Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

Clearlier

macinalli wrote: »

Am also in a similar boat to you! My pace is based on 2 x 10 mile races (both around 70 mins) and have run 2 x 20 miles LSR and 1 x 21. Have decided that I'm going to aim for around 7.40 pace and will see how the race plays out. I'll be doing Liverpool next Sunday so will let you know how it goes.

Itsalltrue - I wouldn't go for the 7.30 mile pace to see how far it goes. Lots of people on here say that you can't bank time in a marathon, and if it does go wrong you'll lose much more time than you've gained. Do you need to run with the DCM pacer? If you think you can get 3.20, why not go at that pace from the start?

Good luck in Liverpool Macinalli. I just had a look at the course and aside from a mile or so just after halfway it looks like a fairly flat race. Hope you enjoy and achieve your target.

greenplain

Hi,

I am looking for some opinions/advice on my goal for the Dublin marathon

Here is some background :

This will be my third marathon.
I ran Cork this year in 3.35.
I want to run sub 3.30 for Dublin.
I think I can get close to sub 3.20 and that's where I need some advice :

I did the 3/4 Athlone race on Sunday in 2.30 and although I was tired, I had more in the legs to keep going.

Apart from the 3/4 marathon, I have ran two other 20 milers both in the time of 2.43. I know i am doing my LSR too fast. I am going to do one more LSR, a 21 miler and I will slow my pace right down for it.

During the course of this cycle of training I have done a couple of 40 mpw and now for the last two weeks i have done 52 mpw. I am on a step back week this week. The week after this I plan to have one more week of 50 mpw and then taper 16 days.

I have not done any format interval training or tempo training. For example some days I will go out and run 8 miles at 6.59 pace and the following day I will do it at 7.10 - 7.18 pace. I also have a few 10k training runs done at 6.40 pace but that was weeks ago.

So with the above info do you think I could achieve sub 3.20 ?.if not is there anything I could do in the short amount of time to get there ?

macinalli

Clearlier wrote: »

Good luck in Liverpool Macinalli. I just had a look at the course and aside from a mile or so just after halfway it looks like a fairly flat race. Hope you enjoy and achieve your target.

Cheers for that! The hill at half way is actually when we come out of the Mersey tunnel - should be an interesting experience!

Clearlier

Hi Greenplain,

Have you done any races all out recently? How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? How do you structure your training weeks? Did you taper for Athlone at all? If you were to manage an untapered 3/4 marathon at marathon pace on a tougher course (assuming what I've heard is true) then I'd imagine that you wouldn't be too far away. The caveats I have are about your endurance and the possibility that you underestimate the effort that Athlone required (very easily done).

greenplain

Hi Clear,

Thanks for getting back to me -

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Have you done any races all out recently? [/FONT] - No I have not. I did the Clontarf half, in July and did it in 1.33. But it was real warm that day. I know i could go close to sub 1.30.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? [/FONT] - It better. I did not hit any 50 mile weeks and only had to 20 milers done. I was dogged with a groin injury for six weeks. All better now.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? [/FONT] - I did get real tired at mile 23 but fine up until that. I feel i am fitter now, plus i am ready to hurt and keep going
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
How do you structure your training weeks? [/FONT] - loosely following HH advanced 1 program only on a mileage basis though

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Did you taper for Athlone at all? - No. the week of the race i had ran 32 miles 8 monday-thursday
[/FONT]


I was out yesterday and did a handy 8 miles

Tonight will run 10

Clearlier

greenplain wrote: »

Hi Clear,

Thanks for getting back to me -

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Have you done any races all out recently? [/FONT] - No I have not. I did the Clontarf half, in July and did it in 1.33. But it was real warm that day. I know i could go close to sub 1.30.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How does your training compare to what you did for Cork? [/FONT] - It better. I did not hit any 50 mile weeks and only had to 20 milers done. I was dogged with a groin injury for six weeks. All better now.

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]How did you split at Cork i.e. fairly even halves, steady to 20 and then a gentle fade, crashed and burned at 23 etc.? [/FONT] - I did get real tired at mile 23 but fine up until that. I feel i am fitter now, plus i am ready to hurt and keep going
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
How do you structure your training weeks? [/FONT] - loosely following HH advanced 1 program only on a mileage basis though

[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Did you taper for Athlone at all? - No. the week of the race i had ran 32 miles 8 monday-thursday
[/FONT]


I was out yesterday and did a handy 8 miles

Tonight will run 10

I find myself wanting to get more and more details about your training. That isn't practical but it does tell me that you've got to be pretty close because I can't quite make my mind up. It sounds like you've been doing a fair bit of running in and around marathon pace which means that you should be fairly comfortable at that pace. Make sure that the first half is an armchair ride. You don't push it, you just let the pace come to you, concentrate on maintaining through 20 and especially onto the Merrion Rd.. I think that you can do 3:20 but if turns out really hot or you're just not feeling well back off a little and make sure you get yourself a PB. It's amazing how much time you can lose in a marathon if you don't pace it well. Anything in the low 3:20's would be a significant improvement in a short space of time from Cork.

Good luck!

PS: the main think that I would change about the HH plan would be to get in a longer midweek run to boost your endurance. The fact that it has you running 6 days a week is good though and the plan has 30 miles on a couple of weekends which will help. If you have been more or less sticking to the plan so far I'd stay with it now.

greenplain

Thanks for the input Clearier. Honestly I would be very happy with a low 3.20 finish. As you said i'll see how i am feeling at the half way mark and take it from there

Van.Bosch

dernipper wrote: »

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Didnt do it in the end - did a 12 mile run as per the plan. training has been hit this week by working late so will have to do 5 days in a row with a 21/22 Miler on Saturday being the last big run of the program. Hoping to take that nice and handy and finish it knowing that just a few more is all that will be needed in 3 weeks.

how is your training coming along?

dernipper

Overall good I think, have had my injuries and not at where I hoped I would be at the start of the year but pretty much where I should be after a late summer re plan due to those injuries, if that makes sense !!

I would have liked another LSR this w/e but I know I have enough done to date (18, 22, 22, 20) so should be ok, hoping for sub 3:30 but my gut instinct is that I am looking at a sub 3:34,,, will see, in many ways I will be happy to be on the starting line as it looked bleak at times and I want to enjoy it, I know I have done all I could do to be as best prepared as possible, if that proves good enough great if not there is always another one although I will be giving it all I have on the day !!

How about yourself ?

Van.Bosch wrote: »

dernipper wrote: »

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Didnt do it in the end - did a 12 mile run as per the plan. training has been hit this week by working late so will have to do 5 days in a row with a 21/22 Miler on Saturday being the last big run of the program. Hoping to take that nice and handy and finish it knowing that just a few more is all that will be needed in 3 weeks.

how is your training coming along?

bjk210

Greenplain,

Based on your post a few days ago I think I was running along side you for most of the Athlone race last Sunday.

I think you are very likely to break 3.20 in Dublin. I think the only thing that you can do at this stage to make it more likely is do something to boost your confidence that you can do it and hence make you go out at a pace you need for 3.20.

Here are two suggestions.

1. Do a 10km race next weekend (as recommended by P/D).

2. Do a Yasso 800 workout - run 10 x 1/2 a mile in 3.15-3.20 with 1/4 mile in between.

Hope to see you at the starting line in Dublin.

greenplain wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some opinions/advice on my goal for the Dublin marathon

Here is some background :

This will be my third marathon.
I ran Cork this year in 3.35.
I want to run sub 3.30 for Dublin.
I think I can get close to sub 3.20 and that's where I need some advice :

I did the 3/4 Athlone race on Sunday in 2.30 and although I was tired, I had more in the legs to keep going.

Apart from the 3/4 marathon, I have ran two other 20 milers both in the time of 2.43. I know i am doing my LSR too fast. I am going to do one more LSR, a 21 miler and I will slow my pace right down for it.

During the course of this cycle of training I have done a couple of 40 mpw and now for the last two weeks i have done 52 mpw. I am on a step back week this week. The week after this I plan to have one more week of 50 mpw and then taper 16 days.

I have not done any format interval training or tempo training. For example some days I will go out and run 8 miles at 6.59 pace and the following day I will do it at 7.10 - 7.18 pace. I also have a few 10k training runs done at 6.40 pace but that was weeks ago.

So with the above info do you think I could achieve sub 3.20 ?.if not is there anything I could do in the short amount of time to get there ?

sideswipe

Interested to hear the views of others re the P&D 55 mile program. I'm following this in the lead up to New York so am a week behind those training for Dublin.

What do people think of PMP miles during the last 20 miler? It doesn't mention this in the plan but I was thinking of doing some either during this weeks LSR (17 miles) or during the last 20 miler the following week, but I'm not sure which would be more beneficial.
Was thinking of throwing 12 PMP miles into this weekends 17 miler leaving the 20 as a true LSR with no PMP.

Any thoughts or experience with this?

Cheers.

Clearlier

Hi sideswipe,

The plan calls for a tune-up race the day before the 17. If you're doing that then don't do 12 @ mp the day after. In fact, it should be one of the runs that could be called long slow run rather than long steady run.

The week after would be a better time for doing it but if you look at the overall plan you'll notice that none of the 20 mile runs have parts scheduled @ MP. I think that the reasoning behind that is that it puts too much load on a single run in a week. The 18 w14 @MP is slightly risky in that regard. If you really want to do some more marathon pace running in a long run I think that 10 would be enough. A better alternative might be to do most of the Friday 11 mile run @ marathon pace if you have recovered well from the VO2 max session on the Wednesday.

Or..... you could just trust the schedule :-)

Mr Slow

Clearlier wrote: »

Or..... you could just trust the schedule :-)

^ This - Totally!

Trust in P&D!

sideswipe

Clearlier wrote: »

Hi sideswipe,

The plan calls for a tune-up race the day before the 17. If you're doing that then don't do 12 @ mp the day after. In fact, it should be one of the runs that could be called long slow run rather than long steady run.

The week after would be a better time for doing it but if you look at the overall plan you'll notice that none of the 20 mile runs have parts scheduled @ MP. I think that the reasoning behind that is that it puts too much load on a single run in a week. The 18 w14 @MP is slightly risky in that regard. If you really want to do some more marathon pace running in a long run I think that 10 would be enough. A better alternative might be to do most of the Friday 11 mile run @ marathon pace if you have recovered well from the VO2 max session on the Wednesday.

Or..... you could just trust the schedule :-)

Thanks for that, I'm not doing a tune up race so was thinking of doing a GA run of about 10 miles tomorrow and doing a few PMP miles into the 17 miler instead of the tune up race if that makes any sense. I suppose I was looking to give myself a confidence boost by knocking out a dozen or so PMP miles, decisions, decisions

RayCun

You could do a 10k time trial instead of a race, and the normal long run the next day.

Clearlier

RayCun wrote: »

You could do a 10k time trial instead of a race, and the normal long run the next day.

Ray's option would be my preferred one. The races in the P&D schedule are part of the peaking process. They also help with your lactate threshold. If you're somebody who sharpens up really quickly then you may be better off without it (although I'd do my utmost to get the one about two weeks before in). If like most of us it takes you a little while to reach a peak then I'd do the time trial or at the very least a sharp tempo run where you're controlled but pushing the envelope of what's possible for you.

sideswipe

RayCun wrote: »

You could do a 10k time trial instead of a race, and the normal long run the next day.

Not something I'd considered at all. Think I'll go with that, cheers Ray.

Clearlier, I'm really not too sure if I sharpen up quickly or slowly (or at all!!) This is my forth marathon and first time really trying to stick to a structured plan. I'm looking for a sub 3:30 (pb 3:36 from cork this year) but looking to enjoy the race and avoid blowing up on the streets of New York.

Thanks again.

neilc

RayCun wrote: »

You could do a 10k time trial instead of a race, and the normal long run the next day.

sideswipe wrote: »

Not something I'd considered at all. Think I'll go with that, cheers Ray.

Clearlier, I'm really not too sure if I sharpen up quickly or slowly (or at all!!) This is my forth marathon and first time really trying to stick to a structured plan. I'm looking for a sub 3:30 (pb 3:36 from cork this year) but looking to enjoy the race and avoid blowing up on the streets of New York.

Thanks again.

This is what I did for my first tune-up race before Berlin this year. There was no handy 10k's close by. I raced against myself on a local 10k loop and actually got an unofficial pb on the day. If you have a garmin you can set it up with a virtual opponent and race it either. It was a tough weekend with the LSR the next day but as the lads said earlier, trust P&D.

sideswipe

Anybody got any thoughts or experience with sports massage's before marathon?

Never had one before so was wondering how long before the race is best.

RayCun

We were talking about this about a week ago upthread.
I got one last year a couple of weeks before the marathon. I thought it was good, but I'd make sure you had at least a week to get back to normal afterwards.

NeedsTraining

sideswipe wrote: »

Anybody got any thoughts or experience with sports massage's before marathon?

Never had one before so was wondering how long before the race is best.

If you are not used to them, then I wouldn't recommend one at this stage.
However, if you want one, I would go this week and see how the body reacts.

I will head for 3 between now and marathon day.

Hope all goes well between now and race day.

Clearlier

Do book a massage in for the day after the race if you can. It won't have any impact on your performance but it can help you recover afterwards.

dernipper

Interesting to read some of the comments on this, I think a key factor is the intensity of the massage, if you are getting one just make sure to tell the physio or whomever what your planned training schedule is and how hard or otherwise

I go for one every couple months depending on training schedule and feel they are a huge benefit if a bit pricey. These are 'deep tissue' sports massage, can be sore during and afterwards and takes the body a couple days to recover,,,, not to be scheduled a week before the race

However just before races such as the marathon, I always get a pre event sports massage a couple of days before an event, but these are not as intense.Last year it was the Sat morning before the marathon on the Monday.

As I said have a chat with a physio, be clear what you are looking for and your trainig / race plan and they would be best to advise anfd just remember that It is important to give the body a day or 2 rest afterwards and drink loads of water,,,,,

sideswipe wrote: »

Anybody got any thoughts or experience with sports massage's before marathon?

Never had one before so was wondering how long before the race is best.

MJ31

I'm new to boards and this Thread, was hoping for some advice with my training for the marathon. My training was going well up until the half marathon, I have completed the following long runs 2*19.5m, 1*18m, 2*17m, 2*16m. I was averaging between 40m and 50m a week.

My furthest long run since the half was 15m the weekend after. I wasn't able to complete my long run last Sunday as I was a bit unwell and had to stop after 6 mile. Took it easy this week and went out today and did only 10m at a bit slower pace than normal.

I don't have a physical injury, think I might be coming to the tail end of a virus, just lacking my normal energy levels.

I have a good bit of running done and have done three half marathons this year. I did two marathons last year. The last couple of weeks have knocked my confidence a bit.

Just wondering what I should do next week. Should I aim for a twenty miler to get my confidence back or is that a bit near the marathon for that distance.

Thanks in advance if you have any advice for a "Doubting Thomas" for the small run at the end of the month!

Mr Slow

Others will be better placed to advise on your training but you sound overtrained to me, taper may have come at the right time.

Nodnedlog

Just did 22 miles today and it's taper time, anybody got suggestions for the length of my next two lsrs? Also was up to about 50 miles a week and what should I reduce this by? I have read different % being suggested??

Clearlier

MJ31 wrote: »

I'm new to boards and this Thread, was hoping for some advice with my training for the marathon. My training was going well up until the half marathon, I have completed the following long runs 2*19.5m, 1*18m, 2*17m, 2*16m. I was averaging between 40m and 50m a week.

My furthest long run since the half was 15m the weekend after. I wasn't able to complete my long run last Sunday as I was a bit unwell and had to stop after 6 mile. Took it easy this week and went out today and did only 10m at a bit slower pace than normal.

I don't have a physical injury, think I might be coming to the tail end of a virus, just lacking my normal energy levels.

I have a good bit of running done and have done three half marathons this year. I did two marathons last year. The last couple of weeks have knocked my confidence a bit.

Just wondering what I should do next week. Should I aim for a twenty miler to get my confidence back or is that a bit near the marathon for that distance.

Thanks in advance if you have any advice for a "Doubting Thomas" for the small run at the end of the month!

Hi MJ,

Priority no.1 is to get yourself to the start line. Focus on getting yourself healthy first and on your training second. The key thing for you for the next couple of weeks is not to push too hard and finish every run with plenty left in the tank.

You've run 2 marathons last year so you know that there's nothing mystical about the distance. A 20 miler next week is going to make little difference to your fitness unless you have the tail end of a virus and it hasn't cleared by then in which case it will wipe you out.

It sounds like you instinctively know the right thing to do so I'd keep up the frequency of your running but hold back on the intensity and the distance. If you have fully recovered by next week take your favourite run/session and run that at your usual pace and distance but don't take a chance if you're not sure that you've recovered. If you had a time goal you should adjust it slightly.

Good luck!

Clearlier

Nodnedlog wrote: »

Just did 22 miles today and it's taper time, anybody got suggestions for the length of my next two lsrs? Also was up to about 50 miles a week and what should I reduce this by? I have read different % being suggested??

If you were following a specific plan stick to that. If you've tapered effectively before copy that. If you haven't then what went wrong? Have you found 50 mpw tough or relatively straightforward?

Pfitzinger and Daniels suggest a 3 week taper with reductions of 20%, 40% and 60% (for the 6 days before the marathon) from peak mileage. Some prefer to take it easier, some like to reduce the taper to 2 weeks and aggressively taper on the week of the marathon. The art is in finding out what works for you. As a rule of thumb, low mileage runners who are recovered for almost every run will benefit from a shorter more intense taper, higher mileage runners who don't fully recover from one run to the next will benefit more from a longer taper. These are gross generalisations but might help you a little.

Good luck!

macinalli

itsalltrue wrote: »

Looking for some more advice.
I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.
Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.
I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20
I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.
Or
Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.
Any advice?

Mr Slow wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to yourself, actually there's seconds between us and I've asked the same questions, I was advised to run a long paced run to see how it feels which I did, 20 with 14 @ 7:43 and it was tough, I'm going to follow the 3:30 pacers until 15 miles and try and pull away at that point, every 10 secs gained is 10 secs off 3:30.

Also McMillan is too optimistic for the marathon especially in the first few marathon training rotations.

Just back from the Liverpool marathon and was thinking of this one. My times this year have improved a lot and McMillan said that I should be ok for a 3.20 marathon. I wasn't too sure and would have been happy to break 3.30. On the day I decided to go off at 7.40 place but to be very careful for the first 10 miles and not to push too hard too early. Did this for the first 3 miles but then met some rolling hills (nothing much) followed by an exposed windy stretch. At that stage I deliberately dropped the pace to around 8 min miles and went through 10 miles in around 79.20. I had hoped to keep this going for the 2nd 10 miles but it wasn't to be (2 tough hills), did that split in 83. I dug in well after the hills but by mile 22 I was wrecked and started losing time, finished in 3.38.

I think Mr Slows point about McMillan being optimistic for improvers is spot on. I have run marathons before (5) and do have an endurance base. My thinking though is that this endurance base doesn't really match with the pace I'm running at now. In the case of itsalltrue and Mr Slow, I would be wary of basing a marathon pace on a half marathon time that has improved a lot in the last year. Obviously every case is different, but in hindsight I think I would have been better going for 3.30 straight from the start.

Mr Slow

macinalli wrote: »

Just back from the Liverpool marathon and was thinking of this one. My times this year have improved a lot and McMillan said that I should be ok for a 3.20 marathon. I wasn't too sure and would have been happy to break 3.30. On the day I decided to go off at 7.40 place but to be very careful for the first 10 miles and not to push too hard too early. Did this for the first 3 miles but then met some rolling hills (nothing much) followed by an exposed windy stretch. At that stage I deliberately dropped the pace to around 8 min miles and went through 10 miles in around 79.20. I had hoped to keep this going for the 2nd 10 miles but it wasn't to be (2 tough hills), did that split in 83. I dug in well after the hills but by mile 22 I was wrecked and started losing time, finished in 3.38.

I think Mr Slows point about McMillan being optimistic for improvers is spot on. I have run marathons before (5) and do have an endurance base. My thinking though is that this endurance base doesn't really match with the pace I'm running at now. In the case of itsalltrue and Mr Slow, I would be wary of basing a marathon pace on a half marathon time that has improved a lot in the last year. Obviously every case is different, but in hindsight I think I would have been better going for 3.30 straight from the start.

Thanks a million for reporting back, sorry it didn't go well for you but you've helped me greatly if that's of any comfort.