Throwers and throws coaching

longjump67

RoyMcC wrote: »

Nice one. I fondly remember my daughter representing Hampshire at U13 level and getting third with a PB 25.00m

She would be U-13 in the UK as she was born Dec 1999, but U-14 here in Ireland so always competeing against girls a little older.

Her pb's now are
26.88m 400g Javelin
22.34m 2.5kg Hammer
10.98m 2kg Shot
18.45m .75 Discus (one comp from last year, still to compete this year)

all in all not bad for a 12 year old.

RoyMcC

Yes I'd be pleased if I had a thrower of that age with those distances. Hammer as well, which is still largely ignored by young ladies. The 2kg shot in Ireland is an incentive to young throwrs as well - 2.72kg is our lightest weight.

Look forward to seeing her progression this summer.

longjump67

Finn Valleys Dempsey Mc Guigan breaks the 70m mark for the first time and in doing so break his own Irish Junior record, 70.02m a Q mark for the World Junior Champs in Barcalona.

a_non_a_mouse

Thoughts on recent changed to the weights in shot, hammer for girls (javelin as well I think) ?
U16 u17 u18 will now throw 3k shot And hammer.
Previously u18 had 4k and u16/17 had 3.25k

What ever the merit, it seems stange that it's applied immediately.
People now have to get equipment so athletes can prepare with the new weights.

I think it's strange, at club level athletes were already throwing lighter than England etc for most ages. U17 in England throw 4k. Unless they have also announced a change? RoyMc ?
In schools u17 throw 4k but u18 in clubs will now throw 3k.

a_non_a_mouse

Oh and short wire hammer is gone also so longjumps67 you need to get your daughter training with the long wire asap.

Ball throw is gone from next year to be replaced with turbo javs.

RoyMcC

Strange. No change in UK.

I was coaching shot earlier this evening. Our club has a shed full of senior men's 7.26kg shots - hardly ever used. For the young girls though there's always a hunt to find the couple of 2.72kg and 3.25kg shots :mad: Great coaching weather though

longjump67

a_non_a_mouse wrote: »

Oh and short wire hammer is gone also so longjumps67 you need to get your daughter training with the long wire asap.

Ball throw is gone from next year to be replaced with turbo javs.

Yeah knew about the short wire being done away with, the ball throw going to be replaced by turbo javelin is a bit of a shock.

I'm I right in thinking that is those foam javelins they sometimes use in sportshall? Can't see why the would use them as you have to throw them like a dart to get them to go any distance.

RoyMcC

longjump67 wrote: »

I'm I right in thinking that is those foam javelins they sometimes use in sportshall? Can't see why the would use them as you have to throw them like a dart to get them to go any distance.

No, they're a more solid plastic with a bit of weight. Excellent for the U11s.

meathcountysec

RoyMcC wrote: »

No, they're a more solid plastic with a bit of weight. Excellent for the U11s.

To be honest I don’t think it’s a positive step. The ball throw was never supposed to be a training ground for budding javelin throwers. It was a fun and accessible event that most kids, no matter what their athletic ability could have a lash at. Now, from under 9 up they have to start thinking (and be coached in) the javelin technique. The ball throw was more typically thrown with a “baseball” technique.

Going beyond that, how will a standard for the turbo javelin be set? For all other throwing events there are standards set by the IAAF, as regards weights, lengths, centre of gravity, circumference. The ball throw was done with a sliothair, the standard for which is set by the GAA. Turbo javelins are made by several manufacturers, who make them to their own individual spec. It might be possible to agree on a particular make/model but there is no guarantee that the model design won’t change and then you have multiple versions in use. You can’t compare championship bests from one season to another if the specs are different.

Re the short-wire hammer, again it was being used at the entry-age categories, and was an aid to coaching as much as anything else. The longer implement will cause problems for the more vertically challenged kids who haven’t started their growth spurt at that age (some will still be 12 when throwing them), grounding on the throwing circle during their rotations. From the point of view of officiating, they will be whizzing out in all directions, and over further distances. Good luck with that.

RoyMcC

Beg to disagree Mr Secretary. Of course you're correct in saying that ball-throwing is accessible to all. But assuming you wish to improve the throw then you need to start introducing the basic principles of throwing. The top baseball pitchers and the modern cricket outfielders would be excellent models.

I don't believe the little ones should be throwing a ball just to 'have a go' - they surely wish to adjust to throw further.

Re the turbo I don't think IAAF standards extend below U13 do they? But yes, if they are to be used in competition then the spec needs to be agreed.

Never come across the short wire hammer which is, I imagine, excellent for beginners.

a_non_a_mouse

thinking re: turbo jav's was the ball throw didn't lead to good javelin technique and maybe this will help.
One down side I see....with the ball throw any kid could pick up a few cheap sliotars and practice outside club times anywhere they could find space.
going to be a lot more expensive if someone wants to practice with a turbo jav.
also, I believe there will be different weights for different ages, so makes it more expensive if clubs want to purchase a few for each age group.

I guess the proof will be in 10/15 years time if we get javelin throwers to major competitions....altho, I guess it would be progress if we have more females in the 30m+ and more males in the 50m+

RoyMcC

a_non_a_mouse wrote: »

with the ball throw any kid could pick up a few cheap sliotars and practice outside club times anywhere they could find space.

They can still do that but won't improve. You can hit 500 golf balls at a target and, whilst you might achieve consistency, you won't improve. You'll just reinforce bad habits.

If you can change things e.g. through good coaching, that's when performance improves.

a_non_a_mouse

point taken....
I was assuming good technique already learnt :-)

meathcountysec

RoyMcC wrote: »

Beg to disagree Mr Secretary.

Easy Tiger. Last time I was addressed as Mr. Secretary I was in big trouble. I am more commonly referred to as “Here You!” or “Listen Stupid!”

RoyMcC wrote: »

Of course you're correct in saying that ball-throwing is accessible to all. But assuming you wish to improve the throw then you need to start introducing the basic principles of throwing. The top baseball pitchers and the modern cricket outfielders would be excellent models.

Yes, but the range of techniques for throwing a ball and for throwing a javelin-shaped object are different. You can use a multiplicity of techniques and achieve a decent distance with a ball. Not so with a javelin. U9 to U11 is too early to be focusing on a single technique. By all means strive to improve the techniques that kids use but that is too early an age to be “imposing” a technique. I have seen many athletes develop injuries/strains/whatever from bad implementation of the correct javelin technique. Those age groups should be about taking part, if they excel great.

RoyMcC wrote: »

I don't believe the little ones should be throwing a ball just to 'have a go' - they surely wish to adjust to throw further.

I agree, but the pathway into the event should be easy to grasp and intuitive to do. They should be able to “have a go” from the outset, not have to develop a “technique” before they can receive the positive feedback that a good performance will give them. There isn’t even a logical progression. U12’s don’t do javelin!!

RoyMcC

Good points. Whilst I can't totally agree it's good to see the flame of throwing being kept alive. If you can't enthuse an athlete at a young age it's unlikely you will in future years.

On injuries though you surprise me. I see very little incidence of injury amongst young throwers. Granted, the stresses increase as the athlete progresses - javelin in particular is hard on the body.

No javelin for U12? I didn't realise that when I coached at Irishtown Our U13s (we have two-year bands here of course) do all the throws.

meathcountysec

RoyMcC wrote: »

On injuries though you surprise me. I see very little incidence of injury amongst young throwers. Granted, the stresses increase as the athlete progresses - javelin in particular is hard on the body.

Obviously you are too good a coach for deficiencies in technique to develop

However, its one of the things I harp on about (ask any of the kids I coach for javelin :rolleyes:).

If the javelin technique becomes the default then it will be a problem. However the result will be less doing the event rather than a swathe of bandaged throwers lining up.

My main point is that U9 (7 & 8 years olds) to U11 (9 & 10 years old) are far too young to be introducing a "technical" event to.

longjump67

Re: short wire hammer V long wire, I take it there will be an increase in distances thrown for long wire or I'm I wrong? What is the lenght of the short wire and long wire?

meathcountysec

longjump67 wrote: »

Re: short wire hammer V long wire, I take it there will be an increase in distances thrown for long wire or I'm I wrong?

The laws of physics apply. Longer wire = longer lever = more force = longer distance

longjump67 wrote: »

What is the length of the short wire and long wire?

What’s with the hard questions? You do know its Friday?

longjump67

meathcountysec wrote: »

The laws of physics apply. Longer wire = longer lever = more force = longer distance



What’s with the hard questions? You do know its Friday?

Sorry new to Hammer throwing although I'm going on an introduction on hammer tomorrow so maybe I'll ask my hard questions there, lol.

As you say some athletes will be 12 (my own daughter won't be 13 till mid December) and will have difficulty in rotations with striking the ground. Mind she hasn't learned how to do the turns yet, hoping I get enough knowledge tomorrow to start introducing turns into her training.

meathcountysec

longjump67 wrote: »

Sorry new to Hammer throwing although I'm going on an introduction on hammer tomorrow so maybe I'll ask my hard questions there, lol.

As you say some athletes will be 12 (my own daughter won't be 13 till mid December) and will have difficulty in rotations with striking the ground. Mind she hasn't learned how to do the turns yet, hoping I get enough knowledge tomorrow to start introducing turns into her training.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. When I was doing my Level 2 the hammer tutor told me I was a "natural" at the event, all be it with a 3Kg implement.

Went back to the club's hammer cage, replete with 7.26Kg hammer. Nearly pulled meself out of my socks:D:D

Never again :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

RoyMcC

I can't do more than a single turn for the life of me. I guess I could if I wanted to work at it, do the foot drills etc.

But I've got a reasonably new 13-year old who, last night, was doing four heel/toe turns and getting the hammer out into the field. A bit ropey but still impressive for a young lad.

LJ, it will be interesting what you pick up tomorrow. I attended a Paddy McGrath session a couple of years back in Santry aimed at older throwers and he was excellent.

longjump67

Will keep you posted on what happens tomorrow

longjump67

Well learn a lot today about hammer throwing. Excellent workshop delivered by Gareth Moffett from Ballymena & Antrim. 10 athletes and 4 coaches attended.

meathcountysec

longjump67 wrote: »

Well learn a lot today about hammer throwing. Excellent workshop delivered by Gareth Moffett from Ballymena & Antrim. 10 athletes and 4 coaches attended.

A word to the wise.

Tighten your shoelaces before attempting anything you saw demonstrated today:D

longjump67

meathcountysec wrote: »

A word to the wise.

Tighten your shoelaces before attempting anything you saw demonstrated today:D

Oh took full part in the session, can't coach kids how to throw unless you can demonstrate it to a reasonable level IMO. Feeling a bit sore now mind and found muscles I didn't know I had, lol. Even managed 2 turns but was quite dizzy, how the top guys do 4 much faster turns is beyond me.

longjump67

2nd Javelin comp today for my daughter and it didn't go to well she still won the comp but only 22m odd but later in the day had a massive pb (by almost 8m) in the discus (0.75kg) with an impressive 26.15m

longjump67

Below is a request that i sent to AAI office about changes made at congress. Below that is the reply, I'm confused.

Q. Can anyone put up the changes in events made a congress last week, Heard that the shortwire hammer is being done away with for U-14 B & G and U-15 G. What is the min and max length of the long hammer for example, this would be essential for all athletes wishing to compete at these events also for their coaches.

A. I have looked into your request here in the office. The minutes from congress will be going up on the website shortly. I will send you a message as soon as they are up. Anything that has been passed at congress in regard to competition will not come into effect until next season.

So does this mean that the shortwire is still in effect?

a_non_a_mouse

longjump67 wrote: »

.
So does this mean that the shortwire is still in effect?

I hope so....but I was told by someone who was at Congress that those changes were effective immediately. Same with change in weights.

Its absolutely crazy that this info has not appeared on the AAI site yet.

longjump67

Well I have had my daughter training (only 2 or 3 times so far) with the long wire as we do not have any shortwire.

It leaves us now that with 4 weeks to provincals we still don't know that length of hammer will be used.

I take it that the shortwire is easier to throw, is it?

a_non_a_mouse

Short wire should be easier if your a bit on the small side (and in fairness more u14 girls will be)
Long wire should mean (all other things being equal) that it would go further.

I've sent an email just now to AAI also asking for clarification...I'll post any reply here.