RTE 2 Broadcasting in HD now

Gipo3

No its not.

Sponge Bob

there were 2 law n order programmes, the first was in HD

JDxtra

Just got the following response back from the Saorview team when I queried the permanent "HD" logo on screen...

Although only a proportion of the content available on RTÉ Two HD is true HD. The remainder of the schedule is transmitted in an ‘up-converted’ format which provides a significantly enhanced viewer experience to those with the necessary HD equipment.

The RTÉ Two HD logo is onscreen to sign-post to viewers that they are watching the ‘up-converted’ RTÉ Two channel rather than the SD channel.

Hmmmm.

Profondo Rosso

How can ya tell if you're watching up-scaled or true HD?

The Dark Knight

Maybe RTE should start a new standard....
"RTE2 hd" for upscaled content, and
"RTE2 HD" for Native HD content.

That way everybody wins, we get the info we need, and RTE/saorview get to promote their HD channel.

JDxtra

Or... "RTE Two - I can't believe it's not HD"

Stinicker

I was watching "Eden" on Sky last night and they remove the HD part of the logo when the programme is upscaled. RTE should do the same.

Trevord

If many people can't tell the difference between True HD and RTE's "budget HD", (and based on posts to this forum that would seem to be the case)
then does it really matter that much in terms of viewing experience whether it is real HD or upscaled ?

The point about it being a form of "false advertising" to call upscaled stuff actual HD still stands, but if joe bloggs can't tell the difference is it any more of a big deal than neing served a pepsi if you ask for a coke in the pub ?

Minstrel27

JDxtra wrote: »

Just got the following response back from the Saorview team when I queried the permanent "HD" logo on screen...



Hmmmm.

That is a terrible reply from RTÉ. HD should only be there for native HD programming. In a good world no channel would have a DOG.

Trevord wrote: »

If many people can't tell the difference between True HD and RTE's "budget HD", (and based on posts to this forum that would seem to be the case)

I have noticed this too. I want rid however because the RTÉ Two HD DOG is way too big and is a distraction.

Widescreen

Stinicker wrote: »

I was watching "Eden" on Sky last night and they remove the HD part of the logo when the programme is upscaled. RTE should do the same.

Of course they should you are spot on, same as Channel 4 and Channel 5 do as well. Its typical RTE, they do a lot of great work and then let themselves down again by very poor attention to detail!!

Minstrel27

Widescreen wrote: »

Its typical RTE, they do a lot of great work and then let themselves down again by very poor attention to detail!!

It is typical for the BBC also, which is a shame.

Gerry Wicklow

Minstrel27 wrote: »

It is typical for the BBC also, which is a shame.

At least BBC actually transmit HD (which they tweaked to 1920 for Wimbledon) RTÉ are using one of the lowest possible resolutions for SD and we know the score for HD:(
If they would even get rid of that damn wolfhound in the top right corner it would be a start.

mossym

Minstrel27 wrote: »

It is typical for the BBC also, which is a shame.

why. in fairness to the bbc, they said they would have a full hd channel, and they did(BBC HD). then then said they would have a hd version of BBC 1, but which would have unscaled content where necessary, which they did. they're not claiming the upscaled stuff is HD, they were honest about what it was. for the brief bit of HD we got on rte, it appeared the BBC HD is superior in quality as well, but tough to tell as we got so little to compare.

there may be gripes about BBC, but they don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush as RTE

Minstrel27

Seemingly the BBC cannot be criticised.

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

At least BBC actually transmit HD (which they tweaked to 1920 for Wimbledon) RTÉ are using one of the lowest possible resolutions for SD and we know the score for HD:(
If they would even get rid of that damn wolfhound in the top right corner it would be a start.

The BBC HD channels have been transmitting the exact same resolution as RTÉ Two HD until last week. I bet it will go back to it again after Wimbledon.

mossym wrote: »

there may be gripes about BBC, but they don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush as RTE

With regards to a BBC One HD DOG on screen at all times, why not? It is present regardless of a programme being HD or not.

mossym

Minstrel27 wrote: »

With regards to a BBC One HD DOG on screen at all times, why not? It is present regardless of a programme being HD or not.

you seriously think that's as big an issue as the total lack of hd programming at all?? i 'm amazed

as i said gripes with bbc are valid. and if RTE was actually broadcasting any hd at all we could start to compare their use of DOGs to the BBC and say yes they're both at fault

but with one station broadcasting 0 or practically zero in native HD, i'm not so concerned with what dog they put on it and more concerned with the actual content being shown. versus a good portion of programming in native hd. how can they be deemed equal

by your logic, if RTE turned off the HD dog then you'd be quite happy with it being called on a HD channel.

who cares what dog is on it if all we are getting is SD scaled material? i have perfectly good scalers at home, i don't need rte to do it for me.

i can see your point about the DOG, but it's so far down the list of prioritites to be using it to compare a valid HD channel and one in name only seems crazy

Pat Gleeson

Amazing the weird bizarro-world of RTE. However, I emailed Eurosport in 2006 regarding their exact same use of 'HD' in their DOG, and their insistance in using another logo (Native HD) in the bottom right corner when showing HD source material. Their reply was something to the effect that they were taking notice of the number of correspondance on the subject. Within a few months the second logo was removed -they still do the RTE-esque HD thing though

Minstrel27

mossym wrote: »

you seriously think that's as big an issue as the total lack of hd programming at all?? i 'm amazed

I was referencing the fact that the BBC do the samer as RTÉ for the DOG on HD channels. That's is what I made reference to. But for some reason this seems to have offended some people. I made no mention about the programming and lack of HD because it doesn't bother me.

mossym wrote: »

i can see your point about the DOG, but it's so far down the list of prioritites to be using it to compare a valid HD channel and one in name only seems crazy

For you it is far down the list but not for me. And I am not comparing RTÉ Two HD and BBC One HD :rolleyes: I am on about the DOG only.

Machinehead

From what I've seen, neither The RTÉ Guide, Aertel, or any of the national press use the title "RTÉ Two HD". The only place one can see the term is the onscreen DOG & of course on the Saorview website. In view of the fact that they don't carry any HD programming perhaps they haven't yet considered the title as a misnomer & as yet have to get the title right. Perhaps this will be sorted when everyone is back at their desks after the summer hols. With larger screens - 42" & above, most everyone should realise that they are not getting true HD, but less than that the difference might not be so obvious.
On another issue someone needs to get finger out & get this scheduling thing sorted. Yesterday RTÉ One Leaders Questions, at the same time TG4 & RTÉ News Now had the same thing going on. Last time I saw The Frontline we all had the pleasure of seeing Pat Kenny on RTÉ One & also on RTÉ NN, & of course again one hour later on +1. Left me wishing for RTÉ Select;)
The real beauty of HD can really be seen at it's best ATM, just a click from the lawn tennis at Wimbeldon on BBC HD to the green carpet field tennis on TG4 makes me feel that we've been spoiled by satellite HD, which I'm afraid that DTT could never match. But hey it's a damn sight better than the ailing & almost dead VHF system we've all been used to.

The Dark Knight

Machinehead wrote: »

.... just a click from the lawn tennis at Wimbeldon on BBC HD to the green carpet field tennis on TG4 makes me feel that we've been spoiled by satellite HD, which I'm afraid that DTT could never match.

That's not true. From the two Native HD events we've had so far.....RTE2 HD is just as good as BBC HD!

We just need more of it!!
I just wish RTE would communicate with us on the reason we are not getting at least more sporting events in native hd. The only plausible reason is that they are waiting for Mux2 to be fully tested and operational.

mossym

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I was referencing the fact that the BBC do the samer as RTÉ for the DOG on HD channels. That's is what I made reference to. But for some reason this seems to have offended some people. I made no mention about the programming and lack of HD because it doesn't bother me.




For you it is far down the list but not for me. And I am not comparing RTÉ Two HD and BBC One HD :rolleyes: I am on about the DOG only.

okay, i see your point, just to point out it's not the bbc channels, bbc hd is hd full time isn't it? it's only bbc1 hd that shows upscaled.

and i'm still a little surprised at concern over the DOG. if you can't tell from the picture if you are watching HD, then what does it matter?i'd rather have no dog, i don't need something to tell me it's hd or not.are you saying if they removed the HD from the DOG then you'd be happy with the service?

my major gripe is transmitting sd material in an upscaled mode, which is only

• using bandwidth on a mux,
• forcing non hd compatiable solutions out of the market(when Saorview certification is an absolute joke and means nothing)
• forces anyone with a pvr to use up extra space to record something at no benefit)

if we were getting even a fraction of HD programming i'd take those costs, but at the moment it's a joke. we;d be better with a high bitrate SD channel with the extra space allocated to the other channels

mossym

The Dark Knight wrote: »

That's not true. From the two Native HD events we've had so far.....RTE2 HD is just as good as BBC HD!

no, it wasn't(not on my setup at least). picture was softer, it was more like itv hd which is not on par with BBC. BBC on the other hand used be really good, then they changed things and now it not up to the same level, but it was still far better than rte on my setup

The Dark Knight

mossym wrote: »

no, it wasn't(not on my setup at least). picture was softer, it was more like itv hd which is not on par with BBC. BBC on the other hand used be really good, then they changed things and now it not up to the same level, but it was still far better than rte on my setup

Things can get very subjective, but personally I cannot see any difference on 2 of my 3 setups. The only setup I have where the RTE2HD picture was noticeably worse is the Playstation Play TV. Both Sony and Panasonic TV's were comparable.

mossym

The Dark Knight wrote: »

Things can get very subjective, but personally I cannot see any difference on 2 of my 3 setups. The only setup I have where the RTE2HD picture was noticeably worse is the Playstation Play TV. Both Sony and Panasonic TV's were comparable.

agreed on the subjectivity point so without trying to cause an arguement why post something like

The Dark Knight wrote: »

That's not true. From the two Native HD events we've had so far.....RTE2 HD is just as good as BBC HD

that's not a subjective statement

on a 110" screen fed from a 1080p D-ILA projector with REON processing in both cases, the rugby we had on rte (and the hurling)was noticably softer than bbc hd on the same setup, and on par with itv hd to my eye. (maybe a bit sharper than itv, but would need more material to test properly


that's my opinion on my setup, and i won't question you can't see a difference on yours
of course ideally would need the same material on both channels to tell correctly,

watty

mossym wrote: »

my major gripe is transmitting sd material in an upscaled mode, which is only

• using bandwidth on a mux,
• forcing non hd compatiable solutions out of the market(when Saorview certification is an absolute joke and means nothing)
• forces anyone with a pvr to use up extra space to record something at no benefit)

The bandwidth is needed anyway for the few occasions there is HD.

There will be more and more HD content. Even TV3 as well as RTE1 and TG4 will go HD. Simulcast of HD and SD is even more wasteful, adds about 50% to costs. Almost all MPEG4 SD only kit is "dumped product", junk or obsolete. A downscaled HD picture on SCART is better than 544 x 576 SD. The RTE upscaled SD on HD is superior to almost everyone built in domestic upscale.

Given the perfidity of manufacturers, Wholesalers and Retailers the only viable solution was to create a single certification scheme with open standards (Nordig rather than secret D-Book) and independent test house. Have people looked at the approved list lately?

On the PVR you are actually getting about 30% to 50% more "quality" than an SD transmission. HD will in the future be the norm. So you want to lock us into wasteful Simulcast like UK?

mossym

watty wrote: »

The bandwidth is needed anyway for the few occasions there is HD.

that was selective quoting of my post watty. i did say i'd have no problem with these if we were getting hd material. no bandwidth issues if it is being used, even a % of the time

watty wrote: »

Given the perfidity of manufacturers, Wholesalers and Retailers the only viable solution was to create a single certification scheme with open standards (Nordig rather than secret D-Book) and independent test house. Have people looked at the approved list lately?

indeed i have, and at the lab at work we bought a Saorview certified TV. officially saorview certified according to Sony and the saorview site, and guess what? With the country code set to ireland, you only get programme info for now and next programming only ( you get the titles, just not the info about the program). set the country to france, and you get information for the whole 7 days. so the officially certified tv only gets all the information when you set it to a country other than the country it is certified in. In my eyes, that makes the saorview certification a joke
i agree with the idea of certifcation, but the implementation???

watty wrote: »

On the PVR you are actually getting about 30% to 50% more "quality" than an SD transmission. HD will in the future be the norm. So you want to lock us into wasteful Simulcast like UK?

not at all, i want them to show hd material. that is the main aim. if they're not showing hd, then it's not a simulcast in the first place

30 to 50% more quality? i don't want artifical quality created by rte's choice of scalar, i want quality given by native unprocessed(in terms of scaling) hd. any quality gained by scaling is only as good as the scaling algorthm used, the guesses it makes. and they all make mistakes.

i don't want an sd channel, i want a HD channel that shows some HD(doesn't even have to be all.) If they did that, then i could live with my gripes, in fact most of them go away. it's probably impatience, the HD may come, but if RTE are going to preach to the people about their HD channel, it would be nice if it had some HD. otherwise they're playing on the misunderstanding of the general public as to what they are getting

watty

The upscaler is likely got a high bitrate 720x576 input that is not compressed.

The SD channels are MPEG4 compressed and only 544x576. The extra quality on the RTE HD upscale is thus not artificial.

I was writing about quality (+30% to 50%) not resolution (+400% approx)

There will be more and more HD with time.

maggy_thatcher

Minstrel27 wrote: »

With regards to a BBC One HD DOG on screen at all times, why not? It is present regardless of a programme being HD or not.

At least the BBC One HD DOG is very faint and not in your face like the RTÉ2HD one.

I hate those stupid things anyway (the DOGs) -- they provide zero value-add to the end-user, and seem to be there purely as a form of self-advertising ("look at us, aren't we great and giving you a TV channel, don't forget who we are!")

If we absolutely must have them, the best one IMHO is the one from Sky Atlantic -- it actually disappears completely often, and when it is there at all it's just a slight colouring of the corner. BBCHD/BBC1HD are a close second.

mossym

watty wrote: »

The upscaler is likely got a high bitrate 720x576 input that is not compressed.

The SD channels are MPEG4 compressed and only 544x576. The extra quality on the RTE HD upscale is thus not artificial.

would broadcasting a 720*576 signal then not given the same increase in quality, and less bandwidth required? and given many of the programs they are doing this upscaling for are available in native HD anyway(due to the disproportionate amount of popcorn tv RTE as a PBS show), it's a wasted effort

my arguments are seeded in what i perceive as a half assed effort by rte who appear to me at least to be playing on the fact that the majority of their viewers know no better. JDxtras post above would seem to back me up. I'm most likely over reacting (nothing new for me) but this is just the latest in a long line of annoyances i've had with RTE as a whole

The Dark Knight

mossym wrote: »

agreed on the subjectivity point so without trying to cause an arguement why post something like


that's not a subjective statement

on a 110" screen fed from a 1080p D-ILA projector with REON processing in both cases, the rugby we had on rte (and the hurling)was noticably softer than bbc hd on the same setup, and on par with itv hd to my eye. (maybe a bit sharper than itv, but would need more material to test properly


that's my opinion on my setup, and i won't question you can't see a difference on yours
of course ideally would need the same material on both channels to tell correctly,

Apologies, I should have put "in my opinion" in front of my statement. But I'd be willing to bet most people (without your 9 foot screen and projector.....which isn't quite the norm yet) wouldn't see much if any difference.
But hey, we're not going to start an argument

STB

mossym wrote: »

on a 110" screen fed from a 1080p D-ILA projector with REON processing in both cases, the rugby we had on rte (and the hurling)was noticably softer than bbc hd on the same setup, and on par with itv hd to my eye. (maybe a bit sharper than itv, but would need more material to test properly


that's my opinion on my setup, and i won't question you can't see a difference on yours
of course ideally would need the same material on both channels to tell correctly,

Jaysus they havent even got one of those in the NMC in RTENL to compliment their Zandor Predator!