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Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread
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Catweazle - I just did a quick google on the Furman plan - it seems to be advocating 3 runs a week plus 2 hard cross training sessions. Is this what you're doing? Can you possibly provide a link to the plan you're following or give us a summary of what you have done?
Without knowing any more my guess is that the relatively small amount of running in the plan would tend towards making the long runs a little bit harder to complete. As a general rule I wouldn't be killing myself in any individual run but if I was only doing 3 runs a week I might change my mind
. If there are any guidelines on effort in your plan then I'd follow them and let the pace look after itself. 0 -
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Thanks Clearlier I might not have explained this as well as I should, the times are pulled from Furmans prescribed times for my current 5k pb which matches up with a 10 miler I did last year, with me only coming into DCM training late after tri season I couldnt do the Furman 18 week plan so I did the Runners World 12 week plan here which has only two key runs a week
The reason for the 3 run a weeks is that I am more into triathlons and I thought this would give me more time to swim and cycle - with an eye on next year as well. With tri season over though I am concentrating on the marathon running so I am heading out at least 5 times a week, those two key sessions a hill running session and some easy runs of about 5/6 miles on the other days.
Thanks for the links Cat, it does make it a lot clearer.
First a couple of thoughts on that article. It was written in 2004 by Scott Douglas and references Renato Canova, Brad Hudson and a couple of others I haven't heard of. Scott Douglas was co-author with Pete Pfitzinger of a very popular book called Advanced Marathoning. I've known lots of people who have had lots of success with it. Importantly it advocates the exact opposite to this training plan and goes down what was called the traditional route. Renato Canova is an Italian coaching in Kenya. He's had huge success and regularly posts on a site called letsrun.com. He talks about a key difference between Kenyan and European/American children being the amount of running they do. He makes the point that Kenyan's will have thousands of hours/miles more running as a young adult than any equivalent western person. Brad Hudson trained Dathan Ritzenhein for several years (before he left for one successful season with Alberto Salazar and then constant injuries). He had Ritzenhein averaging well over 100mpw (think it was 130 - 140 but not sure).
Take what I've written above and then note that this article suggests that you need to be running at least 20-30 mpw before starting this. You sure do - actually you'd need to be running at least double this and ideally treble or quadruple it. It's the classic example of why performances stagnated in the US and Europe during the 90's at long distance events. Everybody looking for a quick and easy way to get results
. Fundamentally that's why you're finding it difficult to do the hard runs - they're designed more for somebody doing highish mileage.
I'm going to make a couple of suggestions that you should feel absolutely free to ignore
. At the end of the day this is your marathon.
All the above should give a little background and perhaps some insight in to why I suggest what I'm going to suggest. One caveat to note is that I have no experience of how triathlete training influences marathon training. I'm going to assume that you have an advantage from a cardiovascular point of view and that you're less likely to get injured because you'll have a stronger all round body but I could be totally wrong - it's just what seems logical to me.
Right now if I've got it right your training is: 2 sessions from the plan you linked to, 1 hills session and 2 easy runs of about 5 or 6 miles. There's 7 weeks to go which is cutting it tight but if you can taper agressively (only you know how agressively you can taper) it should give you just about enough time to get one serious cycle of improvement in. Given your current training and your tri background I'm going to assume that you can absorb three harder runs per week. If you can't then just do two of them - there's no point in being extremely fit and injured at the start of a marathon.
I think that you need to move towards a plan that continues the long run, changes the 2nd session to alternating weeks of longer marathon pace and tempo runs and most importantly adds in a longer run during the week. I'd drop the hills - not because they're not a good training tool but because you'll get more out of other sessions and Dublin isn't hilly so there's no need for specific hill training.
Long runs: If you can manage them I'd continue with the suggestions that the plan outlines with the caveat that you can start off slowly. They suggest a pace of MP + 10%. For the first 5 miles I'd just jog along at a comfortable pace before picking it up to something close to their suggestion. Also, if the longest runs look like they're going to take more than 3 hours cut them short at 3 hours and don't make them progressive (in their definition of the word progressive). Don't do the half marathon race or if you absolutely must then do it at marathon pace with a few miles to warm up and a couple to warm down
Tempo/Marathon pace runs: I'd get rid of the gap between the sections i.e. instead of 3*2miles with 0.5 steady in between just do 6 miles straight with a couple to warm up and another 1 or 2 to warm down. Do a 5 mile/10k race a couple of weeks out instead of one of these sessions.
Longer midweek run: Do this by time. Start at 90 mins this week and get to 120 mins as soon as you can. Stay there until you start tapering. Go at whatever pace you feel like. After a few weeks of these the long runs will become easier.
Other runs: Where and whenever you can but always very easy and don't let them impact the above three type of runs.
N.B. I'm suggesting some pretty agressive changes to your training load here because I think that you're probably not likely to get injured. I wouldn't recommend it for many and it's important that you interpret the suggestions in the way that works best for you. Also, if you haven't had an easier week yet you'll have to put one in somewhere.
Good luck!0 -
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JimH - It might be worth your while running 5 directly before the half as a kind of an extended warm up. Turn the race into part of a long run. It's always better to run the extra miles beforehand if possible because unless you have a will or iron you'll bail on the extra miles afterwards 0
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Thanks very much for taking the time to write such a detailed response Clearlier, its much appreciated.
Thanks for the links Cat, it does make it a lot clearer.
First a couple of thoughts on that article. It was written in 2004 by Scott Douglas and references Renato Canova, Brad Hudson and a couple of others I haven't heard of. Scott Douglas was co-author with Pete Pfitzinger of a very popular book called Advanced Marathoning. I've known lots of people who have had lots of success with it. Importantly it advocates the exact opposite to this training plan and goes down what was called the traditional route. Renato Canova is an Italian coaching in Kenya. He's had huge success and regularly posts on a site called letsrun.com. He talks about a key difference between Kenyan and European/American children being the amount of running they do. He makes the point that Kenyan's will have thousands of hours/miles more running as a young adult than any equivalent western person. Brad Hudson trained Dathan Ritzenhein for several years (before he left for one successful season with Alberto Salazar and then constant injuries). He had Ritzenhein averaging well over 100mpw (think it was 130 - 140 but not sure).
Take what I've written above and then note that this article suggests that you need to be running at least 20-30 mpw before starting this. You sure do - actually you'd need to be running at least double this and ideally treble or quadruple it. It's the classic example of why performances stagnated in the US and Europe during the 90's at long distance events. Everybody looking for a quick and easy way to get results. Fundamentally that's why you're finding it difficult to do the hard runs - they're designed more for somebody doing highish mileage.
I do have some milage behind me, I did well over 1000 miles last year and I am not far off hitting 1000 miles for this year in the next week or two. Running was mainly for a 1/2 Ironman in July so around 13 miles long run every weekend since January, but all ran at a relatively easy pace, coming home around the 1.55 mark for 1/2 marathon pace
I'm going to make a couple of suggestions that you should feel absolutely free to ignore. At the end of the day this is your marathon.
All the above should give a little background and perhaps some insight in to why I suggest what I'm going to suggest. One caveat to note is that I have no experience of how triathlete training influences marathon training. I'm going to assume that you have an advantage from a cardiovascular point of view and that you're less likely to get injured because you'll have a stronger all round body but I could be totally wrong - it's just what seems logical to me.
You are right I have been lucky touch wood and have had no injury problems.
Right now if I've got it right your training is: 2 sessions from the plan you linked to, 1 hills session and 2 easy runs of about 5 or 6 miles. There's 7 weeks to go which is cutting it tight but if you can taper agressively (only you know how agressively you can taper) it should give you just about enough time to get one serious cycle of improvement in. Given your current training and your tri background I'm going to assume that you can absorb three harder runs per week. If you can't then just do two of them - there's no point in being extremely fit and injured at the start of a marathon.
I have never felt much of a benefit from tapering yet plus I am prone to high bouts of taper madness so the less tapering I can get away with the better
I think that you need to move towards a plan that continues the long run, changes the 2nd session to alternating weeks of longer marathon pace and tempo runs and most importantly adds in a longer run during the week. I'd drop the hills - not because they're not a good training tool but because you'll get more out of other sessions and Dublin isn't hilly so there's no need for specific hill training.
Long runs: If you can manage them I'd continue with the suggestions that the plan outlines with the caveat that you can start off slowly. They suggest a pace of MP + 10%. For the first 5 miles I'd just jog along at a comfortable pace before picking it up to something close to their suggestion. Also, if the longest runs look like they're going to take more than 3 hours cut them short at 3 hours and don't make them progressive (in their definition of the word progressive). Don't do the half marathon race or if you absolutely must then do it at marathon pace with a few miles to warm up and a couple to warm down.
MP + 10% :eek::eek::eek: I must look at that plan again, I think I have a half assed attempt at the Furman intermingled with that Runners World plan. I am doing those runs at MP + 10 seconds etc etc and not by %. So far the 13 and 15 mile long runs have been ran at just under 8.10 pace. So thats why I have found the midweek tempo runs pretty easy compared to the destruction of the long runs. Is that unsustainable, I keep looking at the 20 and 22 miles in the plan with a deep sense of foreboding. Even the easy pace Furman gives me is 8.26 pace which I don't find anything easy about when I go over ten miles. I am on week 6 alright but was planning to do more than a 1/2 marathon race, this weekend I was thinking of doing another 18 miler but at a much easier pace eg 9.07 pace just to get the time in my feet as I am conscious I am up to 20 miles the following one
Tempo/Marathon pace runs: I'd get rid of the gap between the sections i.e. instead of 3*2miles with 0.5 steady in between just do 6 miles straight with a couple to warm up and another 1 or 2 to warm down. Do a 5 mile/10k race a couple of weeks out instead of one of these sessions.
I was planning on doing the Galway Bay Half Marathon on October 2nd and basically use it as my pointer for Dublin. Unless I comfortably get under 1.40 I was going to row back on a 3.30 attempt. The plan gives me a 16 at MP + m10 seconds that weekend. Is this too near Dublin, I had thought 4 weeks out would be ok
Longer midweek run: Do this by time. Start at 90 mins this week and get to 120 mins as soon as you can. Stay there until you start tapering. Go at whatever pace you feel like. After a few weeks of these the long runs will become easier.
I think you are right with this, its something I have been looking at recently, I thought it was the best part of last years Hal Higdon. I finished the three 20 milers in training relatively comfortably but I reckon my legs couldn't stand the MP pace on the day as I broke around 18 miles, (hence this different approach) although those bastarding hills around Connemara didnt help matters. But I think another decent length mid week run would be a big help
Other runs: Where and whenever you can but always very easy and don't let them impact the above three type of runs.
N.B. I'm suggesting some pretty agressive changes to your training load here because I think that you're probably not likely to get injured. I wouldn't recommend it for many and it's important that you interpret the suggestions in the way that works best for you. Also, if you haven't had an easier week yet you'll have to put one in somewhere.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
Once again thanks for you thoughts Clearlier, as I mentioned to a friend earlier I was talking to two girls today in the gym who are doing their first marathon in Dublin and they are as excited as they come, not an idea on time goals. It was a good reality check for me, you wouldnt think it the way I am going on but I am really looking forward to Dublin I do enjoy the running but sometimes I get too caught up in times during training and should just relax a little and let what comes on the day come.0 -
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I do have some milage behind me, I did well over 1000 miles last year and I am not far off hitting 1000 miles for this year in the next week or two. Running was mainly for a 1/2 Ironman in July so around 13 miles long run every weekend since January, but all ran at a relatively easy pace, coming home around the 1.55 mark for 1/2 marathon pace
Mostly I was just ranting at the plan you linked to for the benefit of other readers to be honest
I have never felt much of a benefit from tapering yet plus I am prone to high bouts of taper madness so the less tapering I can get away with the better
I think that you only find out what works by experimenting. Obviously the 3 week taper is most commonly used and a 2 week taper is not uncommon. I have a friend whose well capable of 2:45 but who keeps cramping up around the 16 - 18 mile mark when targeting 2:55 yet he can manage a 20 mile race at a faster pace 6 weeks before. I'm trying to persuade him to ditch the 20 mile race and run the marathon off a 1 week taper. Technically there's no need to taper at all but it does seem to help most people particularly if you're training hard. Best advice I've seen is to keep the same number of runs and cut back on the distance.
MP + 10% :eek::eek::eek: I must look at that plan again, I think I have a half assed attempt at the Furman intermingled with that Runners World plan. I am doing those runs at MP + 10 seconds etc etc and not by %. So far the 13 and 15 mile long runs have been ran at just under 8.10 pace. So thats why I have found the midweek tempo runs pretty easy compared to the destruction of the long runs. Is that unsustainable, I keep looking at the 20 and 22 miles in the plan with a deep sense of foreboding. Even the easy pace Furman gives me is 8.26 pace which I don't find anything easy about when I go over ten miles. I am on week 6 alright but was planning to do more than a 1/2 marathon race, this weekend I was thinking of doing another 18 miler but at a much easier pace eg 9.07 pace just to get the time in my feet as I am conscious I am up to 20 miles the following one
Well I think that you've just answered your original question about why you're finding the long runs so hard. Interesting that you're so precise about 9:07 pace. The key thing from a training point of view is actually effort level, pace is a product of that.
I was planning on doing the Galway Bay Half Marathon on October 2nd and basically use it as my pointer for Dublin. Unless I comfortably get under 1.40 I was going to row back on a 3.30 attempt. The plan gives me a 16 at MP + m10 seconds that weekend. Is this too near Dublin, I had thought 4 weeks out would be ok
If you were only running I would say absolutely not. I think that most but not all runners need to be running 70mpw+ in training for a marathon if they also want to race a half and do their best in both. 4 weeks out is cutting it a little fine too. Your tri background probably gives you greater powers of recovery. Is it worth taking the risk though? Most importantly what impact is it going to have on the rest of your training? If you race the half marathon and struggle through training the next week then you'll have lost the benefits of that week of training. I suppose I'm saying that racing a half 4 weeks out will probably have an impact on your marathon time.
Once again thanks for you thoughts Clearlier, as I mentioned to a friend earlier I was talking to two girls today in the gym who are doing their first marathon in Dublin and they are as excited as they come, not an idea on time goals. It was a good reality check for me, you wouldnt think it the way I am going on but I am really looking forward to Dublin I do enjoy the running but sometimes I get too caught up in times during training and should just relax a little and let what comes on the day come.
You're welcome. It's good to have goals in life. Otherwise it's difficult to appreciate what you have achieved sometimes.
Enjoy Dublin!0 -
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griffin100 wrote: »I would be happy with a 3.40-45hr.
Did you see the pacers for the 3.45, there will be plenty of gossip
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