Weight watchers....to join, or go it alone?

menoscemo

Baby75 wrote: »

I wonder could you combine both, could some one explain primal and eating clean for me please, I think I have a fair idea but just to be sure.

I actually find now that if I do eat high fat foods or a chocolate, I feel sick it puts me off, so I find I avoid highs fat foods and if I do have a bit of chocolate it's a taste! its just not worth it any more!

Here's a thread on it from just a few weeks ago.

It involves eating a lot of fat, specifically saturdated fat (but no chocolate).

crazyy

thanks a mil for the link!! eating fat sounds so daunting but I think it's the way to go

Frogdog

There's plenty of info and thread on eating Paleo or Primal for those that want to search the threads here in this forum.

Check out Tremelo's posts over the last couple of days for example. And Transform is another regular user who posts a lot about it and has his own blog with plenty of posts and YouTube videos on the topic.

Failing that, you could always Google either term. And there's plenty of books etc. available online surrounding the subject.

PS. To the poster who was on WW and was on about high fat foods - Baby75 I think it was, there is nothing wrong with food high in fat, provided it's not trans fats. Unsaturated fat and saturated fat are perfectly healthy. Part of the reason why some of us don't like WW is because it preaches the myth that saturated fat, if not all fat, is unhealthy and should be eaten in small amounts, if at all.

Amtmann

Flurry wrote: »

It was the easiest option at the time, as I could point things up, and knew what I could eat and how much of it I could eat each day.
I joined it 3 weeks ago, and lost 6.5lbs in the first two weeks. (Didn't make it to weigh-in this week due to exams).

Anyway....I'm delighted I have lost the 6.5lbs in just two weeks....BUT, I have found that I still have huge sugar cravings.

From reading this thread, (...even though it has spiralled out of control lately ) I've learnt alot about different views and theories on nutrition (many of them being facts I'm sure).

So...once my exams are over, I am going to attempt this "eating clean" approach that has been spoken of here, firstly, to lose weight, secondly, to just be healthier in general, but also thirdly, to try and eliminate these sugar/junk cravings.
Although I was in WW before a few years back and lost about 1.5 stone...I have since put it all back on. Also, since joining again a few weeks ago I have noticed that it has done nothing to stop me eating "junk"...as it's allowed within my daily allowance of points.

With some boards users help (hopefully!) I'm going to attempt to go it alone, and just eat healthily and cut out the crap stuff.

Sorry that this thread spiralled so out of control, and caused some heated discussions/arguments!

I'll keep you posted on my progress!

crazyy wrote: »

I've been doing weightwatchwrs since last September and got to goal but found maintenance hard, I want to stop counting points as I find it too controlling but I'm not sure where to go from here. I'd be interested in primal or something but it'll be hard to get out of old weightwatcher habits! I think ww works well as a start but knowing foods and proper nutrition is more sustainable. I presume primal works for weight loss yeah? a 1/2 lb a week kind of expectancy?

More usually. My father lost 3lbs in his first week without doing any exercise or measuring portions. A half pound a week would be the minimum you can expect to lose I'd say.

Baby75 wrote: »

I wonder could you combine both, could some one explain primal and eating clean for me please, I think I have a fair idea but just to be sure.

My bad, I asked for the recipe for the marsbarcake its not something I would eat every day or even once a week it was for a special occasion! I actually find now that if I do eat high fat foods or a chocolate, I feel sick it puts me off, so I find I avoid highs fat foods and if I do have a bit of chocolate it's a taste! its just not worth it any more!
we could all ways post recipes for cakes or treats in the cake section! with links if that is allowed

crazyy wrote: »

thanks a mil for the link!! eating fat sounds so daunting but I think it's the way to go

I put a good bit of effort into this post. I tried to cover all the bases in it. Someone posted yesterday on the WW thread that ketosis is dangerous or something like that - completely untrue. It's not dangerous at all and is in fact an entirely natural state for homo sapiens to be in.

You can make incredibly delicious, satisfying, nutritious food using basic ingredients. And when I say satisfying, I really mean it. Prepare for a major reduction in your appetite and the need to snack. You can eat lovely fatty meats from the butcher. You can use nice dips and dressings. You can have creamy deserts. You can have as much herbs, spices, fruits and vegetables as you like. You can fry things aplenty.

You can of course eat high fat/primally/healthily using WW - but really there shouldn't be any need.

Other tips to bear in mind:

1) Try not to drink your calories, so avoid sugared fruit juice and soft drinks (Tesco do great sugar free orange juice; see their 'light choices' range)

2) Do 30 mins cardio every day or every second day to speed things up and improve your mood and health

3) Be patient. It took a while to put the weight on, and it will take time to get it off

4) Take a picture of yourself now with you clothes off and then take new pictures every time you lose 10lbs for comparison sake. Your jaw will drop. Don't focus too much on the scales or weigh-ins.

Lastly, I should say that while I get the whole sense of community thing that WW offers, you can get that too on other websites, such as (for example) www.marksdailyapple.com, which has forums. You'll get it here too in the form of questions and answers.

If you're losing weight on WW, I guarantee you can lose it this way too, minus the guilt complex about points and the need to snack.

Monife

Tremelo wrote: »

I put a good bit of effort into this post. I tried to cover all the bases in it. Someone posted yesterday on the WW thread that ketosis is dangerous or something like that - completely untrue. It's not dangerous at all and is in fact an entirely natural state for homo sapiens to be in.

You can make incredibly delicious, satisfying, nutritious food using basic ingredients. And when I say satisfying, I really mean it. Prepare for a major reduction in your appetite and the need to snack. You can eat lovely fatty meats from the butcher. You can use nice dips and dressings. You can have creamy deserts. You can have as much herbs, spices, fruits and vegetables as you like. You can fry things aplenty.

You can of course eat high fat/primally/healthily using WW - but really there shouldn't be any need.

Other tips to bear in mind:

1) Try not to drink your calories, so avoid sugared fruit juice and soft drinks (Tesco do great sugar free orange juice; see their 'light choices' range)

2) Do 30 mins cardio every day or every second day to speed things up and improve your mood and health

3) Be patient. It took a while to put the weight on, and it will take time to get it off

4) Take a picture of yourself now with you clothes off and then take new pictures every time you lose 10lbs for comparison sake. Your jaw will drop. Don't focus too much on the scales or weigh-ins.

Lastly, I should say that while I get the whole sense of community thing that WW offers, you can get that too on other websites, such as (for example) www.marksdailyapple.com, which has forums. You'll get it here too in the form of questions and answers.

If you're losing weight on WW, I guarantee you can lose it this way too, minus the guilt complex about points and the need to snack.

Great points made there. Really wish I did the above (in bold) when I started and REALLY wish I took my measurements. Like I know I have lost ALOT of inches because of my clothes but don't know exact or even round about figures.

Baby75

Tremelo that was me about keytones, I guess it was drummed in to me that ketones are bad espically when pregnant, I was admitted and put on drips when I had high ketones. I did have gestitional diabetes and was injecting insulin 7 times a day I had to avoid high carb foods and sugar.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001363/

Amtmann

Hi Baby75, ketoacidosis and ketosis are actually two different things:

http://barnson.org/node/1773


http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-79795.html

I'm sure someone with access to scholarly journals can post better links, but they are very different things. No one would advocate being in ketosis 24/7 though. It's something people occassionally enter on purpose.

g'em

This seems to have developed into a Feedback thread as opposed to anything else but that's ok

There's a few things that are jumping out at me from all this discussion, primarily the irony of the dogmatic nature of the anti-WW folks. Now please don't take that as an insult, it's absolutely not, but if you read some of hte anti-WW posts here from a somewhat "outsiders" view it's actually a little amusing to see the parallels between those who are so fervently for and against WW.

<old wise mode>

There is no perfect system and there is no perfect diet. All we can go on is what science currently tells us. There is room for doing what science currently tells us in WW and there's room for doing it in Paleo, and The Zone and Atkins and Primal and whatever other plan du jour the internet and the media is telling us is the next big thing in weight loss.

The only results that should matter are your own. Are you happy with your plan and how the results are coming along? If you are, awesome, feel free to share it with everyone but don't put down the people who disagree - they may not be ready to step outside their own box just yet.

But you know what? I'm not a betting woman but I'd lay a months' wages ont his: every single person here is not going to hold the views they hold right now in the future. I guarantee you will change your mind about some or all of what you believe now

That's the nature of the beast, it's not an exact science, it's far too individual for that. What works for you now may not work in 6 months, or a year, or when your lifestyle changes or you take up a new sport or when you have to save a few quid or when a new set of papers comes out that turns everything you believe in upside down.

<\old wise mode>

There's a touch of elitism and cliqueiness coming into the forum of late, and I don't much like that. It's far too much to ask that everyone is all happy clappy and we all bllindly accept what everyone else is doing - sure that in itself is going against the forum ethos. If someone is doing something silly then it has no place here.

But I'd ask those who've been there, done that, to remember what it's like starting out. It's a bloody minefield with all the contrasting info and hard-to-read papers and people telling you things that go against everything you've been led to believe about food by popular media. Guide, don't dictate. Look at all of the (fantastically honest) accounts of people who tried WW and then ditched it - they had to go through the system to see its flaws.

And to those who are new here or just lurking or really, really want to get involved but are afraid to - just remember that the people who might shout the loudest are also the ones who can help you most, they're the most passionate about this, and they talk a lot becuase they want to help

rocky

g'em wrote: »

But you know what? I'm not a betting woman but I'd lay a months' wages ont his: every single person here is not going to hold the views they hold right now in the future. I guarantee you will change your mind about some or all of what you believe now

Totally agree, and while I understand the Primal/Paleo eating is the diet du jour around here for the most vocal posters, there are many ways to reach the same result. Is low carb healthy long term? I haven't seen any major studies to say it is, nor have I seen any to say it isn't. Only that quite a few people (a higher proportion of women than men for some reason) stall quicker on low carb, and then if they follow the advice of Taubes, they have to reduce veg intake (it's the carbs in them, you see).

People on WW can make so called healthy choices, and no one food can make or break a diet. If your only problem is losing weight, I don't necessarily want to advocate eating a bit of what you want every day, but do experiment and see what best works for you.

A more important part of dieting in my view, than the actual food choices, is the mental aspect. If you can see yourself eating protein and veg consistently for the rest of your life, by all means go for it. For some people this is not really a sustainable choice. Sustainability is key, meaning whatever you can do consistently, repeatedly, will win long term.

I'm not a fan of WW and as I mentioned in another thread around here, I think it's a personal journey for all of us (not only losing weight, but also maintaining a healthy food relationship).

El_Dangeroso

rocky wrote: »

Totally agree, and while I understand the Primal/Paleo eating is the diet du jour around here for the most vocal posters, there are many ways to reach the same result. Is low carb healthy long term? I haven't seen any major studies to say it is, nor have I seen any to say it isn't. Only that quite a few people (a higher proportion of women than men for some reason) stall quicker on low carb, and then if they follow the advice of Taubes, they have to reduce veg intake (it's the carbs in them, you see).

Careful Rocky, you're creating a mighty big straw man there, he might fall over and catch fire.:)

menoscemo

I am not low carb by any means. I eat plenty of carbs (and i would not be against having a slice of that mars Bar Cake with Coffee ), but then again I need to/can get away with eating plenty of carbs as I run 60-70 miles per week. I am also not trying to lose any weight, I lost my 3 stone a few years ago and have maintained my current weight ever since.

What I do think is that people trying to lose weight, specifically those on the WW diet, eat way too many carbs. I know plenty of people 'on a diet' who do little or no excercise and eat way more carbs than I do. I really feel that those people would benefit from lowering their carb intake and upping their fat/protein in order to get the weight lost. When they get to a healthy weight and get into doing a significant amount of excercise (walking a few km's doesn't count), then the can look again at having a few treats.

Roger Marbles

rocky wrote: »

if they follow the advice of Taubes, they have to reduce veg intake (it's the carbs in them, you see).

Where exactly has Taubes said to cut vegetables? I'd love to see the ny article/quote where he recommends precisely this.

If you've actually read any of his published work you will realise he has never said such a thing.

Otherwise this is just misrepresentation of another's point to suits one's own agenda me thinks.

Amtmann

g'em wrote: »

There's a few things that are jumping out at me from all this discussion, primarily the irony of the dogmatic nature of the anti-WW folks. Now please don't take that as an insult, it's absolutely not, but if you read some of hte anti-WW posts here from a somewhat "outsiders" view it's actually a little amusing to see the parallels between those who are so fervently for and against WW.

Well the failure rate of WW allows me to form a very strong opinion on it. But, really, my "dogmatism" begins and ends here:

Tremelo wrote:

I really think that any thread in a healthy eating forum about WW should focus entirely on healthy foods and their points. Sure, I'll personally disagree with the pointing of food, but I won't rain on your parade if the food being talked about is generally healthy.

If people are talking about jellies and - yes! - Mars Bar Cakes, I don't see where this really fits into WW. I could make deep fried battered Mars Bars fit into WW too, but I'd be taking the mickey if I did that. There really is no place for junk food recipes in a WW thread in a *healthy eating forum* and that's my beef with this. I think it belongs in the Cake and Pie forum.

I am not anti-carb either - I have them daily in fact. I have a clear dietary preference, which I advocate here quite loudly. I have never claimed it was the sole solution for weight loss - but I would argue that it is infinitely better than WW. I read almost every post here. I change my views whenever I hear good evidence. But the big fundamentals (e.g. saturated fat is not bad) do not seem at all likely to change.

There is no perfect system and there is no perfect diet.

There certainly are imperfect diets though, g'em, and that's what this thread seems to me to be about.

I was starting to think for a while that I'd taken this thread too seriously. Then I met a friend of a friend last night, a lovely girl of 25, who weighs the same amount of stone. When she saw me she started to cry. Everyone felt very uncomfortable - most of all me! - as it happened suddenly and no one had any idea as to what had set her off. Then she explained: The last time she'd seen me, two years ago, I was 15 stone, and she was shocked at how I look now, at just under 10 stone. She said she'd spent thousands on weigh loss programmes over the years, including WW repeatedly. She NEVER speaks to anyone about her weight normally; but last night she spoke to me about it VERY honestly. She told me how she feels, emotionally, being fat. I have to say it really affected me. If this girl doesn't change her ways, she will likely die long before her time. I spoke with her for almost two hours as an equal, as someone who has been there, as a man who would likely be dead by age 40 if I didn't change my ways.

The above is an extreme example, but it actually happened to me last night. And to be honest, it reaffirmed my general stance on this thread. Yes, I went too far here in places, but I make no apologies for drawing attention to some of the problems in the WW thread (I just shouldn't have done it so rudely). People get passionate here about weight loss because, let's be brutally honest here - it can be a matter of life or death for many people in the world today.

Anyway, many thanks to those who have sent me PMs - I'll be getting back to you as soon as I can. In the meantime, I'm going on sabbatical from this forum for a wee while.

Frogdog

Tremelo, come back soon, I enjoy reading your posts. We need knowledgable posters like you who have a knack of clearly expressing the do's and don'ts of nutrition to any newbie or lurker looking for advice.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Eating fat does not equal gaining fat!!!!

rocky

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Careful Rocky, you're creating a mighty big straw man there, he might fall over and catch fire.:)

Bringing up Taubes in the discussion? well you know I love him

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Where exactly has Taubes said to cut vegetables? I'd love to see the ny article/quote where he recommends precisely this.

If you've actually read any of his published work you will realise he has never said such a thing.

Otherwise this is just misrepresentation of another's point to suits one's own agenda me thinks.

In his Jimmy Moore interview he said that even the carbs in green leafy vegetables can be problematic for some people (those who stall on low-carb at 20 pounds or more before reaching goal weight)

whiteandlight

I've spent a while reading through this thread and find it very interesting. I am
Past user of boards and the food diary section in particular but left, primarily due to work and family reasons. However when I initially started following these boards I almost never came back due to the tone and attitude of many posters. It's funny to come back three years later and find re same thing.

Having said that I agree with gem and other posters, there will always be differences of opinion on boards such as these.

I have a suggestion however. There's a lot of mentions of the chat/banter etc going on on the Ww sticky. As someone who has followed Ww in the last I found it a big help motivation wise. This time around I've been to a nutritionist, I know what I need to do but motivation is key and I know I will miss that thread for that. I'm sure many of the posters on here, particularly those trying to losing weight have moments where it all seems pointless and a horrible day at work is encouraging you to binge/eat food you know is wrong for you.

I think a positive addition to the forum would be a thread for motivation/ranting/save me from myself type of idea where anyone, regardless of diet can blow steam and look for support, not so much support about what to eat (we all have different opinions on that lol) but encouragement that the struggle is worthwhile.

This is a personal preference of mine because I am an emotional eater with a tendency to binge eat. I am working through the 'why I eat' and am improving but there are times I could do with support and where better than from the knowledgeable people on a board like this!

Anyways just a suggestion, it might just be me that'd be interested lol

Davei141

I think a positive addition to the forum would be a thread for motivation/ranting/save me from myself type of idea where anyone, regardless of diet can blow steam and look for support, not so much support about what to eat (we all have different opinions on that lol) but encouragement that the struggle is worthwhile.

This is a personal preference of mine because I am an emotional eater with a tendency to binge eat. I am working through the 'why I eat' and am improving but there are times I could do with support and where better than from the knowledgeable people on a board like this!

I understand where you are coming from but I think this would be a very bad idea. It would be more of a hindrance to you in the long term if you are trying to get away from being an emotional eater. It might make somebody feel better in the short term but it's really not good for breaking that emotion/food connection.

Orla K

Davei141 wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from but I think this would be a very bad idea. It would be more of a hindrance to you in the long term if you are trying to get away from being an emotional eater. It might make somebody feel better in the short term but it's really not good for breaking that emotion/food connection.

+1
As an emotional eater with depression, I think it's a bad idea. Your the only one that can properly support yourself in this area. I think it's good to say 'I fúcked up' but only you can say what happened to make you eat that way and recognise the triggers that caused you to binge.

I think alot of people would atomaticly blame the triggers first but you can't control triggers only your reaction to them. I think it's far too much of personal learning kind of thing to inclued that many other people.

I do think it's a good idea to say that you messed up(out loud, to make it more real) and then think to yourself why, what were you thinking/feeling and find what was going on to be able to recognise it the next time and avoid emotional eating.


It looks like some of the CBT did sink in!

El_Dangeroso

Davei141 wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from but I think this would be a very bad idea. It would be more of a hindrance to you in the long term if you are trying to get away from being an emotional eater. It might make somebody feel better in the short term but it's really not good for breaking that emotion/food connection.

Totally agreed, was on a forum that had tonnes of 'oops!' threads. The same faces came back again and again..and again. It was almost like posting in the thread was absolution for them. Much better to keep it to yourself, don't torture or chastise yourself just reflect. Shrug your shoulders and move on, you're human. The more you dwell on any failure the more likely you are to repeat it.

Keep praising yourself for the times you do well and the times you do less well become more infrequent over time.

whiteandlight

Fair enough that's your opinion. I still think it would be beneficial to those who are struggling and I did not mean it to be an 'oops' thread nor did I say that. I just feel that motivation is a major part of weight management and support is nice on the road. Personally I don't follow this forum anymore, just caught this thread this morning so I'll keep my nose out

Davei141

But if your motivation doesn't come from within can you really succeed long term? ( I mean that with good intentions) I think its important to teach yourself you can do this, you don't need anyone else. Once that is realised (along with being armed with decent knowledge of nutrition) it really doesn't have to be a struggle.

Orla K

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Fair enough that's your opinion. I still think it would be beneficial to those who are struggling and I did not mean it to be an 'oops' thread nor did I say that. I just feel that motivation is a major part of weight management and support is nice on the road. Personally I don't follow this forum anymore, just caught this thread this morning so I'll keep my nose out

You didn't say that it would be but when I was thinking about the thread I thought that a large number of the posts would be where people slipped up and looking to others to get them back on track, I just think that only you can properly motivate yourself. I do think it's partly a good idea but I'd be more inclined to have it more as a reference thread on how to motivate yourself and break bad eating habits. If that was the case I'd dig out my CBT books and see if I could contribute.

gronja

I am a big Weight Watchers fan as it's designed to work. What doesn't work is when you do an a la carte version of it. The new propoints version is much more balanced than before plus fruit is free. I used to feel a bit hard done by when I had to calculate fruit as part of my daily allowance.

It's really up to you at the end of the day, do you think you are disciplined enough to do it alone? I personally can't do it alone, I enjoy the comaradarie at the meetings and all the tips along the way. I lost over 2 1/2 stone and decided I knew it all and could do it on my own. I put back on a stone and a half, so I'm back with a vengence. The difference this time is that I have and will attend all the meetings and plan to do so when I reach my goal.

Remember with WW it's a lifestyle change and not a diet. If it's that important to you, you'll give it your focus and attention. You get what you put into it is what I'm trying to say.

Hope you do great with whatever option you choose.

titanium feather

My own 2c ...

I tried WW four times in the past. I was never obese, but had maybe 2 stone to lose at my heaviest.

Each time, I lost weight on the plan, when I stuck to it. I never felt healthy though, I always felt a bit stodgy and sluggish.

The problem is, while of course it's entirely possible to eat healthily and stay within your points allowance, it's all too easy to let this go a bit when life gets busy. The problem is, there are too many "cheats", too many nutritionally void foods which are allowed (even encouraged) by WW. So you can stay within your points, you can even continue to lose weight - but you're not doing yourself or your body any favours long-term.

It encourages a terrible relationship with food. You can never let go and fully, guiltlessly, enjoy a nice meal out with friends, without worrying about what you're eating. You end up making bad food choices - I'd need a quick energy boost when working late, and if all my points were gone I'd end up having a zero-points can of Diet Coke rather than a high-points healthy energy-boosting snack. You end up eating all low-fat products rather than the (generally) much healthier, more natural full-fat versions - and, worst of all, you feel like you're doing well by doing so. Don't feel like doing your run? - fine, just leave the yolks out of the eggs you're cooking for breakfast to "make up" for it.

I eventually became sick of handing over money to an organisation which claimed to have done all the hard work and research into diet and nutrition for me. Even most die-hard WW followers admit that the WW packaged meals are absolute muck - why trust the "research" carried out by an organisation which produces and promotes this crappy food? Even just from this, isn't it obvious that they don't have your health and best interests at heart?

gronja wrote: »

Remember with WW it's a lifestyle change and not a diet. If it's that important to you, you'll give it your focus and attention.

But surely, if weightloss is that important to you, it's worth putting your focus and attention towards educating yourself as to what foods are good for your new "lifestyle"? Instead of blindly trusting points worked out by a commercial profit-making entity (which would no longer continue to be profitable if the plan actually worked long-term!) I completely agree that diets are a terrible idea for weightloss - any changes you implement need to be permanent. But counting points for the rest of your life, right into old age - is that something you really want? It's impractical and not affordable for most. And it's completely unnecessary.

I know so many people who lost lots and lots of weight with WW, even got to their goal weight. I don't know a single person who kept that weight off. That's because they get to goal, feel fantastic, so proud of themselves for being in control and learning to eat "healthily" - but they haven't. They've been blindly following guidelines set out by someone else without ever educating themselves on what's good food and what isn't. So, despite the best of intentions, they end up right back where they started ... but hey, "WW worked for me before, it'll work for me again, I just need to stick to it after I lose the weight this time." Never happens, nor should it. It's just not a sustainable long-term eating plan.

This forum is fantastic for getting ideas for proper, long-term, healthy eating - without faddy diets, or keeping track of points. It's all about choosing the right foods, keeping an eye on your portions, and getting out to do some more exercise. There's plenty of books and websites out there - but it's important to look at them critically, and research all claims yourself - don't just take them at face value.

And yes it's trial and error, and yes it will take time and effort. But I guarantee you, if you take the hour a week you spend in your meeting to properly research diet and nutrition, and if you take the ten minutes you spend a day filling in your tracker to instead plan out a wholesome nutritious meal for the following day, you'll end up feeling much healthier while still continuing to lose weight. Best thing is - it's free!

Flurry

Just a quick update as I was the person who started this thread (....sorry!)

I decided to start following the primal "diet".
I cut out all junk, no sugar, and all rubbish carbs.

My meals all changed, no bread, pasta, noodles etc. Instead I have been having all veg, meat and good (yummy!) fats.

In the first 7 days I lost a whopping........6 lbs!

Since then I have been away a lot where avoiding carbs has been impossible. When I am away I do come home a couple of pounds heavier, and feel really unhealthy and bloated from eating bread etc, but once I start eating primal again it just drops right off.

I'll keep you all posted on how it goes over the next few weeks.