Weight watchers....to join, or go it alone?

TaraFoxglove

Well, I thought there was some valid criticism amongst the more emotional replies. This forum does have a hostile, vaguely condescending edge IMO, it's not hugely inviting.

g'em

And I'm glad that's been brought to my attention. I mistakenly thought that this atmosphere had been quashed, but obviously it's raised it's head again. The Mods aren't omnipresent (even though sometimes it may seem like we are ) and we rely on posters to communicate with us when these things happen. We are here to help and facilitate everyone if possible, but points can be made without hurling nasty comments at people.

As I've said I'm just asking that people remove the very hostile parts of their posts, not the sentiment - I 100% understand where that's coming from.

GT_TDI_150

menoscemo wrote: »

I also apologise for quoting the post regarding Mayo/relish.
As I said afterwards, it just annoyed me that GT had come on the main forum asking for advice and then had kind of left his thread alone depsite being offered free advice. I thought we had maybe stirred the seeds of healthy eating in another poster...

I pretty much realised I shouldn't have posted what I did straight away and that it comes across pretty condescending, but I had already left work and gone for a run. By the time I got back to the computer it was obviously too late.

Anyways sorry again. Hopefully we haven't scared WW'ers away from the main forum. I think there is a lot to be learned and this forum has certainly educated me loads in the last few years.

hey, i didnt realise ye would discuss foods a micro level of is relish healthier than mayo.
The advise i was looking for origionally was how to manage if you want to keep loosing weight, but dont do a structured diet. The eat healthy till full infa school wud fail miserably for me as it tajes a ton of food to fill me.

Amtmann

Sorry in advance for the essay. Here goes:

I think a clash here was inevitable. The forum suffers from a split personality. There are two competing mantras which could not be more different from each other.
There are those who like the science of nutrition, and there are those here who post primarily because they're losing weight. You then have a nebulous group who are interested in the science of nutrition AND losing weight at the same time (I include myself in the latter two groups obviously).

Sometimes a battle for hearts and minds can break out. That's exactly what happened here in this thread. An OP asks which is better, and you naturally have a tug of war between the groups, with each side infuriating the other. Certainly one thing that annoys me is that you very rarely see WW regulars participating in other threads in the forum, yet any time a newbie comes looking for weight loss advice, a WW poster suddenly appears and tries to recruit them to the cause. (I think there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that contention btw - just browse past threads.)

The certitude of the sciency crowd annoys the WW crowd. It's seen as arrogance, and maybe it is,* but the statistics are there to allow for a bashing of WW. This then is somehow taken as personal attack on the WW posters, when I genuinely believe it's not meant to be. The target is the programme, not individuals.

From what I've seen, the two groups approach the problem of weight loss in two different ways: the WW posters are more emotional about their journey, and they seem to need the support of fellow WWers. The sciency crowd are far less emotional, and can come across as cold or patronising. The sciency crowd also emphasise sustainability, while WW posters *seem* far more concerned about getting to goal. There's an unbridgeable gap between the two groups on this point alone.

I'd also point out that while the WW posters are clearly tightly knit and passionate about WW, they should not underestimate the equally strong passion that the high-fat posters feel. The high-fat posters know that their method is supported by strong evidence and science.

Almost all of us (the sciency crowd) have lost an awful lot of weight too. It's not like we don't know what it's like to be overweight and unhappy. We've almost all been there. It is therefore incredibly frustrating for those of us with a passion for nutrition and healthy living to read some of the posts in the WW thread in this forum - a forum which exists to promote healthy eating. I can barely abide to read some of the stuff that's in the WW thread. I feel the need to correct things that are demonstrably wrong; yet as was posted, I'd be lynched if I went into the thread to say that drinking 4 pints of water is pointless for example.

Yet as a member of this community, why should I have to tip-toe around the issue? Last January when Food Diaries was closed, I opposed the closure actually as I felt it was supportive of people and fulfilled a role. It's a measure of how much I have learned since then that I now think the mods were 100% right to close it. There were lots of instances of emotional eating there, of people neglecting sound advice, and of unhealthy practices being endorsed. There are MANY good posters in the WW thread, but it carries with it the same problems as the Food Diaries in places from what I've seen. How anyone can see the benefit of posting a Mars Bar recipe in a healthy eating forum like this is beyond me. It makes an absolute mockery of what many of us have achieved in terms of education and weight loss. There is a Cake and Pie forum over in Rec for such things.

Anyway, I feel this forum is like oil and water. It's made up of two communities and that's never good. The fact that there's minimal contact between the two factions deepens the problem. And when there is contact, emotions readily boil over.

I now feel that I have to limit myself to certain threads, and limit myself to interacting with only certain other posters. I'm liked by some here, and loathed by others. Yes, I'm blunt about weight loss and nutrition, but I am open to correction. I don't see why emotions carry so much weight here when nutrition is a science.


* By the way, my thanks to G'em for pointing out that I'm not a mod here, just a regular poster. However, while she was technically correct that I cannot be expected to "know better" in this forum, the reality is that I know now - now that the dust has settled - that I should have adopted a more detached tone. I just got carried away.

TaraFoxglove

I'm not a WW person, I don't agree with it personally but I find many people on this board condescending and arrogant. So it's not as neat as a WW/anti-WW split.

And again, get off the mars bar cake, will you? Why would you find that an affront to what you have learned? Any sensible person would know that it is a very occasional treat and I thought we established yesterday that we're not all like you, some of us can occasionally have high-sugar food without it sending us off into a binge. This is were the high-handedness comes in that some people find off-putting.

Amtmann

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

And again, get off the mars bar cake, will you? Why would you find that an affront to what you have learned? Any sensible person would know that it is a very occasional treat and I thought we established yesterday that we're not all like you, some of us can occasionally have high-sugar food without it sending us off into a binge. This is were the high-handedness comes in that some people find off-putting.

But it doesn't send me off into a binge either. Please read my posts a littkle more carefully before allowing your temper to get the better of you. The sugar rush issue was explained by me in other posts, and succinctly put directly to you by Davei141.

It's been pointed out that occasional treats are not so occasional in that thread. Others can read it and judge for themselves. This has now become about where different members of the community are coming from, and how they see things. Yes, it bothers me that this forum, which is a healthy eating forum, has a thread in it which contains posts highly at variance with the precepts of healthy eating. It does bother me. Should it? Maybe not. But then I don't see why I'd post here at all. You will find that people here are passionate - just see how the breastfeeding thread became prickly. People care here and there is a low tolerance level for nonsense and unsustainability.

Roger Marbles

Tremelo wrote: »

But it doesn't send me off into a binge either. Please read my posts a littkle more carefully before allowing your temper to get the better of you. The sugar rush issue was explained by me in other posts, and succinctly put directly to you by Davei141.

It's been pointed out that occasional treats are not so occasional in that thread. Others can read it and judge for themselves. This has now become about where different members of the community are coming from, and how they see things. Yes, it bothers me that this forum, which is a healthy eating forum, has a thread in it which contains posts highly at variance with the precepts of healthy eating. It does bother me. Should it? Maybe not. But then I don't see why I'd post here at all. You will find that people here are passionate - just see how the breastfeeding thread became prickly. People care here and there is a low tolerance level for nonsense and unsustainability.

The reason the breastfeeding thread became prickly was for a different reason, one poster was making a claim using certain evidence (the WHO), which when I debunked, became defensive about it and not seeing the issue as good grounds for scientific debate.

I completely agree with your views on the WW thread though. It promotes unhealthy relationships with food and poor eating habits. Talking about food in terms of points is the most ridiculous thing I've heard, although fair play to their marketing team. To have a thread like that in a forum that prides itself on offering sensible nutritional advice is completely at odds.

What's even sadder is that most of them will fail given the statistics stated here, and that if they tried other ideas here (paleo/primal whatever) they would make both significant weight loss and significant health gains while never feeling hungry.

Should they be allowed to choose what dietary plan they wish free of harrassment and snide comments from other forummers? Yes.

Should there be a dedicated WW thread in a nutrition and fitness forum legitimising it as form of appropriate lifestyle and dietary choice? Absolutely not.

TaraFoxglove

Tremelo wrote: »

But it doesn't send me off into a binge either. Please read my posts a littkle more carefully before allowing your temper to get the better of you. The sugar rush issue was explained by me in other posts, and succinctly put directly to you by Davei141.

That wasn't temper-fuelled, mate. I was actually pretty calm typing it. See? Condescending.

Baby75

Tremelo you have me looking for more information, I want to know were I am going wrong why is it no good to drink 4 pint glasses of water a day, I am very concerned about losing weight, but thankfully food is not an emotional crutch for me, its portion size and I went through two very stressful times over the last few years and that's when my weight creeped up even though I couldn't eat I go off food when I get stressed. any way I'm rambling I am Breastfeeding a baby so eating the right food in the right amounts is very important to me. I am doing WW only as I want to lose all the extra weight and I plan on keeping it that way also

TaraFoxglove may be you should let a mod know your concerns, but also look at your self as we all should do before pressing submit. lets not keep the argument/misunderstanding going.

I think we could actually learn from each other,

Davei141

Apologies.

Brian?

Davei141 wrote: »

You have gone through each thread constantly dropping snide remarks at advice given on the basis of "That can't be right, Well it worked for me!" How about you explain what worked for you?

Instead of dragging arguments out across threads like this: Report any posts you have issues with.

menoscemo

Baby75 wrote: »

Tremelo you have me looking for more information, I want to know were I am going wrong why is it no good to drink 4 pint glasses of water a day,

I Don't think (Hope) he is not saying that drinking 4 pints of water is 'not good' or Unhealthy. I think he is just saying that for most people it is unnecessary?

Personally I would drink at least that much water, but then again I run an average of about 10 miles a day.

Baby75

menoscemo wrote: »

I Don't think (Hope) he is not saying that drinking 4 pints of water is 'not good' or Unhealthy. I think he is just saying that for most people it is unnecessary?

Personally I would drink at least that much water, but then again I run an average of about 10 miles a day.

I kinda would but because of Breastfeeding and exercise I do feel thirsty and love my water.:) may be I phrased the question wrong sorry

Davei141

Baby75 wrote: »

Tremelo you have me looking for more information, I want to know were I am going wrong why is it no good to drink 4 pint glasses of water a day,

,

On the water point, the reason most diets ask for a lot of water is because if you are constantly full to the brim with fluids, the chances of people opting for a coke etc when they are thirsty are slim. The other thing is the whole drink water don't feel hungry thing which lets face it when your chugging an extra pint you don't need its pretty horrible so of course you won't be hungry for a little while after, but after that little period you will. BUT, you get the same effect from just being hydrated, try having 2 pints and its just the same, minus having to go the toilet every little while and having to drink unnecessary excess.

Like menoscemo said though if you exercise and sweat a lot then the more water you need.

baby75 wrote:

I kinda would but because of Breastfeeding and exercise I do feel thirsty and love my water. may be I phrased the question wrong sorry

In that case drink away, but its more aimed at people who go for a set number of water like 3 litres because they think it will help with weightloss.

Lady Lainy

Davei141 wrote: »

On the water point, the reason most diets ask for a lot of water is because if you are constantly full to the brim with fluids, the chances of people opting for a coke etc when they are thirsty. The other thing is the whole drink water don't feel hungry thing which lets face it when your chugging an extra pint you don't need its pretty horrible so of course you won't be hungry for a little while after, but after that little period you will. BUT, you get the same effect from just being hydrated, try having 2 pints and its just the same, minus having to go the toilet every little while and having to drink unnecessary excess.

Like menoscemo said though if you exercise and sweat a lot then the more water you need.

well can i throw a little science in there...the body retains water, because it hasn't been sufficiently hydrated, its the ADH hormones in peturity gland of the brain that regulate the water throughout the body...when the body has sufficient water it will send signals to your kidneys to stop retaining water...ie the collecting ducts of the nephrons, which are responsible for sucking back as much water as possible before waste is sent to the bladder....

there is also a wildly used a mathematical equation for working out water requirements based on body weight also.

once the body adjusts and becomes used to the volume of water being taken in and you wont be running to the loo ever five minutes. Of course in a perfect world where no one ate cake or had a life and indulged from time to time in less than perfect foods, we'd be taking in most of our water content through a healthy balanced diet.

Anatomy & Physiology Fetac Level 5

I've definitely found since studying how and why the body works...and how food acts after we've eaten it.....i've definitely been eating WAY healthier...and it hasnt even been a chore...i'm a science person...who just happens to have emotions...

the NEW ww programme is definitely far healthier than the old one...the old programme IMO encouraged under eating all week for the sake of pigging out in the pub that weekend! NOT COOL AT ALL!

the average person of average height the GUIDELINES is 2 litres....well im far from average in both weight and height :P so i do drink a bit more than two litres...but i'm also exercising. On days i'm less active i do drink less


if ppl think the ww thread would be better suited to the rec forum...then by all means boot us on over....cos yes...alot of our posts are general chit chat good/bad days, rants, blowing off steam as well as ww talk...

DarkBlonde

I have been reading this thread for awhile and thought I'd give my input.

I was in ww twice and I did lose weight sticking to the points BUT I lost the weight while eating lots of processed food and I had the idea that I could treat myself after weigh in every week to Chinese or home cooked Indian accompanied with lots of unnecessary carbs. I also had the odd curley wurley and other crap during the week and I stressed out every week on the weigh in day that I wouldn't be down any weight. It was a big strain on my emotions so I packed it in eventually as I wasn't able for the stress. I know some people perform great on ww and that the support of the meetings is great but it just didn't help me in the long run.

I am now eating primal for the past 2 weeks and I couldn't be happier. I know I am only 2 weeks at it but I know myself that this is for life. I feel that I have finally found the key to great health and it makes so much sense. I don't worry anymore about what I put in my mouth. It's so simple I know what food is good for my body so I eat this and I avoid grains and processed foods etc and for me this is working. I counted the calories the first few days but I don't need to anymore. I just feed my body what it needs. And the added bonus is that I have lost 6.5lb but do you no what I couldn't care less about the weight anymore because I know it will come off along the way. The best part is my health will benefit in the long run.

Sorry for the long post I just felt I needed to add this.

Davei141

[to lady lainy]You don't need to drink that much clear water to stop water retention or to even hydrate though. There is liquid is almost everything we eat that goes towards hydrating also so drinking 2 litres from a bottle can be unnecessary for the majority

menoscemo

Davei141 wrote: »

[to lady lainy]You don't need to drink that much clear water to stop water retention or to even hydrate though. There is liquid is almost everything we eat that goes towards hydrating also so drinking 2 litres from a bottle can be unnecessary for the majority

This is very true. The simple test is the urine test. If your urine is clear/light yellow (straw coloured) you are fullt Hydrated. If it is a darker yellow/orange you are dehydrated and need to drink more (water, tea, milk etc are all fine).

Lady Lainy

Davei141 wrote: »

[to lady lainy]You don't need to drink that much clear water to stop water retention or to even hydrate though. There is liquid is almost everything we eat that goes towards hydrating also so drinking 2 litres from a bottle can be unnecessary for the majority

yes correct...and i did say that in my post! there is water in nearly everything we eat. and yes drinking that much water for some is pointless.

water needs varies like calorific needs...different ppl need different amounts, that blanket rule of two litres a day does just as much damage as good.

(got my scientific hat on today)

Lady Lainy

menoscemo wrote: »

This is very true. The simple test is the urine test. If your urine is clear/light yellow (straw coloured) you are fullt Hydrated. If it is a darker yellow/orange you are dehydrated and need to drink more (water, tea, milk etc are all fine).

LOL thats exactly what i do!!!! i literly look at the colour of it! hahaha

I'm not crazy!!!!!!

Shoe Lover

Woohoo, I'm fully hydrated

I think the water depends on the individual. I try to drink about 1.5L of water during the day at work, often I drink more, somedays, I wouldn't even drink 500ml. But the reason I try to drink so much water is mainly because if I don't, I get a migraine Plus I generally feel better and more alert when I keep my water intake up!

Birdie086

Well after my ditching ww, and reading around here, I started to eat clean last wednesday. this coincided with my meeting with the trainer at the gym. I also kept an online diary at myfitnesspal, and I just by ditching the processed foods my cal intake seems to almost seemlessly match my amount of cals needed for each(-minus the deficit).

Out of interest i wieghed myself this morning(I am trying to abondan constantly jumping on the scales.
Down 3lbs, with no fuss!!! And I am immediatly fitting better into my work clothes.

You can do it your own, it you really want to, and hopefully by this time next year I will have enough knowledge built up myself to maybe point others in the right direction.

Amtmann

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

That wasn't temper-fuelled, mate. I was actually pretty calm typing it. See? Condescending.

No, I can't 'see'. The condescension you perceive from me is really just exasperation. Honestly. I have also perceived what appears to be a bite in almost all your posts towards me, so my replies to you could well be on the defensive side. I have no interest in developing a feud or grudge against you, so I'm extending an olive branch here. Let's move on. Deal?

***

Now, just getting back to it all. I agree that WW *can* be a pretty healthy programme if you eschew low fat foods and processed quasi-food, but that this depends on the individual and what they eat.

Many of the WW posters here have emphasised how well they eat and how WW does not condone the eating of junkfood. I applaud this. I'm actually your ally on this.

So is it a leap for me, then, to ask you if you yourselves are not annoyed and exasperated by *some* of the stuff that gets posted in the megathread? Surely posters who provide junkfood recipes within the WW points framework are not abiding by the healthy spirit of WW and are therefore undermining not only the thread, but WW itself? That's how I see it (and I daresay others see it that way too), and I'm surprised that you (plural) haven't been more vocal about it.

I really think that any thread in a healthy eating forum about WW should focus entirely on healthy foods and their points. Sure, I'll personally disagree with the pointing of food, but I won't rain on your parade if the food being talked about is generally healthy.

If people are talking about jellies and - yes! - Mars Bar Cakes, I don't see where this really fits into WW. I could make deep fried battered Mars Bars fit into WW too, but I'd be taking the mickey if I did that. There really is no place for junk food recipes in a WW thread in a *healthy eating forum* and that's my beef with this. I think it belongs in the Cake and Pie forum.

Also, we need to be aware of the lurkers here, the people who we don't hear from, but who read us. People come here for advice, and while you may scoff, at least some will be naive enough to think that junk is okay to eat on WW.

Now this entire thread has been a debate. I would like to think that it's okay for me to strongly advise future newbies to forego WW to lose weight, and I'd like to be able to point out the high failure rates for WW in the process. These are important points to discuss in any thread where someone asks about whether or not they should join it. These points are not attacks on individual posters here, and there is no intention to make anyone feel like c.rap.

The above is not intended to be condescending, patronising, or bullying by the way.

Flurry

Hello everyone,


I'm the user that started this thread (....don't shoot me!)

I started the thread originally to get advice on whether I should join weight watchers, or go it alone.

After hearing that the new pro-points system in WW takes into account protein and fibre now too, I decided to join WW. It was the easiest option at the time, as I could point things up, and knew what I could eat and how much of it I could eat each day.
I joined it 3 weeks ago, and lost 6.5lbs in the first two weeks. (Didn't make it to weigh-in this week due to exams).

Anyway....I'm delighted I have lost the 6.5lbs in just two weeks....BUT, I have found that I still have huge sugar cravings.

From reading this thread, (...even though it has spiralled out of control lately ) I've learnt alot about different views and theories on nutrition (many of them being facts I'm sure).

So...once my exams are over, I am going to attempt this "eating clean" approach that has been spoken of here, firstly, to lose weight, secondly, to just be healthier in general, but also thirdly, to try and eliminate these sugar/junk cravings.
Although I was in WW before a few years back and lost about 1.5 stone...I have since put it all back on. Also, since joining again a few weeks ago I have noticed that it has done nothing to stop me eating "junk"...as it's allowed within my daily allowance of points.

With some boards users help (hopefully!) I'm going to attempt to go it alone, and just eat healthily and cut out the crap stuff.

Sorry that this thread spiralled so out of control, and caused some heated discussions/arguments!

I'll keep you posted on my progress!

crazyy

I've been doing weightwatchwrs since last September and got to goal but found maintenance hard, I want to stop counting points as I find it too controlling but I'm not sure where to go from here. I'd be interested in primal or something but it'll be hard to get out of old weightwatcher habits! I think ww works well as a start but knowing foods and proper nutrition is more sustainable. I presume primal works for weight loss yeah? a 1/2 lb a week kind of expectancy?

Lady Lainy

ww inspired cakes & bakes thread is now open in baking forum.....

that okay? I'm not promoting eating crap in general...or that junk should be eaten as part of ww.....just giving people what they want....end of the day....ppl are going to eat what ever they want....pp works for those who are serious about it...

Baby75

I wonder could you combine both, could some one explain primal and eating clean for me please, I think I have a fair idea but just to be sure.

My bad, I asked for the recipe for the marsbarcake its not something I would eat every day or even once a week it was for a special occasion! I actually find now that if I do eat high fat foods or a chocolate, I feel sick it puts me off, so I find I avoid highs fat foods and if I do have a bit of chocolate it's a taste! its just not worth it any more!
we could all ways post recipes for cakes or treats in the cake section! with links if that is allowed

Baby75

Flurry well done and good luck, keep us posted on how your doing

crazyy

is 'eating clean' avoiding processed foods? sorry bit clueless!!

tantipie

i'm quite interested in the primal eating also,,started reading up on it here yesterday,,I've done ww since last june and got to goal about 6 weeks ago but felt as i've no weight to lose now then i'm on my own,,I don't eat junk food or processed food now,,and find if i do eat them my tummy will be messed up for a few days sooo not worth it!!i mostly eat stir fry's but find i struggle at lunch time as i seem to be eating homemade wraps and want to get away from the whole processed bread thing,,help:rolleyes: