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Weight watchers....to join, or go it alone?

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    #92
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Why have four packets of Snax when you can just pig out on "Mars Bar Cake"? A surefire way to cultivate future sugar cravings - but well within the points, so no worries.

    I'm not a fan of WW at all and have been reading this thread with interest but posting a recipe from the WW thread in this way seems a very bitchy move.

    Many people who eat healthily the vast majority of the time have the occasional blow-out.

    Poor form.


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    #93
    LORNLAKES22
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭LORNLAKES22


    I agree, its all very well to criticise organisations such as WW and SW and US, however they all serve a purpose and the proof is they do work - people who follow the programmes - lose weight - which is why they join in the first place however, what happens is that we forget that if we return to our previous eating habits we will gain the weight again - people who successfully maintain their weight loss and stay at a healthy weight - have managed to get over the idea that a "diet" is a short term solution - its for ever !!! its just a name for the way we eat - get a hold of the "food doctor" Ian Marbers books on diets and nutrition - ( I know somebody else who is making money out of it -) but there is some excellent information that makes sense and is ideal for anyone who wants to go it alone . I personally am back at WW just for the discipline of the Weigh Ins - stops me hopping on the scale every other day. I also notice from meetings that a lot of people are really uneducated about food and eat very badly ie. lots of ready meals, processed foods etc. - Its all very well for those of us who probably eat pretty well anyway and are overweight due more to quantity rather than quality of food. Guess what it still possible to put on weight with a healthy diet !!


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    #94
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Monife wrote: »
    Your point?

    My point is so obvious that I'm astonished you have to ask what it is.
    Are you telling me you have never had a bar of chocolate, a slice of cake or a packet of crisps?

    Sure I did, all the time - when I was fat. And the more of them that I had, the more often I tended to want to eat them. A milky way here, a mini mars bar there, or a few crisps never did anyone any harm. Not. If you eat properly 90% of the time, you will NOT want these things anymore, because you simply won't crave them. You won't need them. You won't think about them. They become unimportant to you. The very fact that someone wants a Mars Bar Cake is a sign that they have not beaten their sugar addiction (which is what made them fat to begin with), and that they are unlikely to beat it any time soon.
    No one can be a perfect eater all the time. I don't see you linking to the WW thread when there are discussions about not snacking, or eating healthy foods and using your points wisely on healthy, nutritious food and not on junk/snacks.

    Your idea of perfect is likely flawed. I could link to lots of ridiculous posts in that thread - one where it's recommended to weigh healthy food to the gramme, one where someone had to drink several pints of water before leaving the house so that s/he wouldn't eat while in town, all manner of tragedy really. There are of course many good posts in the megathread. But do not underestimate the damage a Mars Bar cake can do to one week's good work. It's not the Mars Bar Cake alone - it's what it does to the blood, and it's its cumulative contribution the maintenance of a pre-existing sugar craving that does the damage in the long term.


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    #95
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Sure I did, all the time - when I was fat. And the more of them that I had, the more often I tended to want to eat them. A milky way here, a mini mars bar there, or a few crisps never did anyone any harm. Not. If you eat properly 90% of the time, you will NOT want these things anymore, because you simply won't crave them. You won't need them. You won't think about them. They become unimportant to you. The very fact that someone wants a Mars Bar Cake is a sign that they have not beaten their sugar addiction (which is what made them fat to begin with), and that they are unlikely to beat it any time soon.

    This isn't true for me.

    I manage to not crave cans of cokes after having the occasional one (maybe 2 or 3 per month), ditto weekend dessert.

    Maybe YOU have that problem, don't assume everyone else does.

    And again, I'm not into WW so this isn't defensiveness on my part.

    I just think it's lame to link to another separate thread like that.


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    #96
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    This isn't true for me.

    I manage to not crave cans of cokes after having the occasional one (maybe 2 or 3 per month), ditto weekend dessert.

    Maybe YOU have that problem, don't assume everyone else does.

    And again, I'm not into WW so this isn't defensiveness on my part.

    I just think it's lame to link to another separate thread like that.

    Tara I frankly don't care about you think is or isn't lame. This thread is about why WW fails the vast majority of its clients. That post was a perfect example of where so many go wrong, and as such it fits perfectly into the spirit of this thread. Biologically, the effects of sugar in the diet are well known, so it's not just me actually. It's the standard biological response to sugary food intakes.


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    #97
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Tara I frankly don't care what about you think is or isn't lame.

    Yup, that's not surprising.

    I would have thought linking to another thread bitchily like that would be against the rules but whatever!

    And again, I repeat, I manage to eat high sugar things in small doses with no problems so meh, it's not true of everyone. I didn't say everyone, I said some. Whatchagonnado?


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    #98
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    Yup, that's not surprising.

    I would have thought linking to another thread bitchily like that would be against the rules but whatever!

    Why on earth would referencing posts on a similar topic within the same forum be against the rules? I do have a fairly good idea of what the rules on this site happen to be, you know.
    And again, I repeat, I manage to eat high sugar things in small doses with no problems so meh, it's not true of everyone. Whatchagonnado

    Are you obese? If not, it's likely that you eat well most of the time and don't have the issues that obese people have. We are looking at trends in a general population here, not at you specifically.


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    #99
    lachin
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭lachin


    Only 1 person here doing the bithching as far as I can see.

    Weight watchers are always overly defensive of their flawed plan


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    #100
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Why on earth would referencing posts on a similar topic within the same forum be against the rules? I do have a fairly good idea of what the rules on this site happen to be, you know.

    That thread is for WW users to post and support each other, free of criticism whatever anyone else thinks of the programme. It's not there for you to use to lambast WW. You made some really good posts in this thread so it was a shame to see you stoop to such a level.
    Are you obese? If not, it's likely that you eat well most of the time and don't have the issues that obese people have. We are looking at trends in a general population here, not at you specifically.

    I've lost two stone sensibly this year, not using any plan, just myself and my own brain. I was nudging into the obese category at the start, yes. So, I believe I do have some clue what I'm talking about.
    lachin wrote: »
    Only 1 person here doing the bithching as far as I can see.

    Weight watchers are always overly defensive of their flawed plan

    I don't do WW and am not a fan it personally.


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    #101
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    The worst I read was one morning a poster said they were proud of themselves beacuse they were starving one morning and opted for a second bowl of Special K instead of having sausages and rashers :rolleyes:.
    She then went on to say that later that morning when in the shop she chose to have two croissants instead of a snickers.

    Obviously she got a load of thanks from people who said 'OMG that's great, you should be proud of yourself'.

    I didn't have the heart to go on and say that Sausages and rashers would have been a better breakfast than a double portion of Special K and that eating two croissants was probably worse than a Snickers.

    What all this proves is that WW'ers generally have no idea about good nutrition and WW itself obviously does nothing to educate it's clients. I have no doubt this is done purposely so as to doom ww'ers to failure in order to make more money. Rememeber WW is a huge multinational cooperation, just like Mcdonalds, CocaCola or Microsoft. It's one and only goal is to make money, so what better way than to have it's clients come back again, again and again?


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    #102
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    That thread is for WW users to post and support each other

    Correct.
    free of criticism whatever anyone else thinks of the programme

    Incorrect. See the OP. And in any case, I didn't post in that thread.
    It's not there for you to use to lambast WW.

    You do not get to decide what the rest of the community can and cannot post, nor is it up to you to set the agenda. If you have a problem, I respectfully suggest that you report the post and let the local mods do their jobs.
    I've lost two stone sensibly this year, not using any plan, just myself and my own brain. I was nudging into the obese category at the start, yes. So, I believe I do have some clue what I'm talking about.

    I'll see your two and raise you five. Me, I get my info round these parts from the likes of El Dangeroso, Transform, EileenG and Metamorphosis - people who have quite a bit more than "some clue" about various aspects of nutrition.


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    #103
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    I'm not a fan of WW at all and have been reading this thread with interest but posting a recipe from the WW thread in this way seems a very bitchy move.

    Many people who eat healthily the vast majority of the time have the occasional blow-out.

    Poor form.

    If you actually read the WW thread it is not just 'the occasional Blow out', it is full of people making bad food choices day after day after day and thinking they are healthy food choices. No-one dare go into the thread and correct them for fear of lynching. I really do not know what place a WW thread has in a forum which is supposed to be promoting a healthy diet and Nutrition TBH.


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    #104
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Tremelo wrote: »
    You do not get to decide what the rest of the community can and cannot post, nor is it up to you to set the agenda. If you have a problem, I respectfully suggest that you report the post and let the local mods do their jobs.

    I can criticise you though, and if you don't like MY posts, report them. And if a mod doesn't like my posts, I'm sure they'll let me know.
    I'll see your two and raise you five.

    The fact that you have lost more weight than me doesn't change the fact that I can have occasional sugary items. At all. You and I are obviously different. ;) YOU maybe can't have sugar without going overboard. That's not true of everyone, even people who used to be overweight.
    menoscemo wrote: »
    If you actually read the WW thread it is not just 'the occasional Blow out', it is full of people making bad food choices day after day after day and thinking they are healthy food choices. No-one dare go into the thread and correct them for fear of lynching. I really do not know what place a WW thread has in a forum which is supposed to be promoting a healthy diet and Nutrition TBH.

    Like I said, I'm not a WW fan. Why don't you get onto the mods about it being moved if you feel it doesn't fit the ethos of the forum?


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    #105
    Davei141
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭Davei141


    I remember when the new Propoints thread started, the majority of things pointed were absolute junk. Tremelo is just highlighting the environment is not a good one for keeping the weight off at all. If somebody tells me they wan't to lose weight ill tell them to cut out all processed food/sweets and processed carbs for 2 weeks. Don't even touch a square of Dairy milk for them two weeks or a slice of bread. Doing it is important for a number of reasons, firstly it stops your sugar cravings, secondly it teaches you that you can do it for 2 weeks, why not 6? Your confidence in your own self control goes way up etc.

    If you are nibbling at a curly wurly every day or a mars bar cake no matter how small a portion you won't have any discipline not to eat that stuff when your hungry after a stressful day/Tired/Hungover/drunk or out and about. Its about breaking bad habits and teaching the person they can bloody well go without that stuff for the rest of their lives, but enjoying it occasionally can be still be done. But done without NEEDING it.

    There are a lot of worrying attitudes to food in the WWer thread everything ate has a huge hold over them emotionally. People worrying constantly about what food they had out and about, being distraught upon learning something is high in calories/points. Deciding whether to drink water or the day of the weigh in to achieve a better result? Thats only fooling oneself. Throw the scales in the bin and start using clothes/ the mirror and measuring tape. You might think weighing in once a week keeps you on track but its a hindrance, it keeps you constantly thinkin about food and obsessing over it.


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    #106
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    Davei141 wrote: »
    Its about breaking bad habits and teaching the person they can bloody well go without that stuff for the rest of their lives, but enjoying it occasionally can be still be done. But done without NEEDING it.

    I agree with this. This is what I do.

    I never eat crisps now. I never want them. They wreck the inside of my mouth.

    But sometimes I like cola or dessert. And having them only sometimes is sufficient. I don't start binging on sugary stuff just because I have high sugar things sometimes.


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    #107
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Davei141 wrote: »
    People worrying constantly about what food they had out and about, being distraught upon learning something is high in calories/points. Deciding whether to drink water or the day of the weigh in to achieve a better result? Thats only fooling oneself.

    That's exactly right, and people even try to fool the WW Points sytem.
    have a look at this conversation fresh from the WW thread, sums the whole thing up perfectly:
    GT_TDI_150 wrote: »
    quick Q:

    I have light mayo with alot of my salads, and I have it pointed @ 1PP/tbsp.
    Relish is 1PP/20grm, so 2PP for a tbsp roughly.

    WouldI be better off/healtier if I were to use the relish instead of the light mayo or is it much of a muchness?

    Ta
    Lady Lainy wrote: »
    would you try extra light mayo....30g extra light mayo is 1pp
    so anything under 30g is technically 0pp and use some relish to jazz up the flavour,
    and you have to go over 70g of extra light to count it as 2pp

    aldi bramwells extra light mayo is quite nice, way nicer than helmans lighter than light mayo
    aspie mum wrote: »
    I use the aldi country relish it is only 10 pp for the whole jar and probably better then mayo as mayo is made with oils and eggs and relish is made with tomatoes onion and spices both have preserativites so that would balance out the other


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    #108
    Davei141
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭Davei141


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    I agree with this. This is what I do.

    I never eat crisps now. I never want them. They wreck the inside of my mouth.

    But sometimes I like cola or dessert. And having them only sometimes is sufficient. I don't start binging on sugary stuff just because I have high sugar things sometimes.

    Yeah i hear you, and agree completely. You could go weeks without cola or dessert, but i would wager a lot of WWers couldn't do that, because they haven't quite done the cold turkey on it due to a lot of the diets being quite high in hidden sugars and not so hidden ones.


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    #109
    LORNLAKES22
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭LORNLAKES22


    Sorry , I am currently in WWs and I dont drink Cola, eat crisps or binge on food one way or the other - I attribute my weight gain , bigger portions than I needed and not doing enough exercise - oh and I enjoy a glass or two of wine - I know plenty about healthy eating and nutrition, reading through these last few posts all I can see is individuals knocking WWs and the people who are currently members - and yes I think it is bitchy to pick up a thread and use it in a condescending way to illustrate your own point.
    WW is a global enterprise yes, but the information they provide with regard to eating promotes healthy eating, exercise, cooking from scratch etc all the same principles that most diet/exercise books and organisations promote. How the individual chooses to interpret the information given is obviously up to them and yes people are obsessive when they are trying to lose weight, I am sure all of you who managed to lose weight were very conscious of what you were eating at the time and its now that you have continued the actions that brought you to a healthy weight that you can relax, but if you stopped - you would gain weight again and as you get older it does get more difficult to maintain your ideal weight


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    #110
    PocketWatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭PocketWatch


    LORNLAKES22 wrote: »
    WW is a global enterprise yes, but the information they provide with regard to eating promotes healthy eating, exercise, cooking from scratch etc all the same principles that most diet/exercise books and organisations promote.

    Then why do they sell processed frozen meals and high sugar processed 'low fat' options?

    I completely agree with Tremelo & whoever else was making the points against WW. The success (or should I say failure) rates speak for themselves.


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    #111
    time42play
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭time42play


    Davei141 wrote: »
    I remember when the new Propoints thread started, the majority of things pointed were absolute junk.

    There are a lot of worrying attitudes to food in the WWer thread everything ate has a huge hold over them emotionally. People worrying constantly about what food they had out and about, being distraught upon learning something is high in calories/points. Deciding whether to drink water or the day of the weigh in to achieve a better result? Thats only fooling oneself. Throw the scales in the bin and start using clothes/ the mirror and measuring tape. You might think weighing in once a week keeps you on track but its a hindrance, it keeps you constantly thinkin about food and obsessing over it.

    I’ve seen all the games, and played many of them myself. There were members in the depth of winter getting weighed in shorts & tshirt because suitable clothes would add weight. Easily half the women in the meeting brought lightweight slippers to be weighed in because their shoes were too heavy. In one of my meetings (in my Leader days) a woman came in and stripped down to her swimsuit & flipflops to get on the scales!! I was even asked to deduct weight once because it was raining out and surely her wet clothes and hair meant that the scales read too high. Lots of eating and drinking water commenced once the weighing was over.

    Weight Watcher used to advertise itself on the basis that you can still eat any food you like. That’s what attracts a lot of people to it, and I think that’s why the pointing of these “treat” foods is so prevalent. They want to lose weight but they don't want to change the majority of foods they eat. If I could eat breads, pasta, etc AND lose/maintain a healthy weight I would still be there. But I'm one of the people who can't handle those foods and unfortunately it's taken me a long time to admit it.

    There is an emotional component to a lot of people's weight problems and that's why food IS such an emotional issue. The weigh-in is the focus and I've seen more than one person so disappointed they walked out and bought a box of chocolates when they didn't see the results they "deserved". As much as a leader will try and focus on things like exercise and eating "healthy" (in the WW definition) a lot of members are most interested in what the scale says.

    For the 10% that can lose AND maintain, it's wonderful. For the others, if they can lose weight with the plan, they'll need to look elsewhere for maintenance.


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    #112
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    time42play wrote: »
    The weigh-in is the focus and I've seen more than one person so disappointed they walked out and bought a box of chocolates when they didn't see the results they "deserved".

    Or going by the thread, people "treating" themselves to a takeaway or whatever after weigh-in because they did well that week. :(


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    #113
    GT_TDI_150
    Registered Users Posts: 10,917 ✭✭✭✭GT_TDI_150


    menoscemo wrote: »
    That's exactly right, and people even try to fool the WW Points sytem.
    have a look at this conversation fresh from the WW thread, sums the whole thing up perfectly:

    Firstly, I'm not trying to fool the WW system, ....

    I didnt think that light mayo was the best thing to eat with my salad, personally thought that relish might be a better option and posted to get second opinion/confirmation of this - which is highlighted by the fact that I ask is it healtier!?

    Does it make me ignorant to food if i prefer some sort of flavoring on my salad? I'm making healthy choices by eating salads, ... i just cant stomach plain salads without any dressing. I cancel the dressing out by cutting back some where else.

    on the one hand you claim to want to educate/help people on the otherhand on the otherhand you throw peoples comments around to knock the system they are using to try gain control of their eating habits.


    :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


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    #114
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    @ GT, you opened a thread about healthy eating on the main forum asking to be educated and we invited you to ask any questions you wanted. I would have thought you would ask such questions in that thread? Why ask in the WW thread if you want tips on healthy eating? It's like asking Leo Messi for a tennis lesson when Roger Federer is offering to give you one.

    As you see when you asked in the WW forum all you got was tips on how many points light mayo was vs Relish!! This is the point I am trying to make. Healthy eating has nothing to do with How Many WW points something is, and that's the mentality you have to get away from.

    FWIW I wouldn't be against you having a bit of Mayo with your salad if the ingredients in the mayo were ok. And by the way, I wouldn't be necessarily choosing the low fat mayo either.


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    #115
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Folks I've had a number of PMd and reported posts about this thread so I'm closing it temporarily until I've reviewed it completely, bare with me.


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    #116
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Discussing weight loss and the ways to go about it is always going to be a rather spirited topic, primarily because this isn't just some new project that people are embarking on, it's their lives, their health, their emotions their well being. I can completely understand the increasing defensiveness on both sides of the camp here.

    I have to make a few points clear though.

    1. Pulling posts from other threads with the explicit purpose of poking fun at them is incredibly uncool.

    2. Outside of the forum they Moderate Mods are just posters, they are held to the same rules and regulations as anyone else. To those who are giving out that a Mod should "know better" well that doesn't apply because unless they have "Nutrition and Diet" on their forum list in here they're just the same as you.

    3. If you don't agree with a weight-loss plan there's a very fine line between constructive criticism and condescending/ patronising discussion. You can argue against a plan but at the end of the day if people don't want to listen they won't. Bullying people into your point of view will only create ill-will amongst posters.

    4. This forum is first and foremost about healthy eating. It doesn't matter what plan is being discussed if the method by which the goals are reached are unhealthy, disordered or particularly worrisome then we will have no choice but to delete posts and possibly ban certain topics.

    5. The WeightWatchers thread is tolerated by the Mods, not supported by them. It's there simply by virtue of the volume of posters who use it, not because it's deemed an inherently healthy way to eat. It is quite possible to eat welll using the WW system but it now looks like a full review will have to be done of the WW thread and if it shows signs of supporting unhealthy behaviours on the part of its users then we will have no choice but to shut it down and ban WW as a topic.

    I'm all for animated and enthusiastic discussion about nutrition and diet topics, but folks you have to remember that there is no perfect way to go about it. There is however a blatantly unhealthy way to go about it and if there is strong evidence to suggest that this forum is starting to support that then this will have to be addressed.

    I'm afraid this is something that I'll have to talk about with the other Mods and isn't quite over just yet. I'll re-open it for now though and welcome all - civil - discussion.


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    #117
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    g'em wrote: »
    1. Pulling posts from other threads with the explicit purpose of poking fun at them is incredibly uncool.

    I'd like to apologise to anyone who was offended by my citing of the mars bar post. I genuinely meant well, but I see now I was quite tactless in my approach. In trying to provide evidence to support my case, I got a bit carried away. Once again, sorry. Nothing personal was intended.


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    #118
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    I also apologise for quoting the post regarding Mayo/relish.
    As I said afterwards, it just annoyed me that GT had come on the main forum asking for advice and then had kind of left his thread alone depsite being offered free advice. I thought we had maybe stirred the seeds of healthy eating in another poster...

    I pretty much realised I shouldn't have posted what I did straight away and that it comes across pretty condescending, but I had already left work and gone for a run. By the time I got back to the computer it was obviously too late.

    Anyways sorry again. Hopefully we haven't scared WW'ers away from the main forum. I think there is a lot to be learned and this forum has certainly educated me loads in the last few years.


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    #119
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    I've just read back about three or four pages on the WW thread and frankly I'm absolutely disgusted at what I've seen. The open abuse and badmouthing about other posters is completely over the mark. I'm actually embarassed to have the thread in this forum right now.

    Given what I said above about this being an emotive topic I'm going to give people time to calm down and strongly suggest that posters in the WW review their posts from yesterday and today and edit your posts as you see fit.

    There is zero tolerance towards personal abuse or name calling of other boards members.


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    #120
    TaraFoxglove
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TaraFoxglove


    I didn't see anyone being specifically named in that thread and the responses in that thread were as a result of the behaviour of posters in THIS thread so was kinda provoked. I don't think that thread was any worse than this one, TBH.


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    #121
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    TaraFoxglove wrote: »
    I didn't see anyone being specifically named in that thread and the responses in that thread were as a result of the behaviour of posters in THIS thread so was kinda provoked. I don't think that thread was any worse than this one, TBH.
    "they started it" is not a valid excuse. If you don't like something that's being said you report it, you don't take matters into your own hands. And while names were not explicitly given a galloping horse with conjunctivitis would still have know who was being discussed.

    I want to give everyone here the fairest outcome possible and I commend everyone who has said their sorries, but the atmosphere in the thread over the last couple of pages is pure bitchy and has no place on what is supposed to be a thread about support.

    Like I said I understand completely why heckled were raised and defensiveness went through the roof, but it doesn't give anyone license to badmouth others.


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