Navan Rail Line

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774460#Comment_121774460

Land ownership can be quite a fluid concept, over the long term at least. Unless you continue to exercise your ownership, you can lose it. The only way to fully determine ownership here would be to test it in the courts.

If someone can show that they have had possession of the land and displayed traits of ownership (for example using it in some way) for a substantial period of time, the courts could find in favour of them, even if no sale has taken place. Particularly if CIÉ can't show that they have used the land in any way for several decades. The "new owner" may also have subsequently sold the land and that been registered, then it becomes more difficult.

CIÉ are unlikely to take it to the courts unless they want to maintain the presence of doing something for several years without any danger of actually having to do something. They would have to challenge all other potential owners along the route which would take a long time and they are bound to lose on some, if not many.

If they want to actually build something, they'll just CPO whatever they want. In that case they should look for another route which minimises contentious issues like CPOing houses, splitting farms, etc. A new route could also see trains serve passengers on the way to/from Navan, unlike shadowing the old route.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776541#Comment_121776541

A new route has other engineering challenges. The old alignment exists because it was one of the best routes of its time. Everything from gradient to curves were considered.

The main advantage of pursuing the old alignment is that very little of this work needs redone - you just take advantage of the alignment work that was done before.

Coming up with a new rail alignment is a non-trivial task. It is not as simple as crayons on paper.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776541#Comment_121776541

Just to state again, I'm not strongly for or against any particular alignment, but I disagree with your comment.

The majority of the old alignment is still there. A new alignment would require significantly higher level of CPO, especially if the aim is to get closer to town centres such as Dunshaughlin. A new alignment is also going to split far more farms.

A new alignment is the best idea but only in an ideal world. The costs would spiral and the project would take significantly longer to deliver. I just don't see it happening.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776820#Comment_121776820

But the claim that the old alignment means that very little of this work needs redone is simply not true. There is very little alignment work done before to take advantage of. This is clear from Google Maps that significant sections no longer exist and Grandeeod has attested to that.

Deviation will be required around Drumree and Kilmessan given the level of development on or immediately adjacent to the old alignment. There are many houses either side of the M3 culvert so lots of opposition. There are houses on the southern approach to the Boyne bridge. Parts of the former alignment are now just open fields with no evidence that a railway ever existed there, you'll have the IFA fighting against splitting fields. Diverting around some or all of these could lead to significant offline sections.

There engineering challenges too. A sewer pipe exists under the alignment around Dunsany. Crossing the link road from M3 J8 into Navan will be difficult and extremely expensive given the high of the embankments either side of the road. It remains to be seen if the culvert is usable or if a diverted alignment could actually use it. These can be overcome but add to the cost.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777000#Comment_121777000

You can be sure the state have to CPO any sections of the old alignment which anybody claims ownership of, it won't be worth the years to court battles to assert ownership which they could well lose. Every adjacent land owner will get in on it. Between that and having to deviate at certain locations (particularly around Kilmessan and around the M3 crossing), they'll be CPOing practically everything anyway. A new alignment would have to largely follow the M3.

L1011

I'm certain the alignment was sold so they need to CPO the lot.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774748#Comment_121774748

Sorry no, the claim was that "From a standing start you are looking at 7 years to go from concept to open for service". Then you started adding things which would have to happen during the stages outlined in the timeline but claiming they are outside of the timeline. The 7 years just isn't realistic, I even referenced a current project with a much lower scope of works which will take the 2.5 years for construction which was stated for rebuilding the Navan line from scratch.

I've heard it all before, the reopening of these lines is always just around the corner. Don't bother with double-tracking existing operational lines, will just reopening old lines and rob Peter to pay Paul with the existing limited capacity. But you keep fighting the good fight, it'll be worth it eventually.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777634#Comment_121777634

the standing start was after all of the challenges in relation to an alinement were dealt with and the alinement was ready for reconstruction.

the poster assumed we already knew that the alinement and it's issues whether it be use of the old one or a new one saught, would have to be sorted first.