Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

Clearlier

Hi Wilmaa,

Given that you're not a masochist you've probably made the best decision. I suspect that you probably could get around Dublin using a run/walk strategy (although I'm not certain) however it would hurt an awful lot and very possibly leave you injured.

wilmaa

thanks for that, sense prevails, will target Connemara, at least the half, instead. Good luck yourselves, W.

Jimh

Did the half on Saturday - Went with the two hour pacers but felt I could comfotably go a bit quicker so went on ahead - was going great till 9.5 miles when something seemed to pop in the back of my knee as I went over one of the speed ramps - the pain eased a bit so I carried on with a bit of a limp and came in at 1:57:33 but I could not have gone much further and the walk back to the car seemed to take forever. Doctor in First Aid room gave me a Chemical Ice pack and told me to take a week off from running - It stiffened up on the Saturday but is a lot easier now but I can still feel it a bit - going to give it a try tomorrow for a few miles as I need to get some miles in - I want a 20 miler on Saturday before the Athlone 3/4 the week after as i have not gone past 15 miles yet. I ordered a knee support from Wiggle today and will see if that helps

Clearlier

Sorry to hear about your knee Jim, just remember to do what you can do not what you want to do or what the schedule says you should do. You're better off on the line undertrained than perfectly trained but watching from the sidelines. Fingers crossed your knee gets better quickly.

Jimh

Tried running Tuesday but gave it up after a 100 yards - Not a lot of pain but could feel every step and I could feel myself starting to go lame - I still have a bit of stiffness in the knee. If I can't get the Athlone 3/4 in on 3rd of October then I think that's it and I will have to miss out as I have only 1 x 15 miler in and 3 or 4 x 1/2 Marathons - Pace wise I am going much better this year but the long runs have been a bit of a disaster since the Longford half. The main thing keeping me going is that I am too tight to lose the €99 I forked out to enter the two races

Van.Bosch

Hi, my LSR this week is 20 and I will be doing another two weeks after which is the Hal higdon inter 1 plan. Would doing the Athlone 3/4 in between be overkill?

My LSr will have been 15/17/18/20/20 So I'm wondering if that's enough. I'm going for 3:50 and did 1:43 in the half.
Thanks

NeedsTraining

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.
Anyway, have trained hard all year will lots of ups and downs. Plenty of pb's in tris and road and was looking forward to the same in DCM but now I don't know.
If it was you, would you 1. Take a 3 week break and then start training for next season or 2. Continue on the DCM train?

All advise welcome

earlyevening

What would I do?

2. Continue but maybe expect 3:10 or something. Then again, you just never know...

I'd never want to wait around another six months or something to do another marathon. PBs are nice, but you dont need to get one every time.

ger664

You should question it and other aspects of your daily routine.

I was in the same boat after last weeks half in Charlieville, exact same thing happened. I could not hold a pace I had done a marathon at 2 months prior.

I have since reviewed my recent logs and found that over the last six weeks my training had shown the danger signs of overtraining but I did not see them, which lead to my under performance.

Overtrainig is not just training too hard but other aspects of your life will contribute to it as well such as stress, lack of sleep, not hydrating properly, not getting time to relax.

Have a look at your daily routine and get it back on track.

Krusty_Clown

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.
Anyway, have trained hard all year will lots of ups and downs. Plenty of pb's in tris and road and was looking forward to the same in DCM but now I don't know.
If it was you, would you 1. Take a 3 week break and then start training for next season or 2. Continue on the DCM train?

All advise welcome

Well done in the HIM.

You haven't mentioned anything about what marathon-specific training your have done. Why don't you give us an outline?

If your training has been going well and you have successfully managed your long runs and PMP sessions, then there's no reason not to stick to the plan. Chalk it down to a bad run.

If your focus had been 100% on training for the HIM, then you may lack the specificity for a faster solo half marathon or marathon. You might have the endurance and overall conditioning, but not the run-specific leg speed. Maybe all your focus for the remaining 5 weeks should be on building the combination of speed and endurance e.g. tempo runs and long sequences of pmp intervals (e.g. Daniels).

Gringo78

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Hey all, looking for some marathon advise. Prior to last Saturdays half the target for DCM was sub 3. However, had a terrible run in the half after falling apart after just 5km. After contemplating dropping out I finished in 1.32 which was 3 mins slower than last year. I put it down to not feeling recovered after Galway HIM but I am questioning myself now if it was more than that.

Have you done any tempos in training? Normally these would have been done at or better than HM pace and for longer than 5km so if you've done similar on another day more comfortably then maybe it was just tiredness from the HIM.

What pace did you set out at? Do your other PB's point at a sub 3 capability? What run rime did you have in the 70.3? We all have our off days so I'd never pin all my plans on one race.

NeedsTraining

Thanks for the replies.

To answer some of your questions and hopefully give a better indication of where I am at.

HIM run time was 1.39 and was within my target so was happy with it. Was conservative as I had never raced this distance before (HIM that is).

My times throughout the summer have pointed towards a sub 3 marathon.
5k - 18.02
5 mile - 32.10
10 mile - 64

I have been combining long runs, tempo and intervals so the correct training is there I believe.

After looking back over logs and daily routines, I see work was mental and training was somewhat rushed, legs felt tired and wasn't properly hydrated on the Wed and Thursday before the race.

Maybe I won't throw in the towel just yet.

Further advice welcome

Clearlier

Van Bosch - Yes it would be too much.



NeedsTraining - I don't know much about triathlon racing but I'd imagine that a half ironman fairly takes it out of you. Attempting a full-on half marathon two weeks later sounds like a recipe for tears to be honest. Add in what you have mentioned about tiredness and stress at work and I think you've got your answer as to why you performed so far below your own standards.



Other thoughts which may or may not be welcome . Taken in isolation I'm not sure that your times do suggest a sub-3 although you're not far away. The 5k does but that's the least relevant. The 5 mile is irrelevant as your 10 mile pace was quicker. 64mins for 10 miles is right on the borderline of what's needed to get a sub-3. Taken together with the 5k this suggest that endurance is an issue and you'll struggle to hold pace for a sub-3.

That said, I am taking those in isolation, if for example you had done the 10 miles 3 months ago and the 5k 2 weeks ago then I wouldn't draw the same conclusion at all. Also you could easily have progressed significantly since you did those races.



However if the times are representative of your current fitness levels then I'd suggest you adjust your training slightly during the last few weeks to favour endurance ahead of VO2 max work which is what I assume you're doing with interval training. You could keep intervals but maybe make them very long with long rest in between. That way you're still getting in some fast running but it's predominantly working your aerobic system e.g. 3*10mins with 5mins rest.

macinalli

Hi folks,
Not actually doing the Dublin marathon (Liverpool instead in 2 weeks) but thought this would be a good place to ask about gels. For previous marathons I've taken them at pretty random times and was wondering about a strategy for Liverpool. This time around I did almost all of my training without gels (I tried 1 in my last LSR at the weekend to check it agreed with me - all good!) so have no basis for deciding on how many gels and when to take them. Any advice?

Van.Bosch

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Hi I'm following Hal Higdon Intermediate 1 for my second marathon and my training has been good to date. I'm aiming for 3:50 and feel my training is on course. I did DCM 2 years ago with a similar goal, blew up after 14 miles and came home in 4:14, was happy enough but know I can go faster.

As I said training is good and my race times are good, 10mile 76 mins & half 1:43. My problem is I'm just in from my LSR which was due to be 18 but I had planned 20 (as I felt my weakness last time was not enough 20 miles), first 12 were fine but started to feel wrecked at 13 and finished at 17.6 miles in 2:33. I felt a bit sick so didn't want to push.

Now I'm worried that psychologically quitting at 17.6 shows a risk for the marathon. I think since that pace is PMP maybe i went too fast. After all that rambling I guess my question is how would you feel? Just put it down to a bad run or what?

Thanks

Thanks to everyone for their responses on this.

An update, since then i have completed the half marathon in the park and a 20 Miler yesterday. The HM went great and I did it in 1:41:52 (beat Clontarf PB of 1:43:10) and felt great afterwards, the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR.

McMillan says I should be aiming for 3:36 based on the half and 3:57 based on the 20 Miler. I know races are usually more accurate but I think the 20 Miler is more relevant. I am hoping to get under 3:50 / 3:55.

Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

I suppose my question is what target would you go for if you had these times? Also do people ever plan to run a second half slower than the first or should you always aim to maintain a steady pace hoping that the energy saved at the start is stored for you in the final miles?

pistol_75

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for their responses on this.

An update, since then i have completed the half marathon in the park and a 20 Miler yesterday. The HM went great and I did it in 1:41:52 (beat Clontarf PB of 1:43:10) and felt great afterwards, the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR.

McMillan says I should be aiming for 3:36 based on the half and 3:57 based on the 20 Miler. I know races are usually more accurate but I think the 20 Miler is more relevant. I am hoping to get under 3:50 / 3:55.

Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

I suppose my question is what target would you go for if you had these times? Also do people ever plan to run a second half slower than the first or should you always aim to maintain a steady pace hoping that the energy saved at the start is stored for you in the final miles?

Well done on your half marathon time. You beat me by a few seconds. Based on this I think you could aim for around 3:45 pace for the marathon and if you felt stronger push on towards the end.

You should check the pace you are running your LSR's at though. 8:45 is not a slow pace to start. I would suggest it is too quick based on the time you are looking for. I would do most of mine between 9 & 9:15 pace starting at the slower end and gradually increasing pace towards the end. If you are running them at the right pace you should be able to pick up the pace for the last few miles. These runs are more about time on your feet than pace.

RayCun

Van.Bosch wrote: »

the LSR took 2:57 and I felt pretty wrecked after it. I went slow to start (8:45) and slowed a bit in the final few miles to about 9:15. I suppose this is still to quick for a LSR....Based on this LSR I should get about 3:57, now obvioualy as an LSR you would expect to go faster in a race but I worry about slowing down in the last miles. Maybe this is just in my head and on the day I will be able to maintian a 8:45 pace throughtout with a slight slippage towards the end for 3:50.

Yes, much too fast for an LSR, which is why you couldn't maintain the pace towards the end. On race day, well rested, with the boost of the race atmosphere, you should be able to maintain that pace the whole distance, but doing it in training is crazy.

Clearlier

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Van.Bosch

Clearlier wrote: »

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

Based on the above comments I get the impression that 3:50 is possible and 3:45 should be possible if I pace myself properly and go for an average of 8:35 a mile. As opposed to a first 13 of 8:35 and a second 13 of 8:55 if aiming for sub 3:50

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Mr Slow

Just to point out that 8:45 a mile gives you 3:49.

Van.Bosch

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just to point out that 8:45 a mile gives you 3:49.

corrected that now, got mixed up between my aim of 3:50 and a possible 3:45 - Thanks

Mr Slow

Van.Bosch wrote: »

corrected that now, got mixed up between my aim of 3:50 and a possible 3:45 - Thanks

Just being pedantic!;)

Clearlier

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

You might find it helpful to think about going at a steady pace at the beginning so that you don't get shattered for the last 10. Most people work better when they think about what they need to do rather than what they need to not do.

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Probably . This is where the advice about training to race is relevant. 3 LSR's in a row taking c. 3hrs to complete will leave you feeling wiped. What would you be practising anyway?

Rest is important because that's when the adaptations to your training take place. If you don't rest you don't adapt. You don't get faster when you train, you get faster when you rest!

Mr Slow

Clearlier wrote: »

You don't get faster when you train, you get faster when you rest!

I'll throw the feet up so, roll on DCM;)

Clearlier

Mr Slow wrote: »

I'll throw the feet up so, roll on DCM;)

Had a feeling somebody might say that :P

itsalltrue

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

Mr Slow

itsalltrue wrote: »

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

I'm in a similar position to yourself, actually there's seconds between us and I've asked the same questions, I was advised to run a long paced run to see how it feels which I did, 20 with 14 @ 7:43 and it was tough, I'm going to follow the 3:30 pacers until 15 miles and try and pull away at that point, every 10 secs gained is 10 secs off 3:30.

Also McMillan is too optimistic for the marathon especially in the first few marathon training rotations.

macinalli

Am also in a similar boat to you! My pace is based on 2 x 10 mile races (both around 70 mins) and have run 2 x 20 miles LSR and 1 x 21. Have decided that I'm going to aim for around 7.40 pace and will see how the race plays out. I'll be doing Liverpool next Sunday so will let you know how it goes.

Itsalltrue - I wouldn't go for the 7.30 mile pace to see how far it goes. Lots of people on here say that you can't bank time in a marathon, and if it does go wrong you'll lose much more time than you've gained. Do you need to run with the DCM pacer? If you think you can get 3.20, why not go at that pace from the start?

dernipper

How did Athlone go? As I mentioned originally had the same as plan yourself and was going to do another LSR this W/E after doing 22, the 3/4 last week and then another 22 this W/E but going to listen to the body and scale back this week and just do a shorter run of about 8/10 miles this w/e, just feel a couple of niggles and just feel the risk is not worth it,,, so be careful and don't push it too hard especially this close !!!

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Clearlier wrote: »

Van Bosch - Train to race, don't race in training. Start all your runs very slowly, speed up gradually and finish fast if you want to. Adhere to those two principles over the next few weeks and the 3:45 that RayCun mentioned should be yours for the taking.

For the race itself, steady pace every time. You can't bank time in a marathon.

Thanks again for the contributions, I think the above sums up exactly what I have been trying to do. Sub consciously I have had this niggle about DCM 2009 where I was shattered for the last 10 miles and I think I was trying to get a few good miles in early to offset at the end, which obviously then shatters you at the end, so is counterproductive.

Based on the above comments I get the impression that 3:50 is possible and 3:45 should be possible if I pace myself properly and go for an average of 8:35 a mile. As opposed to a first 13 of 8:35 and a second 13 of 8:55 if aiming for sub 3:50

I have another LSR in the plan for two weeks from now with a step back week this week. I know prople have already advised against doing the Athlone 3/4 between two 20 Milers but the plan has me down as doing 12 this weekend. Would doing a LSR for 20 again be stupid? I know rest is important but bearing in mind the above has just dawned on me should I have two LSR's to practice.

Thanks again

Clearlier

itsalltrue wrote: »

Looking for some more advice.

I ran the half in 1:32:45 - McMillin Calc say i should complete the full in 3:17.

Yesterday i ran my long run 21.25 miles in 3 hours. My legs were a little sore at the end but i felt i had loads of energy left to keep going. That pace was around 8:30 minute miles. I was fairly even the whole way around with my last few miles at the same speed as my first few.

I really want to break 3:30 which i feel i'm well capable of doing however with feeling so good should i push myself a little more. Its my 2nd marathon and i learnt a lot from the first. Shoul i look to getting closer to 3:20

I'm in 2 minds - stick with the 3:30 pacer all the way and see if i can pull away towards the end.

Or

Run the 1st 3 miles with the pacer and increase my speed to 7:30 minute miles and see how far it takes me.

Any advice?

I don't suppose that you've been using a HRM? It's a useful way of gauging effort (holding yourself back) especially in a marathon where the first half really should feel easy.

3:17 off your half is possible only if you are well trained and can run a fairly even split or you have made a leap in fitness since the half. Normally you would be running for several years and probably averaging 50-60+mpw in training for this race. Obviously there are exceptions but if you met those criteria I'd happily tell you to sit behind the 3:15 pacers and keep their balloons in sight for the first several miles.

How has your training progressed in the last 4 weeks? Have you made any changes to your schedule/seen any improvements in performance?

How important is 3:30 to you? If it is your A goal and you'd be gutted missing it then head out with the 3:30 pacers and if you feel like it pick it up for the last few miles. If on the other hand you think you'd spend the next year thinking about what might have been you might want to start a little further up but focus on keeping it easy for the first half. The latter approach requires a lot of discipline and is not an easily executed race. You'll need to spend some time visualising what'll happen (good practice anyway), imagine how you'll react in different scenarios and have a plan to fall back on if it starts feeling wrong.

Just remembered about the wave system - which wave are you in? Which wave are the 3:30 pacers in? That could make a difference because you won't be able to keep an eye on the 3:15 balloons if you're in the second wave.

I wouldn't be that enamoured with the idea of sticking with the pacers for three miles and then taking off. If you want to stop yourself going off to fast then 2 miles will be enough to settle down. You want to get into the rhythm of the pace that you're going to run at sooner rather than later and sit back in your armchair for the first half.