Dublin Marathon 2011 'improvers' thread

belcarra

Target HR|Session|MHR % Range|BPM|HRR % Range|BPM
140bpm|Recovery |< 76|< 140|< 70|< 146
144bpm|General Aerobic|70-81|129-149|62-75|136-153
148bpm|Long/Medium Long|74-84|136-155|65-78|140-156
155bpm|Marathon Pace|79-88|145-162|73-84|150-164
163bpm|Lactate Threshold|82-91|151-167|77-88|155-169
175bpm|VO2 max (5k Pace)|93-95|171-175|91-94|173-176

These are taken from the book and then made specific to me by the HRs.

RayCun

Yes, I found that table too - but that says the GA runs are at a lower heart rate than the Long run, somewhere between Long run and Recovery run effort, which suggests a pace in between the two?

belcarra

RayCun wrote: »

Yes, I found that table too - but that says the GA runs are at a lower heart rate than the Long run, somewhere between Long run and Recovery run effort, which suggests a pace in between the two?

TBH the top three runs are all pretty easy, being in the 140's for me personally. I am a little confused as to the beneficial difference between runs when it's a matter of 4bpm or thereabouts...

Woddle

I always thought general aerobic was just an easy pace and a kind of building the miles up kind of run.
Recovery is obviously slower than GA and is normally the day after a session.
The long/med pace is a little faster than general aerobic and has a few functions. Stops you becoming one paced and forms a kind of a bridge to marathon pace.
So although not a huge difference in heart rate, every run still has a function.

menoscemo

Woddle wrote: »

I always thought general aerobic was just an easy pace and a kind of building the miles up kind of run.
Recovery is obviously slower than GA and is normally the day after a session.
The long/med pace is a little faster than general aerobic and has a few functions. Stops you becoming one paced and forms a kind of a bridge to marathon pace.
So although not a huge difference in heart rate, every run still has a function.

I would have said that the GA pace is pretty similar to or even a little faster than Long Run pace. The AvHR ends to be a little higher in the long Run simply because the run is longer. Our HR tends to rise the longer we are on our feet even if the pace remains the same.

TBH I wouldn't worry too much about paces in GA runs- just keep them comfortable and at a conversational pace. The most important thing to remember is to keep the recovery runs very slow. As Woddle says they are generally after session/tough/lung runs, the idea is they help to freshen up the legs and aid recovery. I'd say, go no faster than a minute below PMP. So if your target is a 3'30 marathon, run recoveries at 9 min/mile at fastest.

Slowbie

According to the book Long Runs start at about PMP+20% gradually increasing to PMP+10% for the last few miles. General Aerobic Runs are run between PMP+25% and PMP+15% and their main purpose is to increase training volume. I generally run them very easy about the same pace I start my long runs maybe slightly faster. I am relatively new to running though and this is all just straight outta the book so I defer to those with more experience and I may well be running mine too slow as at the moment they feel very easy.

RayCun

I'm just not used to all the slow runs

Woddle

RayCun wrote: »

I'm just not used to all the slow runs

Try running every day and you'll welcome them

Nodnedlog

I did DCM last year for first time in 4.24 and went off too fast and suffered in 2nd half. Only started running in March 2010 and this year have better base fitness and experience. Running on average 20 miles a week since but I am starting DCM training this week.
My current times have improved and I have done a few half marathons sub 2hrs (just) and a 10 mile race in 82 min could I manage sub 4hr and if so what plan to use at this stage?

Cheers in advance for any suggestions.

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

How fast is this? I couldn't find the definition in P&D yesterday...

Just to follow up - I had a look at the marathon training plan in Road Racing for Serious Runners, also by P&D. There they just say 'Longest Run' and 'Second Longest Run', and to do them both at the same pace. So that's the pace I'll be using for the General Aerobic runs...

RayCun

Nodnedlog wrote: »

My current times have improved and I have done a few half marathons sub 2hrs (just) and a 10 mile race in 82 min could I manage sub 4hr and if so what plan to use at this stage?

I'd say you'll be close to 4 hours, could be either side of it really. (Just going on my times last year - 81 for 10 miles, 1.48 half, 3.58 full). A lot of us are using the plans from this book.

firemouth

is it too late for me to start training for the DCM?

RayCun

firemouth wrote: »

is it too late for me to start training for the DCM?

Is this your first marathon? How much running do you do each week now?

firemouth

RayCun wrote: »

Is this your first marathon? How much running do you do each week now?

i run between 20 and 30 miles a week,i do a weekly long run of at least 8miles and throw in a couple of interval/tempo sessions aswell.I ran DCM last year in 3.40 and have run two half marathons this year,finishing in 1.32 and 1.34,aswell as regular shorter distances

RayCun

firemouth wrote: »

i run between 20 and 30 miles a week,i do a weekly long run of at least 8miles and throw in a couple of interval/tempo sessions aswell.I ran DCM last year in 3.40 and have run two half marathons this year,finishing in 1.32 and 1.34,aswell as regular shorter distances

You should be fine then. It's just under 16 weeks out, there are 16 week programmes, or you could drop into week 3 of a programme.

firemouth

RayCun wrote: »

You should be fine then. It's just under 16 weeks out, there are 16 week programmes, or you could drop into week 3 of a programme.

any reccomendations on a training plan?

RayCun

I think the most popular one on this thread is the 18 week plan from here, that's what I'm using. There's also a 12 week plan in the book. I know there are 16 week plans around, but can't think of any offhand.

firemouth

RayCun wrote: »

I think the most popular one on this thread is the 18 week plan from here, that's what I'm using. There's also a 12 week plan in the book. I know there are 16 week plans around, but can't think of any offhand.

Thanks RayCun.i have one more question if you dont mind,do you use or find benifit in sports massage during training or should it just be used when injured?

RayCun

firemouth wrote: »

Thanks RayCun.i have one more question if you dont mind,do you use or find benifit in sports massage during training or should it just be used when injured?

If I could afford a massage every week or two, I'd get it. Helps loosen up the muscles, work out any kinks.

Mr Slow

firemouth wrote: »

Thanks RayCun.i have one more question if you dont mind,do you use or find benifit in sports massage during training or should it just be used when injured?

A sports massage in the first week of taper is crucial, it'll point out and hopefully correct any muscular issues you may have!

neilc

Mr Slow wrote: »

A sports massage in the first week of taper is crucial, it'll point out and hopefully correct any muscular issues you may have!

Good to know, never knew that. Will try and get one this training cycle, never got one before.

Marthastew

firemouth wrote: »

Thanks RayCun.i have one more question if you dont mind,do you use or find benifit in sports massage during training or should it just be used when injured?

Make sure you book a sports massage with someone who has been recommended to you and knows what they're doing, it's expensive but well worth it in the long run and may save you money on physio bills.

good luck with the training.

ecoli

Marthastew wrote: »

Make sure you book a sports massage with someone who has been recommended to you and knows what they're doing, it's expensive but well worth it in the long run and may save you money on physio bills.

good luck with the training.

This I think is a great point. Many people only go for massages when they start to develop niggles. Massages not only aid in injury prevention but can also boost performance and benefit flexibility.

I get a regular massage myself and it keeps me on my feet and keeps my training consistent (think Since X mas I have had 2 days missed as a result of a niggle but nothing serious). This has a knock on effect on your marathon times as consistency is one of the fundamental apects of training

Also when we are injured we tend to throw money at physio's in order to get it fixed (new shoes, orthotics, dry needling etc) even when at times these are not the most effective way to recover but we agree to what ever they say because we are desperate to get back on our feet

itsalltrue

I'm sure everyone is already aware but next Friday is the first cut off point for the Marathon and the price goes up.

Make sure to enter before then

average_runner

I always leave it to the last cut off point just in case i get injured.

Negative me eh!!!

pconn062

Hi there, I'm hoping for a bit of advice and would love to hear what some of you think. I am entered into the Dublin Marathon this year which will be my second marathon. I ran Dublin last year but ended up blowing up and finishing in 4:25. This was due to a combination of having breakfast too early (4hrs before the race) and gels which made me sick, resulting in me jogging/walking/vomiting the last 8 miles! I'm not sure what time to target for this year, last year I was on course for 3:50 till mile 18. I don't know whether to just aim to break 4 hours and get it out of the way or to aim a little lower, maybe 3:45. My PB's are:

5k- 20:50
4 mile- 26:42
5 mile- 34:10
10k- 44:34
10 mile- 1:16
1/2- 1:42 (although I've run quicker than this in training and hope to beat that at the Dublin half this year)

McMillan gives me a 3:35 marathon (off my half time, 3:19 off my 4 mile time :eek:), but I don't know if I trust that. I train with a group and am following a plan written up by a former sub 2:20 marathoner. We haven't nailed down a time yet but I just want to pick a target and set my training times around that. Sorry for yapping on, any help would be appreciated! Thanks

macinalli

Why not base your time on your result in the Dublin half this year? I know it's nice to get an idea of pace, but this far out it doesn't really matter. It shouldn't affect your training - an LSR for a 3:40 marathon will be very similar to an LSR for a 3:30 marathon...

bart simpson

pconn062 wrote: »

Hi there, I'm hoping for a bit of advice and would love to hear what some of you think. I am entered into the Dublin Marathon this year which will be my second marathon. I ran Dublin last year but ended up blowing up and finishing in 4:25. This was due to a combination of having breakfast too early (4hrs before the race) and gels which made me sick, resulting in me jogging/walking/vomiting the last 8 miles! I'm not sure what time to target for this year, last year I was on course for 3:50 till mile 18. I don't know whether to just aim to break 4 hours and get it out of the way or to aim a little lower, maybe 3:45. My PB's are:

5k- 20:50
4 mile- 26:42
5 mile- 34:10
10k- 44:34
10 mile- 1:16
1/2- 1:42 (although I've run quicker than this in training and hope to beat that at the Dublin half this year)

McMillan gives me a 3:35 marathon (off my half time, 3:19 off my 4 mile time :eek:), but I don't know if I trust that. I train with a group and am following a plan written up by a former sub 2:20 marathoner. We haven't nailed down a time yet but I just want to pick a target and set my training times around that. Sorry for yapping on, any help would be appreciated! Thanks

was the training plan written up for you?
if the plan was designed for a sub 3 runner it might not be suitable for you....you dont have to worry about "junk miles" but a sub 3 runner would.
apart from that id see how you go in the half before deciding

pconn062

bart simpson wrote: »

was the training plan written up for you?
if the plan was designed for a sub 3 runner it might not be suitable for you....you dont have to worry about "junk miles" but a sub 3 runner would.
apart from that id see how you go in the half before deciding

No the plan was kinda designed for runners between 3:30-4:00, probably a bit closer to 3:30, there's no worries of me needing a sub 3 plan anytime soon!:D

pconn062

macinalli wrote: »

Why not base your time on your result in the Dublin half this year? I know it's nice to get an idea of pace, but this far out it doesn't really matter. It shouldn't affect your training - an LSR for a 3:40 marathon will be very similar to an LSR for a 3:30 marathon...

Yeah what you both say about the Dublin half sounds good, I suppose I was just worried about setting my times in my training plan now with a particular goal in mind. But as you say the paces for a 3:30 or a 3:45 won't be THAT different.