Jehovah Witness

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

So you accept the Watchtower made repeated mistakes?

How aBOUT TALING TO THE DEAD AND TO ANGELS?
Do you think that is wrong and an occult practice?
You don't know what to think do you?
You have to ask you r boss what to think?
Tell you what if they talk to angels how are they making all these mistakes?
Maybe they are talking to the wrong kind of angels?
What kind of angels communicate things to you which you later find out to be errors?

And what about demons?
Where does the Bible or Christianity say demons inhabit objects?
Where did the Watchtower get that one from?

When did they talk to angels and the dead-- 80-100 years ago--they repented of that-- The HS reveals many truths to the faithful slave( at the proper time) when God wills a truth to be known.
I know exactly what to think--i see things clearly-- i took my time and made sure of all things before i made my choice--i know of everything they did in their history basically, i have read many apostate writings.
One thing they refused to do was kill the members of their own religion because this govt hated that govt like the disunified trinity religions did in ww1,ww2--millions slaughtered and the family lines cut off-- alls because they threw away the teachings of Gods son to appease men--the clergies prayed on both sides for the quick destruction of the members of their own religion who stood on opposite sides. They even went as far as to allow the young men to kill for Adolf Hitler against their own supposed brothers in Christ-- and today if Nazi germany raised up against the allied side it would occur all over again.
Alls one needs to apply to the trinity religions is one teaching out of Gods word to prove them false--- A house divided will not stand.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

But the point is would you blame the WT for using a spirit writer as a listed translator?



But you do realise that Catholics Orthodox and Anglican make up 80% and if you include other Mainstream Trinitarian Protestants like Lutheran and Methodist you get 95% plus and all the other 1000s constitute 1% of Christians and indeed most of Christianity (The five or so denominations making up nearly 99% ) don't even regard them as Christian.



So you agree with a "spirit writer" then even though the WT tell you not to place any trust in occult lore?

I agree with truth no matter the source-- Jesus told everyone at John 17:1-6 that the Father is the only true God-- His followers taught that as well 1 cor 8:6--there is one God to all the Father--truth= any other teaching besides those two teachings are not truth. Jesus while sitting at Gods right hand stressed 4 times in 1 paragraph that he has a God rev 3:12--listen to Jesus. I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me, its always nice to be able to share spiritual things with others.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

But the point is would you blame the WT for using a spirit writer as a listed translator?



But you do realise that Catholics Orthodox and Anglican make up 80% and if you include other Mainstream Trinitarian Protestants like Lutheran and Methodist you get 95% plus and all the other 1000s constitute 1% of Christians and indeed most of Christianity (The five or so denominations making up nearly 99% ) don't even regard them as Christian.



So you agree with a "spirit writer" then even though the WT tell you not to place any trust in occult lore?

The main point is that they did correct the mistakes--one cannot possibly be right in the end without correcting the mistakes that are made. Even the false religions have some truths in them and i would agree with truth no matter the source. Should one disagree with truth because of a bad source?
God has never used more than 1 religion --Who do you say it is out of the 1000,s to choose from? One thing is certain they will be united in Love and peace.
All throughout the ot Gods elite fell to satans deceptions--the wisest man who ever lived ended up being an apostate, serving false gods-Solomon-- Gods word warned all--beware if you think you are standing strong.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

When did they talk to angels and the dead-- 80-100 years ago--they repented of that--

Just another "Error" was it? THey seem to be making a lot of "errors" for prophets don't they?

Was 2006 a hundred years ago? I thought it was about five years ago
Note "already in heaven" =dead!
Go and read your own books.

Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.

It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John's thinking. (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John.

The HS reveals many truths to the faithful slave( at the proper time) when God wills a truth to be known.

And many "errors" too. And many contradictions of speaking to the dead and not speaking to them and having these revelations from dead people which turn out to be wrong! how do you explain that?

I know exactly what to think--i see things clearly-- i took my time and made sure of all things before i made my choice--i know of everything they did in their history basically, i have read many apostate writings.

Well you seem to be ignorant of them. Ill bet you think you know about the Anti Nicean fathers but all you really know is Watchtower doctored versions. And how come you keep quoting spirit writers and "apostates" as sources for "a god" in John1:1 if you know they are not of your fold and therefore must be of Satan? Are you not running out of reliable sources for the mistranslated Greek?

One thing they refused to do was kill the members of their own religion because this govt hated that govt like the disunified trinity religions did in ww1,ww2--millions slaughtered and the family lines cut off--

Which Jews Christians and even atheist conscientious objectors did! And their numbers dwarf the numbers of JWs who did. By the way we know atheists Jews Chriatians Muslims etc all suffered in the past as did JW's. None of that is any argument as to whether their philosophy is correct.

Adolf Hitler against their own supposed brothers in Christ-- and today if Nazi germany raised up against the allied side it would occur all over again.

WE have been over the "hitler's popes" debate here before. It is a straw man. I can supply you with evidence on it if you are prepared to read it. If you promise to read it i will. It comes to about 30 pages -less than a Watchtower magasine. If you promise to read all of it I will supply you with it. Then you can show me wherever you think it is in error. But it isnt for this particular discussion as it is already being discussed elsewhere oin this forum.

Alls one needs to apply to the trinity religions is one teaching out of Gods word to prove them false--- A house divided will not stand.

And he goes on to say : 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The Son of Man is a man the son of God is a person o the trinity as is the holy spirit.

But as to houses divided Jesus is here referring to casting out demons being a trick by demons. He says why would demons attack themselves as they will destroy themselves? So i ask you does the Watchtower say that you should not speak to the dead?
A Watchtower divided can't stand either can it?

Jesus Shaves

kjw47 wrote: »

Lets look at the facts and see what is indefensible--- When they JW leaders find an error they correct it, the average JW wouldnt know the difference, the ridiculing hearts pounce each time a correction is made-- But the ridicule doesnt matter to the JW leaders--truth matters that is why they make the required corrections--- But here is a simple bible teaching that shows all who God is yet for 1750 years the trinity teachers refuse to make the correction( just 1 of many that prove them false)
Deuteronomy 32:4-- All of Gods ways are justice( that would be perfect justice) lets look at this justice scale of Gods--- The teaching of a literal place of eternal torment( hell,hades,sheol) on one side of the scale- 70-90 years of unrepented sin--- on the otherside of the scale-- trillions x trillions x trillions etc of years of never ending punishment---- very simple to see its not the true God of the bible-- a false sadistic teaching by religions that refuse to take ridicule and teach a lie, and they know its a lie--Why??? Because they do not know God and God is not with them. Jehovah is the true sovereign of the universe-Psalm 83:18

If God is leading them then why do they make so many mistakes
"Beware of false prophets"

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

I agree with truth no matter the source--

so if the Watchtower tells you an error and i show you the truth you are prepared to agree with me?
Well that is progress.
You accept the WT have been wrong in the past and you accept people outside the WT can show you truth.

Jesus told everyone at John 17:1-6 that the Father is the only true God-- His followers taught that as well 1 cor 8:6--there is one God to all the Father--truth= any other teaching besides those two teachings are not truth.

You seem to have a problem with the trinity of persons and unity of God. Mainstream Trinitarians do not disagree with any of the above. They believe in ONE God.

According to the teaching of the Trinity, there are three persons in one God, that is, there is ‘one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.’”

Jesus while sitting at Gods right hand stressed 4 times in 1 paragraph that he has a God rev 3:12--listen to Jesus. I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me, its always nice to be able to share spiritual things with others.

Submission to authority does not denote an inferior nature


Jesus has been under the authority of the Father because this is how the Trinity functions as 1 Corinthians 15:28 explains:

“When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

Throughout Scripture, we read how the Father directs the Son (1 Corinthians 11:3) and Holy Spirit (John 3:34; 14:16). That is why Jesus calls the Father “God” when He is in His Divine Nature. This would be like your son calling you “the Man of the House”. When your son calls you “the Man”, he does not mean to imply that he is less human than you, does he? Of course not! So, it is with Jesus calling the Father “My God”. He is not saying that the He is less “God” because the Father is His God. Rather, He is demonstrating that He is still under the authority of His Father God.

In addition to seeing Jesus and the Holy Spirit under the authority of the Father, we also read that the Son directs the Holy Spirit under the will of the Father (Galatians 4:6; John 15:26). So just as in a family where the wife and children follow the lead of the father (1 Corinthians 11:3), so it is with the order of the Trinity.

If you expect a wife to follow her husband do you think she is less human for doing that?

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

The main point is that they did correct the mistakes

So you agree with a "spirit writer" then even though the WT tell you not to place any trust in occult lore?

--one cannot possibly be right in the end without correcting the mistakes that are made.

But if the truth is revealed to your leaders from god angels ot elders in heaven how are they always getting it wrong?

Even the false religions have some truths in them and i would agree with truth no matter the source.

Yes. So you agree - if the Watchtower is false it might still have some truth.

Should one disagree with truth because of a bad source?

Not at all . Im prepared to agree with a JW like you on that. But you are told that JW are on God's side and everyone else is on Satan's side. So how can you agree with Satan's side? Might it be a way of making you close of to anything but blind faith in the WT.

God has never used more than 1 religion

So what?

--Who do you say it is out of the 1000,s to choose from?

I'm not claiming to be of any religion. You are the one saying JW's have it! It isn't for me to prove anything. Look up "shifting the burden" under "logical fallacy"

All throughout the ot Gods elite fell to satans deceptions--the wisest man who ever lived ended up being an apostate, serving false gods-Solomon-- Gods word warned all--beware if you think you are standing strong.

A Daniel has come among us to judgement! as Shylock said.
Look please explain the above contradictions in JW theology would you?. Don't try to shift this onto loads of other Christians to justify themselves.

Why do you listen to spirit writers and necromancers?
Why don't you try answering at least one of the questions you are asked honestly instead of asking your bosses what to type next?
I don't mind if you make a mistake. the only problem I have so far is your blind faith in a leadership who make mistakes and have occult connections while denying the occult.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

So you agree with a "spirit writer" then even though the WT tell you not to place any trust in occult lore?



But if the truth is revealed to your leaders from god angels ot elders in heaven how are they always getting it wrong?



Yes. So you agree - if the Watchtower is false it might still have some truth.



Not at all . Im prepared to agree with a JW like you on that. But you are told that JW are on God's side and everyone else is on Satan's side. So how can you agree with Satan's side? Might it be a way of making you close of to anything but blind faith in the WT.



So what?


I'm not claiming to be of any religion. You are the one saying JW's have it! It isn't for me to prove anything. Look up "shifting the burden" under "logical fallacy"




A Daniel has come among us to judgement! as Shylock said.
Look please explain the above contradictions in JW theology would you?. Don't try to shift this onto loads of other Christians to justify themselves.

Why do you listen to spirit writers and necromancers?
Why don't you try answering at least one of the questions you are asked honestly instead of asking your bosses what to type next?
I don't mind if you make a mistake. the only problem I have so far is your blind faith in a leadership who make mistakes and have occult connections while denying the occult.

King Solomon became a false God worshipper at the end--there is nothing worse than someone who had dedicated themself to God and then turned and became an apostate==yet God still allowed the books he wrote to be in his written word. Was God wrong--isnt false God worship part of the occult? So what mattered then= Truth?
Anyone can become an apostate against God-- King Solomon proved that--yet he was Gods elite spiritual king-his elite teacher of truth.It didnt make Gods whole religion wrong.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

King Solomon became a false God worshipper at the end--there is nothing worse than someone who had dedicated themself to God and then turned and became an apostate==yet God still allowed the books he wrote to be in his written word. Was God wrong--isnt false God worship part of the occult? So what mattered then= Truth?
Anyone can become an apostate against God-- King Solomon proved that--yet he was Gods elite spiritual king-his elite teacher of truth.It didnt make Gods whole religion wrong.

What do you say about those WT leaders today who "talk to the dead"?
why do you follow them if they follow false practices?

o1s1n

kjw47 wrote: »

Like i said many errors occured, but now the light is very bright. Gods word said the truth would become abundant in the last days and it has-through the faithful and discreet slave, no wheres else-- 1 religion-1 truth.

Whoever in the organization came up with that one was an absolute genius. It gives them the power to change whatever they want and at the same time account to ANY and ALL errors they've made.

I know a lot of JWs and whenever I approach them with an issue (the association with the UN as a NGO, changes in doctrine etc) they come back at me with that 'light' stuff. It literally makes it impossible to form any kind of arguement.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

What do you say about those WT leaders today who "talk to the dead"?
why do you follow them if they follow false practices?

They do not actually talk to the dead--you are making that up-- its fact that once Jesus rose into heaven that the bride of Christ= the little flock= 144,000 also started to go up as well upon their deaths. Gods word says they will be kings and priests alongside of Jesus--do you think this was so they can sit there and twittle their thumbs and be no part of what is going on? i doubt it very much, so if God sees fit that they are apart of the revealing of truths, thats how it will occur.
And its fact that a mortal can get into Gods elite positions and then turn or be turned-and get errors in. It happened all throughout the ot--Gods elite were turned and decieved by satan over and over again and errors got into teachings and practices--yet they were still Gods religion. And the way God turned them around was by sending a mortal with truth to tell them to change the errors. A mortal with truth he recieved from heaven.

Paparazzo

JimiTime wrote: »

I still lament when I see the spoonfed defence of the indefensible by JW's As someone who used to use the same spoon, I pray your eyes be opened kjw47 (And I truly mean that. I don't mean it in a condescending way. I just relate to it so much). Reading your posts is like looking into a mirror of me from 12 years ago. Like me, you think you've got it sussed. An answer for everything, and it makes you feel secure. It feels good to simply 'know'. Your faith in the 'orgnisation' is unquestioning, and you don't even bother to look into things, because your trust is so great in these people, that you 'know' that they are not going to give you anything but truth. Nothing that people say will sink in, as you are just so sure. I've been there, and every untruth that is spoken about the JW's (Of which there are many), makes you even more sure that its all baloney or misunderstanding.

I pray, that like me, a simple event just triggers something in you that you just can't ignore and that the house of cards falls. Thank God, I never was baptised when I was there, but thankfully even my family members that were saw the light too. Indeed, you are reading this thinking, 'apostate', just like I used to do. I genuinely hope that you eventually question PROPERLY, what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society actually are. I certainly don't think argument will convince you, so I wont go there, but maybe someday something just wont seem right to you, and you'll recall this post without thinking its Satan 'getting in', and think outside of the 'organisation'. I know some really genuine JW's, who truly just want to serve God. I just hope that with Gods grace they will one day serve him, without feeling the need for the mediation of the WBATS.

God Bless.
Jimi.

After spending a lot of time reading JW arguments over the years, this post makes perfect sense.
ISAW, you're completely wasting your time. Some day kjw47 may question something, or really "see the light", but i guarantee, this thread will desend into a long running thread where you'll end up going around in circles getting absolutely nowhere.

o1s1n

kjw47 wrote: »

Gods elite were turned and decieved by satan over and over again and errors got into teachings and practices--yet they were still Gods religion. And the way God turned them around was by sending a mortal with truth to tell them to change the errors. A mortal with truth he recieved from heaven.

It's all well and good talking about this in the abstract. my problem is when it's applied to real life situations.

You are part of an organization which disfellowships people. Something which ends up in split families and some very unhappy lives. You cannot partake in this life changing practice and at the same time alter the goal posts.

I'll give you an (extreme) example of what I'm talking about -

Years ago a JW could smoke cigarettes. That JW may have spent their whole life smoking, died and now they're part of the 144,000.

A JW in todays world may like smoking just as much. However since the 'light has changed' if they refuse to give it up they will be disfellowshipped.

What happens to them? Why does one person get to spend eternity in heaven and the other doesn't even get to live on earth in paradise?

JWs always talk about being 'born into religions' being wrong - this is the same thing. People born in different eras are being subject to different religious standards because the organization is changing their beliefs.

This logic obviously doesn't just apply to smoking, but any JW teaching which has changed over the years.

I know JWs who have been part of the religion for 30-40 years, had another 'new light change' happen (generation of 1914 will not pass away for example) and just couldn't deal with it.

ISAW

o1s1n wrote: »

Whoever in the organization came up with that one was an absolute genius. It gives them the power to change whatever they want and at the same time account to ANY and ALL errors they've made.

I know a lot of JWs and whenever I approach them with an issue (the association with the UN as a NGO, changes in doctrine etc) they come back at me with that 'light' stuff. It literally makes it impossible to form any kind of arguement.

But what it actually means is "we were wrong and we now have a different stance" without actually admitting they were wrong. And sometimes they slip back into the old "wrong" stance or don't ever tell their own members when they know about errors for decades.

kjw47

o1s1n wrote: »

It's all well and good talking about this in the abstract. my problem is when it's applied to real life situations.

You are part of an organization which disfellowships people. Something which ends up in split families and some very unhappy lives. You cannot partake in this life changing practice and at the same time alter the goal posts.

I'll give you an (extreme) example of what I'm talking about -

Years ago a JW could smoke cigarettes. That JW may have spent their whole life smoking, died and now they're part of the 144,000.

A JW in todays world may like smoking just as much. However since the 'light has changed' if they refuse to give it up they will be disfellowshipped.

What happens to them? Why does one person get to spend eternity in heaven and the other doesn't even get to live on earth in paradise?

JWs always talk about being 'born into religions' being wrong - this is the same thing. People born in different eras are being subject to different religious standards because the organization is changing their beliefs.

This logic obviously doesn't just apply to smoking, but any JW teaching which has changed over the years.

I know JWs who have been part of the religion for 30-40 years, had another 'new light change' happen (generation of 1914 will not pass away for example) and just couldn't deal with it.

I can see in a way your reasoning about things like smoking--but hasnt God changed his dealings along the way? like for example adulterers were to be stoned to death, but God changed that to being disfellowshipped so as to give them an opportunity to repent and come back to him. would being stoned to death be the choice of one or is disfellowshipping a better choice? Would Lots wife have chosen instant death or disfellowshipping? Which choice would Lot and his daughter have wanted for her?
Incest was a part of life in the early ot--and even Lot did that after God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah--but now one would be disfellowshipped and not allowed into Gods kingdom if left unrepented.
Men didnt really understand how bad smoking was back then, and as well they werent adding all of the poisions that they are adding today. As well as increasing the nicotine. So yes life has always been progressive and so has Gods dealings.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

They do not actually talk to the dead--you are making that up--

It is all above in message 155
It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John's thinking. (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John.
Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.

Note "already in heaven" = dead don't you agree?
You disagree with your own stated anointed ones from 2006!

And its fact that a mortal can get into Gods elite positions and then turn or be turned-and get errors in. It happened all throughout the ot--Gods elite were turned and decieved by satan over and over again and errors got into teachings and practices--yet they were still Gods religion.

Solomon was ALIVE! You are talking about elders talking to DEAD people and angels!
Are you claiming the current leadership are teaching errors or not?
The current leadership who commune with spirits?

And the way God turned them around was by sending a mortal with truth to tell them to change the errors. A mortal with truth he recieved from heaven.

But we are talking about mortals ( current leaders in 2006) who commune with spirits.
Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.
Go and read your own books!

ISAW

How about talking to angels:

Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them.
The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.

Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it.
Preparation, (1933) pp. 36, 37.

This verse (Revelation 8:3) shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work. We hold that he supervises, by the Lord's arrangement, the work yet to be done. The Finished Mystery (1917) pp. 144, 256
Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon.
Watchtower Reprints, November 1, 1917 p. 6161.

Were the people who wrote that all corrupted by Satan? Yo are talking about the founder of your religion you know?
So if the leadership of 1935 and 1917 was doing Satan's work communing with the dead or angels why didn't the WT say that even today and how do you know the current bunch who commune with spirits of the dead are legitimate?

o1s1n

kjw47 wrote: »

I can see in a way your reasoning about things like smoking--but hasnt God changed his dealings along the way? like for example adulterers were to be stoned to death, but God changed that to being disfellowshipped so as to give them an opportunity to repent and come back to him. would being stoned to death be the choice of one or is disfellowshipping a better choice? Would Lots wife have chosen instant death or disfellowshipping? Which choice would Lot and his daughter have wanted for her?
Incest was a part of life in the early ot--and even Lot did that after God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah--but now one would be disfellowshipped and not allowed into Gods kingdom if left unrepented.
Men didnt really understand how bad smoking was back then, and as well they werent adding all of the poisions that they are adding today. As well as increasing the nicotine. So yes life has always been progressive and so has Gods dealings.

Here's the thing though - adultery is one of those issues that the bible is pretty black and white on. You can't really argue with it.

The problem with the JW organization though is that they get involved in matters which, biblically, fall into grey areas. Things which aren't exactly spelled out the way adultery is and could be open to interpretation.

You don't smoke because it 'defiles your body' - okay, I understand that (and it makes sense).
However, why do I then know JWs who drink/eat excessively and pierce their ears? I am sure your average JW does things which 'defiles their body' in ways they don't even realize on a daily basis. I'm sure there have been cases in the states where an obese fatty elder has disfelloweshipped someone for smoking and then gone out to Mc Donalds and eaten themselves silly.

How about issues of sex? I've seen yo-yoing back and forth with elders as to what level they can be involved in the marital bed. At one time certain sexual practices arent allowed, at later dates it's none of the elders business, oh look, opinion has changed again and now you can be disfellowshipped for engaging in X,Y and Z.

There are simply too many changes which from my own studying of this religion, seem to be at the whim of whoever happens to be in charge at that time. You like to think they're set apart from politics, but the politics itself which goes on within that organization is just as bad.

The fact that you have pretty much granted them the ability to change your belief whenever they want with this 'new light' thing is worrying.

When do you draw the line? What if, tomorrow, they change something which happens to be a core part of your belief? I'll go back to that 1914 generation thing again - there were people who were expecting to see armageddon while that generation was still alive. Elderly people whom that was ingraned into. That interpretation was then changed due to 'new light' in 2006/07 (I can't remember which).
A lot of people left because of that as it was a core part of their belief. A lot of other people also left because they saw how, 'coincidentally' this change was made when all of this 1914 generation seemed to be dying off.

Are they now apostates simply for believing something the organization once taught? And if so, why are THEY apostates but not those who maybe died believing that before the change in 'light'??

Benny_Cake

o1s1n wrote: »

When do you draw the line? What if, tomorrow, they change something which happens to be a core part of your belief? I'll go back to that 1914 generation thing again - there were people who were expecting to see armageddon while that generation was still alive. Elderly people whom that was ingraned into. That interpretation was then changed due to 'new light' in 2006/07 (I can't remember which).
A lot of people left because of that as it was a core part of their belief. A lot of other people also left because they saw how, 'coincidentally' this change was made when all of this 1914 generation seemed to be dying off.

That change happened in 1995. In that year, the meaning of generation was changed from a defined period of 70 or 80 years to "contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics," (very vague!). Since then, the meaning of "generation" has changed two more times, I think it now has something to do with the last of the 144,000 or something like that. There is an old Newsweek article on the change in 1995 here.

In one sense it seems laughable, but for people who spent their whole lives giving up huge amounts of time to spread the word it must be devastating.

kjw47

o1s1n wrote: »

Here's the thing though - adultery is one of those issues that the bible is pretty black and white on. You can't really argue with it.

The problem with the JW organization though is that they get involved in matters which, biblically, fall into grey areas. Things which aren't exactly spelled out the way adultery is and could be open to interpretation.

You don't smoke because it 'defiles your body' - okay, I understand that (and it makes sense).
However, why do I then know JWs who drink/eat excessively and pierce their ears? I am sure your average JW does things which 'defiles their body' in ways they don't even realize on a daily basis. I'm sure there have been cases in the states where an obese fatty elder has disfelloweshipped someone for smoking and then gone out to Mc Donalds and eaten themselves silly.

How about issues of sex? I've seen yo-yoing back and forth with elders as to what level they can be involved in the marital bed. At one time certain sexual practices arent allowed, at later dates it's none of the elders business, oh look, opinion has changed again and now you can be disfellowshipped for engaging in X,Y and Z.

There are simply too many changes which from my own studying of this religion, seem to be at the whim of whoever happens to be in charge at that time. You like to think they're set apart from politics, but the politics itself which goes on within that organization is just as bad.

The fact that you have pretty much granted them the ability to change your belief whenever they want with this 'new light' thing is worrying.

When do you draw the line? What if, tomorrow, they change something which happens to be a core part of your belief? I'll go back to that 1914 generation thing again - there were people who were expecting to see armageddon while that generation was still alive. Elderly people whom that was ingraned into. That interpretation was then changed due to 'new light' in 2006/07 (I can't remember which).
A lot of people left because of that as it was a core part of their belief. A lot of other people also left because they saw how, 'coincidentally' this change was made when all of this 1914 generation seemed to be dying off.

Are they now apostates simply for believing something the organization once taught? And if so, why are THEY apostates but not those who maybe died believing that before the change in 'light'??

The biggest issue i see in your reasoning is this-- If they are the Faithful slave whom Jesus appointed, and he said of these persay--What ever you do to the least of these my brothers, you do to me-- Then its by Gods will things have occured as they have and there isnt one who should question why God does things this way-- But it would cleanse out the ones who werent there for the right reasons to start with. Because when the blank hits the fan and the whole world is raising up against Gods people during the tribulation and some advice comes down from the top that just doesnt seem to fit rational thinking, is one going to question that point or act upon it in faith that God is directing them?
Also that generation is 98 now-there are still some alive--Jesus is coming like a thief in the night and the doing away with babylon the great is like a swift pitch into the sea with a millstone around her neck-- We all shall see.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

How about talking to angels:

Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them.
The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.

Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it.
Preparation, (1933) pp. 36, 37.

This verse (Revelation 8:3) shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work. We hold that he supervises, by the Lord's arrangement, the work yet to be done. The Finished Mystery (1917) pp. 144, 256
Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon.
Watchtower Reprints, November 1, 1917 p. 6161.

Were the people who wrote that all corrupted by Satan? Yo are talking about the founder of your religion you know?
So if the leadership of 1935 and 1917 was doing Satan's work communing with the dead or angels why didn't the WT say that even today and how do you know the current bunch who commune with spirits of the dead are legitimate?

God used angels many times in his written will to direct his will to mortals. Jesus was dead-yet 3 days later talked to his followers.
Truth was hidden from mankind until these last days where Gods word said it would become abundant--it has through the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings,At the proper time-not before.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

God used angels many times in his written will to direct his will to mortals.

You are contradicting yourself! You sai it hadn't happened in 80-100 years!
your words:

When did they talk to angels and the dead-- 80-100 years ago--they repented of that--

Did they repent?
But the current WT says speaking o the dead and to angels is doing Satan's work and you agree already they should repent for doing it!

But the WT claim it is currently done:

Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.

It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John's thinking. (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John.

And if they were continually wrong and false prophets doing
Satan's bidding in the past how do you know they are suddenly correct now especially when they preach the same message ( talking to the dead) you already said they should repent for doing?

(Deuteronomy 18:20-22): While proclaiming to be “God’s Prophet” and speaking “in the name of Jehovah,” the Watchtower announced several false dates for the end of the world and even proclaimed that Christ’s presence had began in 1874. This false proclamation of Christ’s presence is the precise warning that Jesus gave to His followers when He said that “false prophets” would proclaim this in the last days! (See Matthew 24:11, 23-24) Why would Jehovah appoint a group to represent Him that was doing the very thing Jesus warned “false prophets” would do in the last days?

Truth does not fear examination. If an organization cannot stand up under examination, it is not the truth but is rather a counterfeit and loyalty to a counterfeit is disloyalty to Jehovah God.

Jesus was dead-yet 3 days later talked to his followers.

Yeah. It is called the Ressurection.It is the central mystery and belief of Christianity. You just don't happen to beliueve it because the WT tell you not to believe in bodily ressurection or that Jesus was God.

Thomas didn't believe but he saw the actual body and then he believed and said my Lord and my God He referred to Christ and Christ did not correct him!
Why would Jesus somehow try to fool Thomas into seeing a hologram or a spirit body and thinking it was real?

Truth was hidden from mankind until these last days where Gods word said it would become abundant--it has through the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus appointed over his belongings,At the proper time-not before.

Nonsense. Jesus left a church after himself. They left the scriptures . Nothing else is required. You don't have to add to them. It is all there. There are no hidden secrets.
Except perhaps the secret of only Jesus (not the WT who continually get it wrong ) knowing the day or the hour

And while people may have been guided by God to interpret his message NONE of them made even ONE, let alone making continual false prophesies over the last century! Nor did they issue contradictory statements ! Nor did they hide the truth and later when found out say "oh we have changed our mind"
How could Jehovah change his mind?

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself! You sai it hadn't happened in 80-100 years!
your words:


Did they repent?
But the current WT says speaking o the dead and to angels is doing Satan's work and you agree already they should repent for doing it!

But the WT claim it is currently done:

Revelation - Its Grand climax At Hand! (rev. 2006) p. 125.


And if they were continually wrong and false prophets doing
Satan's bidding in the past how do you know they are suddenly correct now especially when they preach the same message ( talking to the dead) you already said they should repent for doing?

(Deuteronomy 18:20-22): While proclaiming to be “God’s Prophet” and speaking “in the name of Jehovah,” the Watchtower announced several false dates for the end of the world and even proclaimed that Christ’s presence had began in 1874. This false proclamation of Christ’s presence is the precise warning that Jesus gave to His followers when He said that “false prophets” would proclaim this in the last days! (See Matthew 24:11, 23-24) Why would Jehovah appoint a group to represent Him that was doing the very thing Jesus warned “false prophets” would do in the last days?

Truth does not fear examination. If an organization cannot stand up under examination, it is not the truth but is rather a counterfeit and loyalty to a counterfeit is disloyalty to Jehovah God.



Yeah. It is called the Ressurection.It is the central mystery and belief of Christianity. You just don't happen to beliueve it because the WT tell you not to believe in bodily ressurection or that Jesus was God.

Thomas didn't believe but he saw the actual body and then he believed and said my Lord and my God He referred to Christ and Christ did not correct him!
Why would Jesus somehow try to fool Thomas into seeing a hologram or a spirit body and thinking it was real?



Nonsense. Jesus left a church after himself. They left the scriptures . Nothing else is required. You don't have to add to them. It is all there. There are no hidden secrets.
Except perhaps the secret of only Jesus (not the WT who continually get it wrong ) knowing the day or the hour

And while people may have been guided by God to interpret his message NONE of them made even ONE, let alone making continual false prophesies over the last century! Nor did they issue contradictory statements ! Nor did they hide the truth and later when found out say "oh we have changed our mind"
How could Jehovah change his mind?

I asked you when it happened, i didnt say it happened 80-100- years ago.
They dont speak to the dead or to angels--you are twisting what they said.
What was said 120 years ago was a man trying to undo 1750 years of lies being taught-the light is very bright now.
The JW,s know for sure Jesus was ressurected--He is our king.
Yes the scriptures were left, unfortunately trinity translators erred in many places altering things to fit their teachings.
Over the last century only the JW,s have given truth to the world,the rest calling themselves christian still teach the false teachings handed down from generation to generation for the last 1750 years. False teachings like a literal place of eternal torment being taught about a God of love--deut 32:4 = all of Gods ways are justice--is this truth??? yes-- 70-90 years of sin on one side of the justice scale-- trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of years of never ending punishment-- not the God taught at deut 32:4-- thus a false teaching by those who do not know God.Because satan entered at those councils and twisted everything he could.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

I asked you when it happened, i didnt say it happened 80-100- years ago.

did too!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76400763&postcount=152
where you stated:

When did they talk to angels and the dead-- 80-100 years ago--they repented of that--

How could you claim they repented for something if it didn't happen?
You don't seem to be paying attention to what you are being told to believe do you?

They dont speak to the dead or to angels--you are twisting what they said.
What was said 120 years ago was a man trying to undo 1750 years of lies being taught

Look this is what they said . do you deny it says they communicated with the dead an angels?

No one of the temple company would be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work.”
Jehovah (1934) p. 191.

Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them.
The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.

Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it.
Preparation, (1933) pp. 36, 37.

-the light is very bright now.

Think about what that means. The light of truth is better and brighter now than it was. If something is true is it not always true. How does it suddenly become less true and a completely opposite "brighter" notion become true. IOf the new version is true and is the opposite e.g. certain things which were totally acceptable now become terribly bad
talking to angels or the dead
pyramidology
failed prophesy
occult connections

They are not just "dimmer" they are "FALSE" ! So by "the light is brighter" you mean "they were wrong"
The Watchtower were wrong! that is what your "brighter now" actually means
Think about it!

so the "darker" version is the wrong version.
So basically you founder and all the people you believe are chosen to go to heaven (who falsely claimed it was in the Pliades and who practiced astrology ) were false according to you!

The JW,s know for sure Jesus was ressurected--He is our king.

You don't believe his body was ressurected or that he was/is God.
Thomas ( who doubted the bodily ressurection) said
"I see and I believe- - My Lord and My God"
Jesus did not correct him!

Yes the scriptures were left, unfortunately trinity translators erred in many places altering things to fit their teachings.

Christians have no problem with the word "Jehovah". It does not appear in the Bible . It is a modern English/Latin Character word. the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek and occasional Aramaic.

The Watchtower ( see above) praised the translators for their diligence and then later contradicted themselves.

The Trinity was an established doctrine of early church Fathers from the first to thiord century before the Council of Nicaea. Several of the Early church father wrote about it. the only altered things is the history altered by the Watchtower. You can get the entire works of Early church fathers instead of reading the Watchtowers selected quotes.
Here:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

Entirely free no charge. Not roman Catholic or Protestant before all that. The original writers of the first four centuries Including reference to heretical and apostate writings of that time and all those arguments. All the arguments raised by the JW dealt with over 1700 years ago! REad them for free! You don't have to pay like you do for the Watchtower.

Volume I. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus

Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.

Volume II. Fathers of the Second Century

Hermas, Tatian, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria

Volume III. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

Three Parts: I. Apologetic; II. Anti-Marcion; III. Ethical

Volume IV. The Fathers of the Third Century

Tertullian Part IV; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen

Volume V. The Fathers of the Third Century

Hippolytus; Cyprian; Caius; Novatian; Appendix

Volume VI. The Fathers of the Third Century

Gregory Thaumaturgus; Dinoysius the Great; Julius Africanus; Anatolius and Minor Writers; Methodius; Arnobius

Volume VII. The Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries

Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, Liturgies

Volume VIII.

The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First Ages

Volume IX. Recently Discovered Additions to Early Christian Literature; Commentaries of Origen

The Gospel of Peter, The Diatessaron of Tatian, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Visio Pauli, The Apocalypses of the Virgin and Sedrach, The Testament of Abraham, The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena, The Narrative of Zosimus, The Apology of Aristides, The Epistles of Clement (Complete Text), Origen's Commentary on John, Books I-X, Origen's Commentary on Mathew, Books I, II, and X-XIV

I can show you the references to the Trinity if you are actually interested in the original and not in the WT quote mining. do you believe in the original or in what the Watchtower tell you the original said?

Over the last century only the JW,s have given truth to the world,the rest calling themselves christian still teach the false teachings handed down from generation to generation for the last 1750 years.

Buit above you admit the WT had FALSE teachings which are now not true . They are "dark" teachings! wher they claimed to speak to the dead and angels and dfo astrology and study pyramids and the occult. This was the actual JW leadership of the time!

The books from 1700 years ago are still around. you can look at them yourself for free above!

Because satan entered at those councils and twisted everything he could.

So SAtan entered the WT council 100 years ago and asked them to believe in astrology and pyramidology and talk to the dead and angels. If the founders of the JW were dark how do you know the current leadership isn't?

You already admit the WT were wrong in the past and had false prophesies. How do you know they are right now?

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

did too!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76400763&postcount=152
where you stated:


How could you claim they repented for something if it didn't happen?
You don't seem to be paying attention to what you are being told to believe do you?




Look this is what they said . do you deny it says they communicated with the dead an angels?

No one of the temple company would be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work.”
Jehovah (1934) p. 191.

Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them.
The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.

Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it.
Preparation, (1933) pp. 36, 37.



Think about what that means. The light of truth is better and brighter now than it was. If something is true is it not always true. How does it suddenly become less true and a completely opposite "brighter" notion become true. IOf the new version is true and is the opposite e.g. certain things which were totally acceptable now become terribly bad
talking to angels or the dead
pyramidology
failed prophesy
occult connections

They are not just "dimmer" they are "FALSE" ! So by "the light is brighter" you mean "they were wrong"
The Watchtower were wrong! that is what your "brighter now" actually means
Think about it!

so the "darker" version is the wrong version.
So basically you founder and all the people you believe are chosen to go to heaven (who falsely claimed it was in the Pliades and who practiced astrology ) were false according to you!


You don't believe his body was ressurected or that he was/is God.
Thomas ( who doubted the bodily ressurection) said
"I see and I believe- - My Lord and My God"
Jesus did not correct him!



Christians have no problem with the word "Jehovah". It does not appear in the Bible . It is a modern English/Latin Character word. the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek and occasional Aramaic.

The Watchtower ( see above) praised the translators for their diligence and then later contradicted themselves.

The Trinity was an established doctrine of early church Fathers from the first to thiord century before the Council of Nicaea. Several of the Early church father wrote about it. the only altered things is the history altered by the Watchtower. You can get the entire works of Early church fathers instead of reading the Watchtowers selected quotes.
Here:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

Entirely free no charge. Not roman Catholic or Protestant before all that. The original writers of the first four centuries Including reference to heretical and apostate writings of that time and all those arguments. All the arguments raised by the JW dealt with over 1700 years ago! REad them for free! You don't have to pay like you do for the Watchtower.



I can show you the references to the Trinity if you are actually interested in the original and not in the WT quote mining. do you believe in the original or in what the Watchtower tell you the original said?



Buit above you admit the WT had FALSE teachings which are now not true . They are "dark" teachings! wher they claimed to speak to the dead and angels and dfo astrology and study pyramids and the occult. This was the actual JW leadership of the time!

The books from 1700 years ago are still around. you can look at them yourself for free above!




So SAtan entered the WT council 100 years ago and asked them to believe in astrology and pyramidology and talk to the dead and angels. If the founders of the JW were dark how do you know the current leadership isn't?

You already admit the WT were wrong in the past and had false prophesies. How do you know they are right now?

Are you an apostate?
Ok i erred in saying they repented of talking to the dead.
Being instructed and given truths doesnt mean one talks to them.
Gods word doesnt say his body was ressurected--in fact he appeared behind a locked door--fleshly bodies do not do that. And yes angels can appear in fleshly bodies-the demons used to as well in Noahs day and have sex with the women who had demon babies( nephilim) So even though he was raised in incorruption( spirit) he could still appear with a fleshly body if he wanted to.
You are right i know for sure that Jesus is not God--God would never come down here and let mortals do what they did, he is to holy,holy,holy.
Yes i agree satan got in because he is at war with Jesus,s seed--they make corrections once a bad teaching or practice gets in--they do not start a new religion.
I never said the wt had false prophecies--please do not twist what i say--on that matter i say the prophecy of harmageddon was made by God not the wts--they erred by putting a date on it. that was their mistake-the prophecy allready existed.
I dont need to read the words of the old writings you mentioned--i have no doubts or never will. Its easy to see.

ISAW

kjw47 wrote: »

Are you an apostate?

dont know what you mean. How are you or your admittedly false prophets judges of what an apostate is?

Ok i erred in saying they repented of talking to the dead.

What do you mean by that?
1. They didn't repent- i.e. you believe they talked to the dead or said they did
or
2. The did repent - i.e. the leaders of the WT erred and used "dark" methods of Satran?
or
3. they never talked to the dead and never stated that they did

You can include angels and supernatural beings with "dead" above

Being instructed and given truths doesnt mean one talks to them.

You can use "communicated with" instead of "talked to" if you wish.

Did the WT leaders communicate with spirits with the dead or with angels?
did they subsequently say this was a "dark" practice supported by Satan?

Did they also use occult practices like astrology and pyramidology or the winged Sun?
I have shown you their own writings on it.
Do you deny these writings exist?

Gods word doesnt say his body was ressurected--in fact he appeared behind a locked door--fleshly bodies do not do that.

God can do all sorts of things. Nothin ius impossible for God. water doesen't turn into wine Eithher does it? Nor can people walk on water. But Jesus apparently did both BEFORE he died! fleshy bodies can't do that either can they? But Jesus fleshy body apparently walked on water! So can fleshy bodies do that or not? And why would Jesus try to Con thomas who wanted to see the actual fleshy body?

And yes angels can appear in fleshly bodies-the demons used to as well in Noahs day and have sex with the women who had demon babies( nephilim) So even though he was raised in incorruption( spirit) he could still appear with a fleshly body if he wanted to.

In many Wicca and Witchcraft systems the Watchtowers are evocational symbols of spiritual beings known as the Watchers or the Grigori.
Wikipedia, “Watchtower (magic)” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchtower_magic

The Grigori are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim, who are described as giants in Genesis 6:4. Also known as "Watchers" (from Greek egrḗgoroi (ἐγρήγοροι)), the Grigori appear in the books of Enoch and Jubilees.
Wikipedia, “ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_angel
see under "Slavonic Enoch"
"Grigori" redirects here
The Greek term egrḗgoroi (ἐγρήγοροι)) or Grigori is transliterated into Slavonic in the Second Book of Enoch. In 2 Enoch 18 (Slavonic Enoch) the "Grigori" (egregoroi) are located in the fifth heaven, and from among them 200 princes fall


The inspired Scriptures tell us that sometime before the great Flood of Noah’s day, certain angels began to take an unusual interest in the women on earth. These unions were unnatural, and they produced hybrid offspring known as Nephilim…Ever since the wicked angels lost “their original position,” they have been the demon companions of Satan and have served his evil interests.
The Watchtower, March 15, 2007, pp. 26-7

You are right i know for sure that Jesus is not God--God would never come down here and let mortals do what they did, he is to holy,holy,holy.

How about man says : but it is easy for you to tell us how to live you are God you don't have to live like us.
God says: Tell you what just so i can convince you I will take on a human form and live life exactly like a human and not use any god powers to assist myself to overcome any disadvantage of being human ( although i might do the odd miracle to help others) and in that lesson I hope to teach you that ANY HUMAN can do exactly what I do. It is a simple way to show you how to recover from the Fall. No super powers or God powers are necessary.

Yes i agree satan got in because he is at war with Jesus,s seed--they make corrections once a bad teaching or practice gets in--they do not start a new religion.

If they make correction to "dark" teachings such as using the occult and they make false prophesies then how do you know they were inspired by God when the current leadership say they weren't but that they were using "dark" practices?

I never said the wt had false prophecies--please do not twist what i say--on that matter i say the prophecy of harmageddon was made by God not the wts--they erred by putting a date on it.

Prophecy=prediction that something is happening at a certain date.
False prophesy = It didn't happen when they predicted.

It didnt happen at least FIVE times. Then they CHANGED their Pyramid predictions in later books . did the size of the pyramid passage change? No! they just changed the numbers they used for length. Then when they were again wrong they said pyramids are against the Bible! You have the references above in JW books. go and read them!

Errors= False prophesy! Dark materials.

If they were wrong so many times and now say that their practices were wrong how do you know they are right now?

I dont need to read the words of the old writings you mentioned--i have no doubts or never will. Its easy to see.

If you don't need to read are you taking your belief from the Bible or what The Watchtower or JW leaders tell you?

“We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.” —The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1968, p. 13

“Satan attempted to use his influence in a subtle way, and in this he was successful. How so? By insinuation and falsehood. He put forth error, under cover of a lie, as a substitute for truth. In other words, he put darkness for light.” —The Watchtower, May 15, 1976, p. 304

“If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. ‘New light’ never extinguished older ‘light,’ but adds to it.... So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another.” — Zion’s Watch Tower, February 1881, p. 3

If "new light" adds to old light how do you reconcile the "old light" = Dark practice of communicating with the dead, talking to angels, using the occult pyramidology and astrology?

gawker

KJW47, seeing you on this thread reminds me of a project I did a while ago on how the Watchtower deals with the internet. Check this out:

"Modern computers have opened other avenues to bad association. Some commercial firms enable subscribers using a computer and a telephone to send a message to electronic bulletin boards; a person can thus post on the bulletin board a message that is open to all subscribers. This has led to so-called electronic debates on religious matters. A Christian might be drawn into such debates and may spend many hours with an apostate thinker who may have been disfellowshipped from the congregation. "
(The Watchtower 1993 August 1, p. 17)

Seems like they are afraid you might find out a new idea or two (although I don't necessary agree with any ideas being put to you here!)

o1s1n

kjw47 wrote: »

Because when the blank hits the fan and the whole world is raising up against Gods people during the tribulation and some advice comes down from the top that just doesnt seem to fit rational thinking, is one going to question that point or act upon it in faith that God is directing them?.

So you're basically going to follow whatever the organization says, even if it doesn't fit rational thinking?

Have you heard of Waco, The Heavens Gate Cult and Jonestown?

kjw47 wrote: »

Also that generation is 98 now-there are still some alive-.

There are literally a handful alive. So few that a change in thinking was required under the guise of 'new light'.

kjw47 wrote: »

-Jesus is coming like a thief in the night and the doing away with babylon the great is like a swift pitch into the sea with a millstone around her neck-- We all shall see.

It's a shame you guys aren't allowed to bet, as I'd happily put down a large wager that the above is not the case

If I'd been alive at some other choice times in the last centuary, I'd have won big money from many JWs who prophasised the same thing then.

kjw47 wrote: »

Are you an apostate?

You do realize that there isn't actually a group of evil people lurking in dark corners of the internet with 'apostate' tattooed across their head, taking directions from Satan in the best ways to turn JWs to the dark side?

It's simply a way for the Organization to scare you away from talking to people who may have (justified) negative things to say.

Most of these people are irked and annoyed with your religion because they have had bad exerpences. Some of which seriously messed them up.

What you're doing is literally sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending these things haven't happened.

kjw47

o1s1n wrote: »

So you're basically going to follow whatever the organization says, even if it doesn't fit rational thinking?

Have you heard of Waco, The Heavens Gate Cult and Jonestown?



There are literally a handful alive. So few that a change in thinking was required under the guise of 'new light'.



It's a shame you guys aren't allowed to bet, as I'd happily put down a large wager that the above is not the case

If I'd been alive at some other choice times in the last centuary, I'd have won big money from many JWs who prophasised the same thing then.



You do realize that there isn't actually a group of evil people lurking in dark corners of the internet with 'apostate' tattooed across their head, taking directions from Satan in the best ways to turn JWs to the dark side?

It's simply a way for the Organization to scare you away from talking to people who may have (justified) negative things to say.

Most of these people are irked and annoyed with your religion because they have had bad exerpences. Some of which seriously messed them up.

What you're doing is literally sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending these things haven't happened.

Waco,heavens gate, jonestown is no comparison to 7,500,000 strong with 18,000,000 plus attending the memorial.
They are infact tatooed across their heads persay--And why wouldnt they expect bad expieriences to follow them when satan is at war with them for trying to learn and share truth--nothing compared to seeing an apostle sell out the son of God to the enemy-yet they stood by Gods truth and teachers.Or being thrown to the lions as a public spectacle-- so they werent there for the right reasons to start with--they have been seperated with the goats.
Time will tell us all what is what--but one thing is for certain that will be known as Ezekial brought out many times--- They will have to know i am Jehovah.

kjw47

ISAW wrote: »

dont know what you mean. How are you or your admittedly false prophets judges of what an apostate is?


What do you mean by that?
1. They didn't repent- i.e. you believe they talked to the dead or said they did
or
2. The did repent - i.e. the leaders of the WT erred and used "dark" methods of Satran?
or
3. they never talked to the dead and never stated that they did

You can include angels and supernatural beings with "dead" above


You can use "communicated with" instead of "talked to" if you wish.

Did the WT leaders communicate with spirits with the dead or with angels?
did they subsequently say this was a "dark" practice supported by Satan?

Did they also use occult practices like astrology and pyramidology or the winged Sun?
I have shown you their own writings on it.
Do you deny these writings exist?



God can do all sorts of things. Nothin ius impossible for God. water doesen't turn into wine Eithher does it? Nor can people walk on water. But Jesus apparently did both BEFORE he died! fleshy bodies can't do that either can they? But Jesus fleshy body apparently walked on water! So can fleshy bodies do that or not? And why would Jesus try to Con thomas who wanted to see the actual fleshy body?



In many Wicca and Witchcraft systems the Watchtowers are evocational symbols of spiritual beings known as the Watchers or the Grigori.
Wikipedia, “Watchtower (magic)” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchtower_magic

The Grigori are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim, who are described as giants in Genesis 6:4. Also known as "Watchers" (from Greek egrḗgoroi (ἐγρήγοροι)), the Grigori appear in the books of Enoch and Jubilees.
Wikipedia, “ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_angel
see under "Slavonic Enoch"
"Grigori" redirects here
The Greek term egrḗgoroi (ἐγρήγοροι)) or Grigori is transliterated into Slavonic in the Second Book of Enoch. In 2 Enoch 18 (Slavonic Enoch) the "Grigori" (egregoroi) are located in the fifth heaven, and from among them 200 princes fall


The inspired Scriptures tell us that sometime before the great Flood of Noah’s day, certain angels began to take an unusual interest in the women on earth. These unions were unnatural, and they produced hybrid offspring known as Nephilim…Ever since the wicked angels lost “their original position,” they have been the demon companions of Satan and have served his evil interests.
The Watchtower, March 15, 2007, pp. 26-7




How about man says : but it is easy for you to tell us how to live you are God you don't have to live like us.
God says: Tell you what just so i can convince you I will take on a human form and live life exactly like a human and not use any god powers to assist myself to overcome any disadvantage of being human ( although i might do the odd miracle to help others) and in that lesson I hope to teach you that ANY HUMAN can do exactly what I do. It is a simple way to show you how to recover from the Fall. No super powers or God powers are necessary.




If they make correction to "dark" teachings such as using the occult and they make false prophesies then how do you know they were inspired by God when the current leadership say they weren't but that they were using "dark" practices?




Prophecy=prediction that something is happening at a certain date.
False prophesy = It didn't happen when they predicted.

It didnt happen at least FIVE times. Then they CHANGED their Pyramid predictions in later books . did the size of the pyramid passage change? No! they just changed the numbers they used for length. Then when they were again wrong they said pyramids are against the Bible! You have the references above in JW books. go and read them!

Errors= False prophesy! Dark materials.

If they were wrong so many times and now say that their practices were wrong how do you know they are right now?




If you don't need to read are you taking your belief from the Bible or what The Watchtower or JW leaders tell you?

“We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.” —The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1968, p. 13

“Satan attempted to use his influence in a subtle way, and in this he was successful. How so? By insinuation and falsehood. He put forth error, under cover of a lie, as a substitute for truth. In other words, he put darkness for light.” —The Watchtower, May 15, 1976, p. 304

“If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. ‘New light’ never extinguished older ‘light,’ but adds to it.... So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another.” — Zion’s Watch Tower, February 1881, p. 3

If "new light" adds to old light how do you reconcile the "old light" = Dark practice of communicating with the dead, talking to angels, using the occult pyramidology and astrology?

Rev 3:12