Watchtower Society’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation we come across their excuse for inserting the word Jehovah into the New Testament text no fewer than 237 times, while other New Testaments do not have even one!



How do you reconcile
“Not only were the copyists very skilled but they also had deep respect for the words they copied,”
with
“The evidence is that the original text of the Christian Greek scriptures [N/T] has been tampered with.”
and
, “... the tetragrammaton (YHWH, or JHVH) was eliminated from the Greek text by copyists who did not understand or appreciate the divine name, or who developed an aversion to it...”?

Not alone that but suppose it was substantially tampered with before the third century.

Where are all these other documents or sects referring to Jehovah or even histories referring to them?

Which of the statements is true, the one in the Watchtower or the one in the KIT?

If it is the Watchtower then there exist : “some 5,000 [copies] of the Christian scriptures [N/T] in the Greek.” how come not one of them contains the Hebrew form of God's Old Testament name?



Actually Elohim appears thousands of times in the Old Testament as well and Genesis doesn't have YHWD in the first Chapter but the word Elohim is used for God - a plural noun for a single God. how come that? And it was not only JHVH but other Hebrew names for God as well for which they used Lord or God.

Every trinity scholar,Jewish scholar, and JW scholar know its a fact the personal name of God was removed and replaced with-GOD-LORD--- it was an atocity to God that this occurred--God put his personal name in those places because he wants it there--and the only translators who have enough love and respect for God to put it back are condemned by the ones who didnt have the love or respect.
I agree that most of Gods written word is true to form except certain misused greek to english translated words and a left out a and certain misplaced commas--yet Gods word says that even the angels are trying to peer into its deep hidden truths but cannot---only the faithful slave whom Jesus appointed would get these deep truths revealed to them. The faithful and discreet slave-1 religion-1 truth united worldwide in love and peace.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Which is preceeded by the apostles worshipping Jesus but the WT translated this " 17 and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted."

But in case of confusion the next verse allays the doubt of worshipping him by actually referring to it.
18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

This is the actual NWT version above.



Which the NWT render: 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Note the reference to Christ as "a god" rather than "God" and see my comments above.

The same greek word used for worship to God is obesiance to a King besides at least 3 other meanings as well.
Verse 18--all authority given( given by whom)--someone greater than him--if he were God he would have allready had authority. 19 doesnt say 1 thing about the 3 being God--you just assume.
Yes the Father and Jesus are one in purpose not in being--Jesus said the Father is greater than i as well. And when one looks at Jesus they can see the Father, because Jesus did the Fathers will 24/7-- not his own will. The NWT is the most correct translation on earth. Satan twisted translations centuries ago and from generation to generation untruth has been handed down from parent to child. Misleading 2 billion to break Gods #1 commandment everyday of the week--Serve Jesus,s God, that is what a true christian does--Jehovah is the sovereign of the universe.

JimiTime

I still lament when I see the spoonfed defence of the indefensible by JW's As someone who used to use the same spoon, I pray your eyes be opened kjw47 (And I truly mean that. I don't mean it in a condescending way. I just relate to it so much). Reading your posts is like looking into a mirror of me from 12 years ago. Like me, you think you've got it sussed. An answer for everything, and it makes you feel secure. It feels good to simply 'know'. Your faith in the 'orgnisation' is unquestioning, and you don't even bother to look into things, because your trust is so great in these people, that you 'know' that they are not going to give you anything but truth. Nothing that people say will sink in, as you are just so sure. I've been there, and every untruth that is spoken about the JW's (Of which there are many), makes you even more sure that its all baloney or misunderstanding.

I pray, that like me, a simple event just triggers something in you that you just can't ignore and that the house of cards falls. Thank God, I never was baptised when I was there, but thankfully even my family members that were saw the light too. Indeed, you are reading this thinking, 'apostate', just like I used to do. I genuinely hope that you eventually question PROPERLY, what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society actually are. I certainly don't think argument will convince you, so I wont go there, but maybe someday something just wont seem right to you, and you'll recall this post without thinking its Satan 'getting in', and think outside of the 'organisation'. I know some really genuine JW's, who truly just want to serve God. I just hope that with Gods grace they will one day serve him, without feeling the need for the mediation of the WBATS.

God Bless.
Jimi.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Every trinity scholar,Jewish scholar, and JW scholar know its a fact the personal name of God was removed and replaced with-GOD-LORD

The Watchtower actually says “Not only were the copyists very skilled, but they also had a deep respect for the words they copied.”
Do you agree with them?

You do know Elohim appears thousand s of times?

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/61.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism#Translating_names_of_God_into_English

The Hebrew letters are named Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh: יהוה. In English it is written as YHWH, YHVH, or JHVH depending on the transliteration convention that is used.
...
Traditionally in Judaism, the name is not pronounced but read as Adonai (/ˈædəˈnaɪ/) ("my Lord"), during prayer, and referred to as HaShem ("the Name") at all other times.
...
Ehyeh asher ehyeh (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) is the first of three responses given to Moses when he asks for God's name (Exodus 3:14).
...
El appears in Ugaritic, Phoenician and other 2nd and 1st millennium BCE texts both as generic "god" and as the head of the divine pantheon
...
Elah (Hebrew: אֵלָה), (plural "elim") is the Aramaic word for "awesome". The origin of the word is uncertain and it may be related to a root word, meaning “fear” or “reverence”. Elah is found in the Tanakh in the books of Ezra, Daniel, and Jeremiah (Jer 10:11, the only verse in the entire book written in Aramaic.)[20] Elah is used to describe both pagan gods and the one true God.
...
he Hebrew form Eloah (אלוהּ), which appears to be a singular feminine form of Elohim, is comparatively rare, occurring only in poetry and prose (in the Book of Job, 41 times). What is probably the same divine name is found in Arabic (Ilah as singular "a god", as opposed to Allah meaning "The God" or "God", "al" in "al-Lah" being the definite article "the") and in Aramaic (Elaha).
...
A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים).

Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim when referring to God is grammatically singular, and takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible
...
The name `Elyon (Hebrew: עליון) occurs in combination with El, YHWH or Elohim, and also alone. It appears chiefly in poetic and later Biblical passages.
...
In the Hebrew bible Book of Genesis, specifically Gen 16:13, Hagar calls the divine protagonist, El Roi. Roi means “seeing". To Hagar, God revealed Himself as “The God Who sees".
...
Shaddai was a late Bronze Age Amorite city on the banks of the Euphrates river, in northern Syria. The site of its ruin-mound is called Tell eth-Thadyen: "Thadyen" being the modern Arabic rendering of the original West Semitic "Shaddai". It has been conjectured that El Shaddai was therefore the "god of Shaddai" and associated in tradition with Abraham, and the inclusion of the Abraham stories into the Hebrew Bible may have brought the northern name with them
...
The name Yah is composed of the first two letters of YHWH. It appears often in names, such as Elijah or Adonijah. The Rastafarian Jah is derived from this, as is the expression Hallelujah. Found in the Authorized King James Version of the Bible at Psalm 68:4. Different versions report different names such as: YAH, YHWH, LORD, GOD and JAH.

Were you aware the Jews used several names and that the record of all of them exists and that "lord" or "God" is a modern English translation of several different Hebrew words?

--- it was an atocity to God that this occurred--God put his personal name in those places because he wants it there--and the only translators who have enough love and respect for God to put it back are condemned by the ones who didnt have the love or respect.

So God said "my real name is the word "Jehovah" in English -a language not yet used- which comes from JHVH which comes from a Latin four letter rendering YHWH ( because Latin had no J or W) which is a rendering four Hebrew charachters which iof written in this as yet unused English language is Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh. Of course I only want you topp use this four letter representation which the Jews already refer to as "Lord"/Adonai and not all the other thousands of places wher it refers to God but does not use the Hebrew word Yahweh."?

I agree that most of Gods written word is true to form except certain misused greek to english translated words

But the translation using "god" and "lord" are not just of Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh but also all the other thousands of places where Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh was not used and other words were used for "God" .

and a left out a and certain misplaced commas--yet Gods word says that even the angels are trying to peer into its deep hidden truths but cannot---only the faithful slave whom Jesus appointed would get these deep truths revealed to them. The faithful and discreet slave-1 religion-1 truth united worldwide in love and peace.

These would be the faithful servants of the JW leadership that spoke to the dead spirits would it?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

The NWT is the most correct translation on earth. Satan twisted translations centuries ago .

So why then did the Watchtower use Johannes Greber in their translation and other people who spoke to spirits?

Foreword, The New Testament – a New Translation by Johannes Greber, 1937 (1980 printing). (Not a Watchtower publication).

Many contradictions between what appears in the ancient scrolls and the New Testament, as we have grown to know it, arose and were the subject of his constant prayers for guidance — prayers that were answered, and the discrepancies clarified to him, by God's Spirit World. At times he was given the correct answers in large illuminated letters and words passing before his eyes. Other times he was given the correct answers during prayer meetings. His wife, a medium of God's Spiritworld was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God's Messengers to Pastor Greber.

The Watchtower, April 1, 1983 p. 31.

The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The scholarship that forms the basis for the rendering of the above-cited texts in the New World Translation is sound and for this reason does not depend at all on Greber’s translation for authority. Nothing is lost, therefore, by ceasing to use his New Testament.

So in 1981 WT announced they were abandoning Greber because they only just found out about him communing with spirits?

But he had already told them years before and they printed it:
The Watchtower, February 15, 1956, p. 110-111.

Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of his translation of The New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: “I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God’s spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication, and experienced things that shook me to the depths of my soul. “My experiences are related in a book that has appeared in both German and English and bears the title, Communication with the Spirit-World: Its Laws and Its Purpose.” … In the Foreword of his aforementioned book ex-priest Greber says: “The most significant spiritualistic book is the Bible.” Under this impression Greber endeavors to make his New Testament translation read very spiritualistic.

Did you not know the WT knew about Greber in 1956?

In 1985, the Society published a new edition of their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. In Appendix 2A they added another "translation" to their list - that of John S. Thompson of Baltimore. This rendition, dated at 1829, is quoted as, "and the Logos was a god."

Who was John Thompson? The American Quarterly Review of September, 1830. Here we read Thompson saying, "I shall rejoice in having been the happy instrument, in the hand of God, of having done fourfold as much for mankind, as all the professed commentators of the last fifteen centuries!" Aside from a lack of humility, it seems Thompson was "moved about by every wind of doctrine" as well, moving from being a Calvinist to an Arminian Methodist preacher, to being a Restorationist, then on to an Arian Restorationist, until finally being a Unitarian Universalist Thompson admits to having experiences withspirit beings who instruct him to "be careful to represent Jesus as only the instrument of God in all he does.

Bet you didn't know that either?

Benny_Cake

kjw47 wrote: »

I know all that occured--the men revealing truths are still imperfect mortals who err, Gods word says satan is at war with Jesus,s seed( Faithful and discreet slave) and followers too. All of those errors that occured have been corrected( repented of) plus all those men are dead now. And when God said the faithful slave would give spiritual food at the proper time( when God wills a truth to be known) that means if God didnt want a truth known until 1984 then until 1984 not even the faithful slave would know that truth--but would still have to have some kind of teaching on that matter even though it would be error. the important thing is to correct the error in front of the ridiculing hearts that are waiting to pounce on them. The everyday JW wouldnt know the difference,so it proves by making the required corrections that the FS is concerned with having truth over being ridiculed.
How easy is it for mortal man to undo 1750 years of false teachings with satan at war with them?

You are entitled to your religious beliefs. But the various positions taken by the Watchtower Society over the years have had a great human cost. Each failed prediction of the beginning of the millennial kingdom - 1914, 1975 and so on, resulted in a great number of people giving up jobs and homes and educational opportunities to engage in evangelisation. Families and friendships have been sundered by the practise of disfellowshipping. There was a time in the past when vaccines were forbidden, and blood transfusions still are (despite virtually all the fractions of blood being allowed). These are big claims with big consequences, and simply saying "spiritual food at the correct time" just doesn't add up - I'd doubt you'd accept that line from anyone else. Anyway, I wish you all the best in your spiritual journey.

ISAW

Do reject astrology as occult?
Awake! November 8, 2000, p. 27

“By maneuvering events to make certain predictions come true, Satan and the demons have captured the attention of millions. The simple truth is that astrology is one of ‘the machinations of the Devil,’ which he uses to control and influence people to serve his purpose. Thus, it is hardly surprising that the Bible exhorts Christians to ‘stand firm’ against Satan’s clever devices—which include astrology.”

Was this always their teaching?
1914 International Bible Students Souvenir Convention Report, p252.

No nation has ever claimed the invention of the Zodiac, though doubtless they would have been glad to have the honor had they invented it … The higher critics of today, though denying the inspiration of the scriptures, admit that there is a close and strange agreement between the Bible and the Zodiac…If then, we find the divine plan written in these constellations, realizing that men could not have written a Plan that they did not even understand, it would be only reasonable to ascribe its origin to God … Indeed, the same Bible which points to the Great Pyramid, points also to the heavens as declaring the wonderful Plan of Salvation.

Or how about the Original "Watchtower" Magasine which claimed they had the location of heaven?
Zion’s Watch Tower, May 15, 1895, p121.

Our solar system of planets is also found to be revolving together around some other great center … the group Pleiades. And the reasonable suggestion has been made that the center may be in the heavens, the highest heaven, the throne of God.

And 33 years later they were still touting it:
Reconciliation (1928) p. 14. which you will not find on the wikipedia list but Im sutre your local Kingdom Hall Library will tell you wher to buy it from them.

The constellation of the seven stars forming the Pleiades appears to be the crowning center around which the known systems of the planets revolve even as our sun's planets obey the sun and travel in their respective orbits. It has been suggested, and with much weight, that one of the stars of that group is the dwelling-place of Jehovah and the place of the highest heavens; that it is the place to which the inspired writer referred when he said: "Hear thou from thy dwellingplace, even from heaven" (2 Chron. 6:21); and that it is the place to which Job referred when under inspiration he wrote: "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"-Job 38: 31.
The constellation of the Pleiades is a small one compared with others which scientific instruments disclose to the wondering eyes of man. But the greatness in size of other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God.

How about communicating with the dead? Is that an occult practice you think is wrong? Or will you ask the Watchtower to tell you if it is wrong or not? Why can't you actually say if you think it is wrong without asking the WT?

kjw47

JimiTime wrote: »

I still lament when I see the spoonfed defence of the indefensible by JW's As someone who used to use the same spoon, I pray your eyes be opened kjw47 (And I truly mean that. I don't mean it in a condescending way. I just relate to it so much). Reading your posts is like looking into a mirror of me from 12 years ago. Like me, you think you've got it sussed. An answer for everything, and it makes you feel secure. It feels good to simply 'know'. Your faith in the 'orgnisation' is unquestioning, and you don't even bother to look into things, because your trust is so great in these people, that you 'know' that they are not going to give you anything but truth. Nothing that people say will sink in, as you are just so sure. I've been there, and every untruth that is spoken about the JW's (Of which there are many), makes you even more sure that its all baloney or misunderstanding.

I pray, that like me, a simple event just triggers something in you that you just can't ignore and that the house of cards falls. Thank God, I never was baptised when I was there, but thankfully even my family members that were saw the light too. Indeed, you are reading this thinking, 'apostate', just like I used to do. I genuinely hope that you eventually question PROPERLY, what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society actually are. I certainly don't think argument will convince you, so I wont go there, but maybe someday something just wont seem right to you, and you'll recall this post without thinking its Satan 'getting in', and think outside of the 'organisation'. I know some really genuine JW's, who truly just want to serve God. I just hope that with Gods grace they will one day serve him, without feeling the need for the mediation of the WBATS.

God Bless.
Jimi.

Lets look at the facts and see what is indefensible--- When they JW leaders find an error they correct it, the average JW wouldnt know the difference, the ridiculing hearts pounce each time a correction is made-- But the ridicule doesnt matter to the JW leaders--truth matters that is why they make the required corrections--- But here is a simple bible teaching that shows all who God is yet for 1750 years the trinity teachers refuse to make the correction( just 1 of many that prove them false)
Deuteronomy 32:4-- All of Gods ways are justice( that would be perfect justice) lets look at this justice scale of Gods--- The teaching of a literal place of eternal torment( hell,hades,sheol) on one side of the scale- 70-90 years of unrepented sin--- on the otherside of the scale-- trillions x trillions x trillions etc of years of never ending punishment---- very simple to see its not the true God of the bible-- a false sadistic teaching by religions that refuse to take ridicule and teach a lie, and they know its a lie--Why??? Because they do not know God and God is not with them. Jehovah is the true sovereign of the universe-Psalm 83:18

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Do reject astrology as occult?
Awake! November 8, 2000, p. 27



Was this always their teaching?
1914 International Bible Students Souvenir Convention Report, p252.


Or how about the Original "Watchtower" Magasine which claimed they had the location of heaven?
Zion’s Watch Tower, May 15, 1895, p121.


And 33 years later they were still touting it:
Reconciliation (1928) p. 14. which you will not find on the wikipedia list but Im sutre your local Kingdom Hall Library will tell you wher to buy it from them.


How about communicating with the dead? Is that an occult practice you think is wrong? Or will you ask the Watchtower to tell you if it is wrong or not? Why can't you actually say if you think it is wrong without asking the WT?

Yes i know they quoted Greber-- a mistake possibly, yet his quote was truth. Is teaching truth a mistake? Many errors occured throughout the years, finding Gods real truth and undoing 1750 years of false teachings does not occur overnight now does it--it takes years of hard bible study,old writings study,hebrew and greek language study, i would say it takes many years to uncover truth all the while satan is waging war against them. I for one Laud their efforts-there is no doubt they are the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings. No doubt whatsoever.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

Do reject astrology as occult?
Awake! November 8, 2000, p. 27



Was this always their teaching?
1914 International Bible Students Souvenir Convention Report, p252.


Or how about the Original "Watchtower" Magasine which claimed they had the location of heaven?
Zion’s Watch Tower, May 15, 1895, p121.


And 33 years later they were still touting it:
Reconciliation (1928) p. 14. which you will not find on the wikipedia list but Im sutre your local Kingdom Hall Library will tell you wher to buy it from them.


How about communicating with the dead? Is that an occult practice you think is wrong? Or will you ask the Watchtower to tell you if it is wrong or not? Why can't you actually say if you think it is wrong without asking the WT?

Like i said many errors occured, but now the light is very bright. Gods word said the truth would become abundant in the last days and it has-through the faithful and discreet slave, no wheres else-- 1 religion-1 truth.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

So why then did the Watchtower use Johannes Greber in their translation and other people who spoke to spirits?

Foreword, The New Testament – a New Translation by Johannes Greber, 1937 (1980 printing). (Not a Watchtower publication).

The Watchtower, April 1, 1983 p. 31.


So in 1981 WT announced they were abandoning Greber because they only just found out about him communing with spirits?

But he had already told them years before and they printed it:
The Watchtower, February 15, 1956, p. 110-111.


Did you not know the WT knew about Greber in 1956?

In 1985, the Society published a new edition of their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. In Appendix 2A they added another "translation" to their list - that of John S. Thompson of Baltimore. This rendition, dated at 1829, is quoted as, "and the Logos was a god."

Who was John Thompson? The American Quarterly Review of September, 1830. Here we read Thompson saying, "I shall rejoice in having been the happy instrument, in the hand of God, of having done fourfold as much for mankind, as all the professed commentators of the last fifteen centuries!" Aside from a lack of humility, it seems Thompson was "moved about by every wind of doctrine" as well, moving from being a Calvinist to an Arminian Methodist preacher, to being a Restorationist, then on to an Arian Restorationist, until finally being a Unitarian Universalist Thompson admits to having experiences withspirit beings who instruct him to "be careful to represent Jesus as only the instrument of God in all he does.

Bet you didn't know that either?

I certainly wouldnt blame Mr Thompson from changing religions constantly-- its why new trinity based religions have popped up all throughout the years, because someone saw something wrong in the previous one and there was something wrong, yet it has never been fixed, just new ones 1000,s of them disunified throughout Gods good earth. Mr Thompson was correct--a god--

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Lets look at the facts and see what is indefensible--- When they JW leaders find an error they correct it, the average JW wouldnt know the difference, the ridiculing hearts pounce each time a correction is made-- But the ridicule doesnt matter to the JW leaders--truth matters that is why they make the required corrections---

So why did it take them 35 years to "correct" astrology?

why didn't they "correct" spirit writer Greber in 1958 when they knew about him .
Why did they wait till 1981?

Why did they accept another spirit writer from 1829 who they were still using in 1985?

And if the WT are speaking to the dead old leaders or to Jesus or to angels why do they keep getting these things wrong? How come they also get predictions of Armageddon wrong?

And if they only care about the truth why do they changed the actual numbers used in their actual predictions in later editions of certain books to fit in with the wrong predictions?

But here is a simple bible teaching that shows all who God is yet for 1750 years the trinity teachers refuse to make the correction( just 1 of many that prove them false)

Don't make me laugh at your chronologies and 1750 years.

So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject...

Thy Kingdom Come (copyright 1891) (1904 edition — Millennial Dawn, vol. 3) p.342.

Note the bits in bold Then in the 1910 edition -- Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 3 p.342.

So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject...

Go and get those WT books yourself if you don't believe me. Make sure you get the 1904 and 1910 edition.
Then when both dates were obviously wrong and the prophesy didn't come true (one wonders why it didn't given they claim to speak to angels and their dead leaders while at the same time saying speaking to the dead is occult and to be shunned) they later dropped the pyramid symbolism

If the pyramid is not mentioned in the Bible, then following its teachings is being led by vain philosophy and false science and not following after Christ… the great pyramid of Gizeh, as well as the other pyramids thereabout, also the sphinx, were built by the rulers of Egypt and under the directions of Satan the Devil... Then Satan put his knowledge in dead stone, which may be called Satan's Bible, and not God's stone witness...”

The Watchtower, November 15, 1928 pp. 341-344.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

I certainly wouldnt blame Mr Thompson from changing religions constantly

But the point is would you blame the WT for using a spirit writer as a listed translator?

-- its why new trinity based religions have popped up all throughout the years, because someone saw something wrong in the previous one and there was something wrong, yet it has never been fixed, just new ones 1000,s of them disunified throughout Gods good earth.

But you do realise that Catholics Orthodox and Anglican make up 80% and if you include other Mainstream Trinitarian Protestants like Lutheran and Methodist you get 95% plus and all the other 1000s constitute 1% of Christians and indeed most of Christianity (The five or so denominations making up nearly 99% ) don't even regard them as Christian.

Mr Thompson was correct--a god--

So you agree with a "spirit writer" then even though the WT tell you not to place any trust in occult lore?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Like i said many errors occured, but now the light is very bright. Gods word said the truth would become abundant in the last days and it has-through the faithful and discreet slave, no wheres else-- 1 religion-1 truth.

So you accept the Watchtower made repeated mistakes?

How aBOUT TALING TO THE DEAD AND TO ANGELS?
Do you think that is wrong and an occult practice?
You don't know what to think do you?
You have to ask you r boss what to think?
Tell you what if they talk to angels how are they making all these mistakes?
Maybe they are talking to the wrong kind of angels?
What kind of angels communicate things to you which you later find out to be errors?

And what about demons?
Where does the Bible or Christianity say demons inhabit objects?
Where did the Watchtower get that one from?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Yes i know they quoted Greber-- a mistake possibly, yet his quote was truth. Is teaching truth a mistake?

No it isn't! But how do you make a mistake if your leaders are prophets and the "faithful slaves" believed them. When their prophesy turned out to be false many of the slaves left!
How do you have faith in something which tells you something is certain and then you find out it isn't and they say "well I just made a mistake" . How could they if they are a true prophet?

Also how come they didn't admit it in 1958 when they knew Gerber was a spirit writer?
Is not admitting the truth for decades somehow teaching the truth?
When they found the real truth that Gerber was a spirit writer why didnt they teach it? Was it because he suited their dogma? So if
1. The WT are prepared to use the authority of spirit writers when they already know they are spirit writers and they already say communicating with the spirits is Satanic how do you know that
2. the current spirits they communicate with (against their own teachings) are not Satanic?

The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons (angels that became selfish rebels against God) and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.”
Reasoning From the Scriptures (rev. 1989) p. 386

If that in 1989 was agreeing with 1934

No one of the temple company would be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work.”
Jehovah (1934) p. 191.

how does this error fit with

It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John's thinking. (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John.

Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.

This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.

Basically if they told you the Trinity doctrine is actually true and they made "an error" you would believe it wouldn't you? Why can't you find out for yourself?