Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

invpat · 29-08-2011 2:46pm

Hi Guys,
New to this forum, just looking for a little training advice.Completed my first marathon in Longford yesterday 4 04 18.I was looking good to break four hours but in the final mile developed a stitch and clocked a 14 48 time for my last mile which i basically walked.Really peed because i put alot of training in since January. My question is I now have been bitten by the marathon bug and would like to compete in Dublin, my training culminating in the tapering off period was all for the 28th of August, what training schedule should I now follow to peak for the DCM.

RayCun · 29-08-2011 3:37pm

This is probably worth a look, but I can't imagine wanting to run 20 miles in the week after a marathon

invpat · 29-08-2011 4:18pm

RayCun wrote: »

This is probably worth a look, but I can't imagine wanting to run 20 miles in the week after a marathon

Thanks RayCun for your post, is it a good idea to try this or am i being overly optimistic

Mr Slow · 29-08-2011 6:12pm

neilc wrote: »

Ditto, did the Warriors Run yesterday as hard as I could and a 17 mile LSR today. Suffering now but hoping it'll be worth in in Berlin in 4 weeks.

It's definately a key workout, I added one to the plan 2 weeks ago due to time constraints, it stings but it definately has a major benefit!

RayCun · 29-08-2011 7:03pm

invpat wrote: »

Thanks RayCun for your post, is it a good idea to try this or am i being overly optimistic

I can't imagine that you're going to get stronger between now and Dublin, you'll just have time to recover from one marathon and taper for the next. But maybe there were mistakes you made that you can correct this time around, and having the crowds and the pacers might mean you run a better race.

ecoli · 30-08-2011 4:36pm

invpat wrote: »

Thanks RayCun for your post, is it a good idea to try this or am i being overly optimistic

Would you consider a Spring marathon? You could work away at your shorter distances in mean time after you get recovery from this marathon. This most likely would ahve a huge knock on effect on how much you can improve in your next marathon attempt? Maybe even a Half marathon or ten miler to focus you over the winter?

brownian · 01-09-2011 12:58pm

I tried something similar between the Conn marathon and the Kildare one this year, and found that it was just too hard on the body and mind, so pulled out of Kildare. Your own experience may differ, of course, but I'd agree with the advice from ecoli above; give your body a chance to recover, then build on speed and endurance for springtime. Congrats on being bitten by the bug - a decent amount of training should certainly push you down below 4:00 (and well beyond), all things being equal.

Good luck with it.

ManFromAtlantis · 01-09-2011 1:46pm

i see that on entry form they ask you for predicted finishing time eg 3;30 - 4:15 and 3 - 3:00 etc

does anyone know if you will be guaranteed to start in whatever pen/section your time indicates ? ta

menoscemo · 01-09-2011 3:03pm

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

i see that on entry form they ask you for predicted finishing time eg 3;30 - 4:15 and 3 - 3:00 etc

does anyone know if you will be guaranteed to start in whatever pen/section your time indicates ? ta

Yeah, you get a colour depending on your predicted time. Certainly it's strictly enforced for teh faster pen (sub 3:30 I think).

dernipper · 01-09-2011 9:54pm

Just found this thread, only ever looked in the events & gear threads so this is a pleasent surprise and source of information !!

I have a question which I would be interested in getting some feedback as there are a number of experienced runners on here.

Due to injury which pretty much wiped out my training for June & July I have had to replan my training, at the moment I am back on track and have LSR's scheduled for the next consecutive weekends as follows, 18, 20, HM in the park, 22, 20, 18, 10 followed by 2 weeks taper,,,

I am a fairly experienced runner at this stage as in this will be my 3rd marathon and have been training / running for the past 4 years. I am ahead of where I was this time last year when I did a comfortable 3:45 in Dublin. I pretty much kept a good level of training straight through from Dublin last year and trained hard for the spring 10 miles (Waterford, Ballycotton) and then concentrated on a lot of 5ks for speed and endurance so I am coming from a good base but wondering is the above a bit of diminishing returns I.E. would I better served by removing 1 or 2 of the LSR's ????

Appreciate limited info and not knowing all the required details so any thoughts are welcomed.

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah, you get a colour depending on your predicted time. Certainly it's strictly enforced for teh faster pen (sub 3:30 I think).

menoscemo · 01-09-2011 10:12pm

dernipper wrote: »

Just found this thread, only ever looked in the events & gear threads so this is a pleasent surprise and source of information !!

I have a question which I would be interested in getting some feedback as there are a number of experienced runners on here.

Due to injury which pretty much wiped out my training for June & July I have had to replan my training, at the moment I am back on track and have LSR's scheduled for the next consecutive weekends as follows, 18, 20, HM in the park, 22, 20, 18, 10 followed by 2 weeks taper,,,

I am a fairly experienced runner at this stage as in this will be my 3rd marathon and have been training / running for the past 4 years. I am ahead of where I was this time last year when I did a comfortable 3:45 in Dublin. I pretty much kept a good level of training straight through from Dublin last year and trained hard for the spring 10 miles (Waterford, Ballycotton) and then concentrated on a lot of 5ks for speed and endurance so I am coming from a good base but wondering is the above a bit of diminishing returns I.E. would I better served by removing 1 or 2 of the LSR's ????

Appreciate limited info and not knowing all the required details so any thoughts are welcomed.

Long Runs are key tp Marathon Prep, so the more of them you can do the better. The above look like you are effectively 'tapering' after the 22 miler (the long runs are getting shorter). When you say you are going to have a 2 week taper after running a 10 miler, what do you mean? Run Nothing? Really you should be running 10 miles or so a week before the marathon and that would be part of your 'taper'. Tapering means cutting down the mileage 2-3 week before the marathon. Therefore you should be running your peak mileage 2 or 3 weeks before the marathon, then cutting back a bit. (25% per week is reccommended).

Therefore your weekend long runs after the HM should look something like:
20/22 (24-25 sept)
18 (1-2 oct)
20/22 (8-9 Oct)
16 (15-16 oct)
12 (22-23 oct)
Marathon

You should be running your peak mileage on the week ending the 9th if you are using a 3 week taper or the week ending the 16th October (if using a 2 week taper).

dernipper · 01-09-2011 10:40pm

Food for thought there alright, first off thanks for the info, what I meant by tapering was essentialy 'easy' workouts until the day itself, I consider LSR from half marathon upwards so essentially my tapering would include 8-10 miles ran at an easy pace.

I am certainly going to have a close look at your suggestions, last year my longest runs was a 16 mile and the Athlone 3/4 after which I essentially tapered to the marathon, cruised along until mile 23 - 25 when I suffered which I knew would happen as I didnt have the required number of longer runs so was hoping my plan would cater for that,,,

menoscemo wrote: »

Long Runs are key tp Marathon Prep, so the more of them you can do the better. The above look like you are effectively 'tapering' after the 22 miler (the long runs are getting shorter). When you say you are going to have a 2 week taper after running a 10 miler, what do you mean? Run Nothing? Really you should be running 10 miles or so a week before the marathon and that would be part of your 'taper'. Tapering means cutting down the mileage 2-3 week before the marathon. Therefore you should be running your peak mileage 2 or 3 weeks before the marathon, then cutting back a bit. (25% per week is reccommended).

Therefore your weekend long runs after the HM should look something like:
20/22 (24-25 sept)
18 (1-2 oct)
20/22 (8-9 Oct)
16 (15-16 oct)
12 (22-23 oct)
Marathon

You should be running your peak mileage on the week ending the 9th if you are using a 3 week taper or the week ending the 16th October (if using a 2 week taper).

menoscemo · 01-09-2011 10:50pm

dernipper wrote: »

Food for thought there alright, first off thanks for the info, what I meant by tapering was essentialy 'easy' workouts until the day itself, I consider LSR from half marathon upwards so essentially my tapering would include 8-10 miles ran at an easy pace.

Most people recommend maintaining intensity and cutting back on mileage during the taper. Lets say you usually do a 'fast' midweek run. If that run was 8 miles in your peak week, then cut it to 6 miles in the first taper week and then 4 miles in the second taper week. (similarly if you do intervals, maintain the pace but decrease the number of intervals).

A lot of people over taper and this leaves them feeling far from sharp on marathon day. I know I definitely 'over tapered' for my first marathon and feel I did not perform well as a consequence.

dernipper · 02-09-2011 7:46am

Same taper error here, I did the same for my first marathon, pretty much did nothing for 3 weeks and suffered as a result, last year I thought I got the taper part right as I felt great on the day but certainly my volume of LSR's was insufficient so just want to get that balance right of good hard but smart training and over training

menoscemo wrote: »

dernipper wrote: »

Food for thought there alright, first off thanks for the info, what I meant by tapering was essentialy 'easy' workouts until the day itself, I consider LSR from half marathon upwards so essentially my tapering would include 8-10 miles ran at an easy pace.

Most people recommend maintaining intensity and cutting back on mileage during the taper. Lets say you usually do a 'fast' midweek run. If that run was 8 miles in your peak week, then cut it to 6 miles in the first taper week and then 4 miles in the second taper week. (similarly if you do intervals, maintain the pace but decrease the number of intervals).

A lot of people over taper and this leaves them feeling far from sharp on marathon day. I know I definitely 'over tapered' for my first marathon and feel I did not perform well as a consequence.

ecoli · 02-09-2011 10:24am

dernipper · 02-09-2011 11:06am

I find that I can sometimes take a bit longer to fully recover after a run so I follow the 'listen to your body' maxim quite a bit so for the taper period I go for short and snappy workouts a bit of intensity, low impact workouts, leaves me feeling fresh for the day of races, played a lot of gaa over the years so think it is a legacy of being used to manage to be fresh and ready for games,,, always things to be learned though and whilst all my LSR are on same time, same day , same gear as race day the idea of doing this even during taper is a good one that I will incorporate

going to revise my LSR plan based on previous feedback, will post it later, thanks again for the feedback, much appreciated

ecoli wrote: »

I would agree with menoscemo many people go OTT with the taper

Many people see this phase as a chance to "rest up" and include more rest days and no quality work. believe it or not the best way is to keep the amount of runs we do normally as the same. So if you train 6 days a week then your taper should be the same. The reduction in mileage should be spread equally over the training sessions. The frequency of your training is important, every time we run we produce enzymes which help respiration within the muscle cells. If we decrease the frequency we run we inhibit the production of this enzyme.

Normally the rule I by roughly is 3 weeks out 75%, 2 weeks 60% 1 week 40%

Sample Taper period for 60mpw runner

Day|Week 3|Week 2|Week 1|
Monday|7 miles easy|5.5 miles easy|4 miles easy|
Tuesday|7 miles easy|5.5 miles easy| 4 miles easy|
Wednesday|Session (5 miles)|Session(3 miles)|Session (2 miles)|
Thursday|7 miles easy|5.5 miles easy| 4 miles easy|
Friday|OFF|OFF| 3 miles easy|
Saturday|Session (5 miles)|Session(3 miles)|OFF|
Sunday|13.5 miles easy|11 miles easy| 3 miles easy|
Mileage|45|34| 17|

Tip: The session in the build up to the marathon is a great chance to do a dress rehersal. Get up same time as you would on race day, same breakfast same warm up etc everything and then go out and run 2 mile @ MP. This can be great for shedding some of the nerves on race day and also can help some people from going out too fast due to nervous energy.

average_runner · 06-09-2011 9:32am

I agreed with the lads above, my last two marathons i overed tapered. The P&D taper program is what i will follow this time.

itsalltrue · 07-09-2011 11:49am

Last Year i completed the DCM in 3:57. My longest run was 21.25 miles in 3 hours 30 minutes. I completed that run twice.

This year i'm moving alot quicker and recent completed an 18 mile run in 2hours 29 mins and a 19.5 mile run in 2 hours 39 mins.

My question is regarding tim on feet. When i complete my 22 mile run i expect it to be around 3 hours. Should i go for longer to get more time on the feet or shoul i leave it as is. I'm hoping to go close to 3:30 for this years DCM

kennyb3 · 07-09-2011 12:11pm

I dont think you have to run for the full 3 hrs 30 in training - your training is the accumulation of all the miles you run so you should be grand on the day.

I think you should be looking at 3'15 to 3'20 though as your running nealy 20miles at 3.30 MP already in training - im sure you can find at least 10 mins on the day.

I suppose it begs the question why your running 19.5miles at PMP?

Clearlier · 07-09-2011 12:47pm

3hr runs and full distance runs have become relatively popular among semi-elite runners. I certainly wouldn't advise going over 3 hours. You're greatly increasing your risk of injury with little fitness gain.

KennyB3's question about your fast long runs is valid too. If you'd like any thoughts on your overall plan post some more details and there's a few people who'd be happy to chip in some thoughts. Mileage, pace, types of runs etc.

Good luck!

itsalltrue · 07-09-2011 2:52pm

My training so far is

Monday 5/6 mile recovery run (8.30 min mile pace)
Tuesday - 5 a side soccer + 1 hr Core training session
Wednesday - 9.5 mile hard run (avg 7 minute miles)
Thursday - 5/6 mile recover run (8.30 min mile pace)
Friday Rest/6mile run
Saturday - rest
Sunday - Long run (Currently i have done 1*19.5, 2*18mile runs, 5*16mile runs Average 8 minute miles.) I plan a 20 mile run this weekend

My Plan would be to go below 3hours 30 mins

kennyb3 · 07-09-2011 3:07pm

Based on your long run and 9.5M @ 7m/pm you should be going well below 3.30 (and certainly not 'hoping to get close to 3.30' as said before)

ecoli · 07-09-2011 3:11pm

itsalltrue wrote: »

My training so far is

Monday 5/6 mile recovery run (8.30 min mile pace)
Tuesday - 5 a side soccer + 1 hr Core training session
Wednesday - 9.5 mile hard run (avg 7 minute miles)
Thursday - 5/6 mile recover run (8.30 min mile pace)
Friday Rest/6mile run
Saturday - rest
Sunday - Long run (Currently i have done 1*19.5, 2*18mile runs, 5*16mile runs Average 8 minute miles.) I plan a 20 mile run this weekend

My Plan would be to go below 3hours 30 mins

My advice would be doing any more than 15 miles at MP you are not giving your body enough time to recovery from your weekend sessions. What I would suggest would be 10 miles at closer to 9 min pace and then 10 @ 8 min pace. if you wanted to include PMP miles though given you have already done 8 of these might not be a bad idea to keep the entire 20 miles at roughly 9 min pace - 9.30. Long easy runs are just as important and give aas much benefit as the paced miles.

if you want to include PMP miles my suggestion would be to alternate this every other week

So 20 miles easy this week
followed by maybe 10 miles easy, 8 miles MP next week or whatever your plan has scheduled

You will see more benefits by training smarter rather than harder

Best of luck

Clearlier · 07-09-2011 5:16pm

itsalltrue wrote: »

My training so far is

Monday 5/6 mile recovery run (8.30 min mile pace)
Tuesday - 5 a side soccer + 1 hr Core training session
Wednesday - 9.5 mile hard run (avg 7 minute miles)
Thursday - 5/6 mile recover run (8.30 min mile pace)
Friday Rest/6mile run
Saturday - rest
Sunday - Long run (Currently i have done 1*19.5, 2*18mile runs, 5*16mile runs Average 8 minute miles.) I plan a 20 mile run this weekend

My Plan would be to go below 3hours 30 mins

As ecoli says something close to 9mm should be your pace for the 20mile run this weekend. That'll give you 3 hrs and I wouldn't bother going longer than that.

Looking at your training week you're doing a lot of good things but I have a few thoughts which might be useful. I'm going to make a couple of assumption which if invalid might negate what I say. I'd guess that like most of us you're coming from a background of playing a bit of football or something like it a couple of times a week and maybe the odd run. I'd also guess that in running 3:57 you either didn't find it too hard or you faded quite a lot towards the end of the race. In other words endurance is a problem but you could probably knock out a half marathon in 95mins without too much difficulty.

In your training above you've got 2-3 easy runs, 1 long threshold run and one long run. There's a couple of things that strike me about your training. First off is that you're well capable of going faster than 3:30. The second thing is that there's not a great focus on endurance.

In order to get the biggest return for your training I'd suggest you back off on the fast midweek run and replace it with a medium long run at an easyish pace. In the time that you've got left you could start at 12 and build up to 14.

The threshold run has got a place though and I'd put in on Friday in your schedule - warm up for a mile or 2, run 5 - 6 miles at 7mm pace and warm down for 1 or 2. I'd alternate it on a weekly basis with a run of about 7 - 8 miles building to 10 over a couple of weeks at 7:30mm pace (which is probably closer to your true marathon pace).

If you have to back off a little on the long run because of these don't worry. Thursday's could be rest or a genuinely slow jog for 25-30 mins.

Another thought is that it's worth doing small bits of core work more regularly than once a week.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Ben Hadad · 09-09-2011 2:57pm

Hi all, just a quick question.

I decided to run the DCM on 4/8/11 without ever running anything before but with a decent historic base of fitness I suppose. I also did the ring of Kerry cycle earlier in the summer which is a leg based endurance event just like the marathon so I'm not totally green. Now in the previous month I have been taking it relatively easy, as I cannot afford to get injured with a 12 week preparation time. Nevertheless I ran half a marathon yesterday evening in about 1:45.

I'm pretty tired today, but I am wondering how I should train from now on and for what time I should be aiming at. I understand I will need to stretch out this long run to about one 19-20 miles run before the marathon, however I am worried about potential injury with my limited running experience. My main goal is to just do it. I am not putting any pressure on myself time wise, but obviously it would be nice to break 4 hours.

Any advice on how I should proceed from here would be much welcomed.

menoscemo · 09-09-2011 3:05pm

Ben Hadad wrote: »

Hi all, just a quick question.

I decided to run the DCM on 4/8/11 without ever running anything before but with a decent historic base of fitness I suppose. I also did the ring of Kerry cycle earlier in the summer which is a leg based endurance event just like the marathon so I'm not totally green. Now in the previous month I have been taking it relatively easy, as I cannot afford to get injured with a 12 week preparation time. Nevertheless I ran half a marathon yesterday evening in about 1:45.

I'm pretty tired today, but I am wondering how I should train from now on and for what time I should be aiming at. I understand I will need to stretch out this long run to about one 19-20 miles run before the marathon, however I am worried about potential injury with my limited running experience. My main goal is to just do it. I am not putting any pressure on myself time wise, but obviously it would be nice to break 4 hours.

Any advice on how I should proceed from here would be much welcomed.

Stretch out your Long runs, but in order to keep yourself free from Injury and fatigue, run them very slow. Your goal time is 9 min/mile, you certainly should not be running your long runs any faster than this, in fact try to slow them down to at least 9'30 min/mile.

Pace is the killer on the long runs, not distance. If you get the long runs in slowly but comfortably you will be more accustomed to covering the distance and spending the time on your feet. You will be able to go a bit faster on the day.

Clearlier · 09-09-2011 3:29pm

Ben Hadad, if you post a little more information about your training so far (as much detail as you can) we might be able to give you more specific advice. Long runs are important but overall mileage is probably more important.

Ben Hadad · 09-09-2011 3:46pm

Clearlier wrote: »

Ben Hadad, if you post a little more information about your training so far (as much detail as you can) we might be able to give you more specific advice. Long runs are important but overall mileage is probably more important.

Yeah sorry. I started off basically trying to get my distance up. So I started off doing roughly 4-6 Km runs as quick as I could with then a longer slower one every forth day say. I was also taking frequent rest days as my calfs were tightening up and the tendons in my ankles were getting quite sore. These have no subsided and I am just getting standard muscle tiredness which is good. I am a firm believer in not over training however I do push myself if you know what I mean. If I'm feeling tired in my legs I tend to do a shorter faster run with a rest day the day after, and if I'm feeling good I do a longer run with a run the next day also. I have slowly been building up my distances so my long long runs are now half marathons and shorter quicker ones roughly 5-6 miles and standard runs 9-10 miles. This I hope to progressively keep creeping up, however probably at a slower rate than the jump I have made in the last month.

Sorry about the lack of scientific info as I have been playing it by ear so far, whilst listening to my body. To be honest I didn't even know the length of my runs until last night as I was able to work it out on Goggle maps distance calculator and I never timed a run previously either.

I prefer the rocky 4 style of training rather than drago approach:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xHjC27YvM

Clearlier · 09-09-2011 4:22pm

Your training is progressive and mixed in distance and pace. You're listening and responding to your body and you've a sensible goal. It sounds like you're doing an excellent job of preparing yourself.

You probably have the ability to run quite a bit under 4 hours but given your lack of running background and that it's your first marathon if you're happy with sub-4 I'd stick to it as a target. If the rest of your training goes really you can give yourself a more challenging goal closer to the day when you'll have a better idea of the shape that you're in. Don't be tempted to go out too fast on the day though - the first half of a well paced marathon feels easy.

Good luck!

Van.Bosch · 10-09-2011 2:43pm

Hi I'm following Hal Higdon Intermediate 1 for my second marathon and my training has been good to date. I'm aiming for 3:50 and feel my training is on course. I did DCM 2 years ago with a similar goal, blew up after 14 miles and came home in 4:14, was happy enough but know I can go faster.

As I said training is good and my race times are good, 10mile 76 mins & half 1:43. My problem is I'm just in from my LSR which was due to be 18 but I had planned 20 (as I felt my weakness last time was not enough 20 miles), first 12 were fine but started to feel wrecked at 13 and finished at 17.6 miles in 2:33. I felt a bit sick so didn't want to push.

Now I'm worried that psychologically quitting at 17.6 shows a risk for the marathon. I think since that pace is PMP maybe i went too fast. After all that rambling I guess my question is how would you feel? Just put it down to a bad run or what?

Thanks

Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

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