Navan Rail Line

I told ya

I don't know.

But what I do know is that there are people being well paid to deal with these issues and obstacles.

CatInABox

On the existing line not serving much population, one could very easily see that as a positive. Plenty of room for Strategic Development Zones along the line, you could have three or four new towns of 10,000 people or so.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122812879#Comment_122812879

The frequency for Dunboyne branch under DART+W is 4 tph. If extended to Navan and Ashbourne on 2 branches, could you not just send 2 to each destination?

Luas should not be extended to such a distant destination. That is the job of infrequent stop heavy rail, or failing that the bus.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122813628#Comment_122813628

I’d say the bus gets stuck in city traffic at rush hour. But the train wouldn’t.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821497#Comment_122821497

This is Irish Rail. Congestion is their number one excuse.

spacetweek

From the article :

The project will start in early stages

…He noted that it seems wasteful that the project has to start from scratch.

But they chose a preferred route, right? What happened to that?

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821497#Comment_122821497

They could also operate more than 4tph on the branch, with the extra services being shuttle services (assuming 4tph is without shuttle services). That could both be possible as Navan-Dublin services with Ashbourne-Clonsilla(or Dunshaughlin) shuttle services, or as 2 direct services with the rest divided between Navan-Clonsilla and Ashbourne-Clonsilla shuttle services.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822725#Comment_122822725

If they are starting from scratch it might mean they are examining new route options? I think in the original study they decided to rebuild on the old alignment, so this might be an opportunity for them to reconsider the Dunshaughlin alignment.

spacetweek

That is actually shocking, that they are restarting from scratch. That’s no way to go about things.

One more question. I assume this new line will be double tracked and electric from day one.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824457#Comment_122824457

I have been trying to read through the 2021 Navan Rail Line Assessment Report, and I hate to say but I somewhat understand why they are starting from scratch. It makes a lot of assumptions that I think don't really make sense for the current plans and transport strategy, and honestly I am surprises they were assumptions made as late as 2021. While I agree its a poor way of going about it, and will likely lead to some delays, it should hopefully lead to a better design taking into account D+ plans and AISRR reccomendations.

It assumes double-tracking but no proper electrification, let alone from the start. It assumes using cascaded DMUs(presumably 29Ks) until they are replaced by BEMUs, but it doesn't even seem to have any assumptions for any OHLE which surprises me.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821497#Comment_122821497

2 tph won't make a business case for a Navan rail link

dublinman1990

A plan setting out the Navan Rail line to Dublin is set to begin shortly.

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2024/1125/1482732-project-bringing-trains-back-to-navan-set-to-begin/

Key Points

Project will deliver a new 20km rail line from M3 Parkway to Navan

Phase 1 of project will include scope & design development and route selection developed over next 2 years

Public consultation on EPR will include a RO which will be submitted to ABP in 2027

Project, subject to planning & approval, will be delivered between 2030 & 2035 under GDATS.

Geuze

Is it really just 20km from end of existing line to Navan?

It needs to be electrified double-track, no LC, with ETCS, and capable of 160kph max speed.

I would hope for a mix between limited-stop regional trains, and stopping trains.

What might be the expected frequency? 2tph or more?

KrisW1001

Straight-line distance from M3 Parkway to Navan is 28 km. A "20km new rail line", may mean a plan to restore some of the existing disused line, and add 20km of new alignment.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122880467#Comment_122880467

Why would they have an express service when the plans for Drogheda is to remove express services and that line has more intermediate stations?

AngryLips

Smells like there's an election coming…

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122880799#Comment_122880799

I'm sure that there's an element of that, but this has been on the cards for years. Once the Dart+ projects started moving through planning, this was always likely to be one of the first projects to be looked at again, along with Finglas Luas.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122880467#Comment_122880467

I don't think we will be likely to see peak-time express Navan-Connolly services because of line capacity, though possibly we could see some express services off-peak (maybe the same for drogheda) when there is space in the timetable. IE's previous plan for Navan was for 2tph, and if that is kept I think they would be extensions of M3 Parkway services (ie 2tph Navan + 2tph M3). I think if they were to look at some peak-time express services, the best they could do would be an express Navan-Clonsilla shuttle which only stops north of M3 Parkway.

The only way I could see there being a regional service is if one of either the Kingscourt or Oldcastle lines were reinstated, but I don't personally expect that to happen.

KrisW1001

“20 km” is a typo by RTÉ.

The original press release says this:

The project seeks to deliver a new rail line of approximately 40 kilometres from the existing terminus station at M3 Parkway, north of Dunboyne, to the busy and growing commuter town of Navan, delivering direct Navan to Dublin city centre rail services.  Following an initial feasibility study, the project is included in the approved National Transport Authority (NTA) Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2022-2042. The Navan Rail Line is being delivered by Iarnród Éireann on behalf of NTA. Funding for the project is provided by Department of Transport through the NTA. [ … ] The line is expected to serve new stations, including at Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan, along its route.

From here: Project development for Navan rail line to begin - Iarnród Éireann News

From “Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan”, It’s clear that they are looking to reinstate the old way here, rather than build something new, but it will be interesting to see how they handle crossing M3: the motorway crosses the old rail alignment three times.

Pete_Cavan

Can't imagine how 30km of rail running through sparsely populated countryside could possibly pass a feasibility study. So much of the old alignment has now disappeared that they should be looking at a new alignment to actually serve potential passengers.

gjim

I like the idea of a Navan DART service but I'm also struggling to see it - definitely not to support 2 trains an hour.

I think it's one of the ones which feels like a good idea but the reason it comes up perennially is because it historically had a rail connection and not because it represents a bottleneck in Dublin transport.

The M3 means you can drive from the centre of Navan to the M3 parkway in 25 minutes, not much slower, if at all, than what a new train service would offer.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122883808#Comment_122883808

Pretty easily if they also create SDZs along the route. Two or three new towns along there would look good from a housing point of view.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122884135#Comment_122884135

A rail terminus in Navan is within driving distance of a lot more towns further afield than the M3 parkway.

The rail line does not just serve the towns immediately on the route

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122884135#Comment_122884135

In addition to what timmyntc said above, if the time difference between driving to the M3 Parkway and getting the DART from Navan is minimal, some people will still want take the train from Navan. There are still benifits, saving money on petrol, getting a better seat, some people prefer to drive as little as possible.

Also remember, there is the Dunshaughlin station, and if it is placed in east Dunshaughlin, it might also draw in passengers from Ratoath and Ashbourne.

It likely wont be the busiest rail corridor on the commuter network, but it will still see a fair amount of use, and will encourage development along the rail corridor.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122884491#Comment_122884491

Creating new towns is not a solution here. Clutching at those straws just shows it is a bad idea. New towns with no infrastructure would take decades to develop and cost a fortune. You have a large and growing town in Dunshaughlin which the existing line bypasses, serving it would be much better value than trying to develop new towns. New towns on some of the most productive agricultural land in the country also goes against national planning policies and EU policies too.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122883808#Comment_122883808

Actually, I was wrong to say they were probably reusing the old alignment - mention of Kilmessan (on the old line) threw me off, but Dunshaughlin is nowhere near the existing line. Really, any route to Navan that doesn’t catch Dunshaughlin and/or Ratoath would be a wasted opportunity.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885955#Comment_122885955

I assume the reference to Dunshaughlin refers to a new station at Drumree on the old alignment. I wouldn't consider that adequately serving Dunshaughlin but wouldn't be surprised if they lump Dunshaughlin's current and future population into the feasibility study to make the case.

Glaceon

I was looking at the old stations past Dunboyne on Eiretrains.

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Batterstown/IrishRailwayStations.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20D/Drumree/IrishRailwayStations.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20K/Kilmessan%20Junction/IrishRailwayStations.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Bective/IrishRailwayStations.html

Interesting to see that the line was only originally double as far as Drumree, I thought it was all the way to Navan. These photos show that there's plenty of obstacles on the original alignment. They'll have to go around a hotel in Kilmessan unless they CPO it.

KrisW1001

Here's the old line, in relation to the M3. Red circles are where the motorway crosses the old alignment.

[Map source: RAILISA STAT UIC ]

Interestingly, the green dashed section veering toward Dunshaughlin is labelled as “Proposed Navan Line” on that map.

OisinCooke

If the line wasn’t doubled all the way to Navan anyway and if it encounters such obstacles as the Kilmessan hotel and 3 separate M3 crossings, the obvious decision would be to just build a new fully double tracked alignment, with a station outside of Ratoath and one in Dunshaughlin before continuing to Navan without anymore interference with the M3… Obvious decision means noting in this country sadly when it comes to infrastructure though…

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122887695#Comment_122887695

Actually, looking at aerial photos, most of the old alignment has been built on or subsumed into the surrounding farms. It might actually be easier to try CPO a new route than reuse the old one.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122884135#Comment_122884135

Come on, we’ve been over this so many times. Any outlying large town outside Dublin needs to have a rail link or it’s just not at the races in terms of public transport. It’s not so important for this town to be on the DART but it does need to have electrified rail at least.

As for the alignment, I banged this drum on this thread before but if we’re starting the project from scratch, we need to bite the bullet and accept the higher cost of diverting east of the M3 to serve Ratoath and northeast Dunshaughlin. With a Ratoath bypass, you could have a local bus from Ashbourne serve the station.