Throwers and throws coaching

Bruce7

RoyMcC wrote: »

Is that with a 6k shot (though I know he can chuck the senior weight further than most as well)?

Yes, the 6k. His PBs are below. He has the u-18 world record with the 5k

5 kg: 24.45 m

6 kg: 22.31 m

7.26 kg: 20.38 m

a_non_a_mouse

Best of luck to McCabe and McGuigian today in the Hammer qualifying.
Proabably need big PB's to make the cut but anything can happen, so fingers crossed

longjump67

longjump67 wrote: »

Last comp for my daughter before the All-Irelands next weekend and things are going well a new pb in the javelin 28.00m
In training she is throwing around 27 -28m with a 3kg Hammer (we have nothing lighter) and the Discus is the only ropey event at the moment as one night its 24 - 25m the next it could be 20 - 21m.
Overall she has improved steadily all year and think we have peaked nicely for the nationals, fingers -crossed.

Well the All-Irelands are over and pleased to say my daughter had 2 pb's which resulted in 2 Silver medals.
Javelin (400g) 28.15m pb
Hammer (2.5kg) 31.13m pb by almost 7metres.
Discus (0.75kg) 22.38m in the middle of a massive downpour.

Overall she has improved steadily thoughout the year and I think she has potential in the Hammer as she is still learning the turns but did manage 2 turns at the weekend.:D

Bruce7

http://www.rte.ie/sport/olympics/athletics/2012/0717/329510-past-olympians-conway-looks-back-at-munich-1972/

Piece on Phil Conway

a_non_a_mouse

New U23 Hammer record and a new recruit to the ranks of Irish throwers*

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=26693

Delighted on both counts.

(* yes, I know he is Irish, but previously he competed for USA and wasn't aware until I read the previous article from Phil Conway that he had declared for Ireland)

RoyMcC

Bruce7 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/olympics/athletics/2012/0717/329510-past-olympians-conway-looks-back-at-munich-1972/

Piece on Phil Conway

Excellent. I got to know Phil quite well whilst in Dublin. Watching coaches like him, working with athletes in all kinds of crap weather, is inspirational. You've got to have a love of the sport to spend your time getting cold and wet putting in hours with athletes you know are quite likely going to lose interest at some point and go and do something else.

But they just keep coming back and giving it their best shot. Those guys are the bedrock of the sport and I can think of no better way to thank them than to try to follow their example as best one can.

a_non_a_mouse

RoyMcC wrote: »

Watching coaches like him, working with athletes in all kinds of crap weather, is inspirational.

yeah, Phil is defo one of the good guys.
the respect he shows for all athletes in competitions is an example for other officials.

just thinking about McCullough being added to the hammer mix...
he's still u23 next year.
national u23 in 2011 there was 1 u23.
in 2013....you could have competition for spot at European u23....
COULD have....McCullough, McGuigan, McCabe, Barry, Furlong, Doyle plus others in a decent supporting cast....
Not sure what standard AAI will put on it...but official standard is 63.50m...
looking forward to it already!

a_non_a_mouse

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/a-love-affair-with-a-ball-and-chain-3175741.html

Piece on Declan Hegarty

javthrow

Hi everyone god a real stir is right!!! All went well for me over my last three comps by hitting the 49's... I understand the context of the message now but can easily been picked up wrong.. On and upwards from here. Oh your not an ass now. i take that back. Im quite a fiesty one when i get going!! Maybe next time I'm out throwing you can introduce yourself as it would be nice to meet after all this!!! I promise I'll be nice:) thanks for the real support .. Throwing this weekend in Wales so hopefully next time it's the 50's:)

longjump67

javthrow wrote: »

Hi everyone god a real stir is right!!! All went well for me over my last three comps by hitting the 49's... I understand the context of the message now but can easily been picked up wrong.. On and upwards from here. Oh your not an ass now. i take that back. Im quite a fiesty one when i get going!! Maybe next time I'm out throwing you can introduce yourself as it would be nice to meet after all this!!! I promise I'll be nice:) thanks for the real support .. Throwing this weekend in Wales so hopefully next time it's the 50's:)

Great to see you pop back on this thread and delighted that we've cleared up any misunderstanding. I was at the nationals and not a million miles away either (I was officiating) so decided not to make myself known as it might have affected your performance. Had my daughter down with me and she saw you throw and when I asked her what she thought about the womens Javelin comp all she could say was "WOW".:eek:

It would be great if you could find the time to be a regular on this thread, as one of our top athletes your imput would be most welcome. We all feel that the throwers in Ireland do not get the media attention or recognition that they deserve. Mind Ireland could be on the cusp of a throwing revival, some good young hammer throwers about now and it would be great to see the javelin get a boost in the arm (Pardon the pun) with someone like yourself hitting over the 50m mark on a regular basis.

Should be down at the national League finals in Tullamore in August and hope to see you throw then and maybe you will be hitting the magic 50m by then, wishing you all the best in your career.

Trevor O Connell

I've been asking a few people why they choose glide over spin in terms of shot put technique.

Most these people are much bigger then me in terms of build but most of them gave the reason, stability

They felt when they spin, they loose stability in the mid-part of the spin

Most said this was down to strength i.e. they felt they were not strong enough

But am I correct in assuming, provided you know how to do a spin

That a poor core could be a major factor in stability if you choose that technique over the glide

Trevor

RoyMcC

Most seasoned putters have tried both and will have found out which suits them.

I'd say that your assumption is correct. It's easier to hold the body position in a straight-line glide than in the rotational which sets up other forces.

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

Bruce7

RoyMcC wrote: »

Most seasoned putters have tried both and will have found out which suits them.

I'd say that your assumption is correct. It's easier to hold the body position in a straight-line glide than in the rotational which sets up other forces.

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

Maybe the mods could merge this with the throws thread?

Ideally there should be no pause or deceleration in the centre of the circle in both the glide and the spin, so the core should not need to play a role in stabilising, or rebalancing, or getting back into position, at the centre of the circle. If it does, this is indicative of bad technique from the back of the circle.

In both the glide and rotation the hips should be ahead of the shoulders at delivery to create torque / stretch, so the core (specifically the obliques) plays the same role in both techniques - transferring force from the legs to the implement during the block.

If you are off balance or out of position in the centre of the circle, your priority should be to work on your balance out of the back of the circle, not developing your core strength so that you can muscle yourself back into position in the centre , as this will result in the deceleration / pausing that you are trying to avoid at all costs

I believe this applies to the glide and the spin equally.

RoyMcC

Yes, totally agree that if you get in wrong at the back then you're probably toast anyway by delivery. However proper conditioning will help minimise the damage in competition. And you're less likely to get out of shape with a basic glide.

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

Trevor O Connell

I think even with the standing throw its hard to get it right. To get that real power where you body lifts and your right back leg powers through

a_non_a_mouse

RoyMcC wrote: »

It's no coincidence though that most of the top boys favour rotational, and they will have spent a lot of time doing core work.

true...but don't forget defending Olympic champ is a glider and so is the current world champ. (talking men's...most top women are gliders)

RoyMcC wrote:

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

What about the switchback technique as a progression from standing?

Bruce7

RoyMcC wrote: »

Yes, totally agree that if you get in wrong at the back then you're probably toast anyway by delivery. However proper conditioning will help minimise the damage in competition. And you're less likely to get out of shape with a basic glide.

Bruce, what would you say about progressing a youngster from a standing throw? I hate the side-on shuffle but the transition from standing to glide is a bit fierce for many.

You could try this. Phil Conway uses it with beginners. I think he calls it a shuffle back. Assuming a right handed thrower.

1. Start with both feet shoulder width apart at back of circle.
() ()

2. Take short step back with left foot
()(()

()

3. Step back and turn right foot aiming for centre of circle
()

<<>

4. Left foot to front of circle (power position)
<>

<<>

5. Throw
()

()()

Feet will have turned 180 degrees.

Good resources here: http://www.coachkrall.com/Articles/

Trevor O Connell

I think this video is very good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3PER52irKI

From my own experience I find it so hard to engage my right foot / hips

I throw it all from my upper body i.e. arm, I make no use of my legs in fact any time I do my throw goes backwards

My standing throw is okay but my glide is awful

But I think for young people its different when you learn something at a young age it stays with you for life

For example I do russian twists over hurdles with great ease, and its down to the fact that I learned to do them at 17 to 18 years old

I like your post above Bruce, must try that

RoyMcC

Good stuff Bruce, I'll check those links out further, and I'll also try Phil's drill at an earlier opportunity - tonight probably

Trevor I find it useful to go through the 'chain reaction' very slowly, shot (or disc or jav) held still while the right foot turns through the ankle, then knee, hip and shoulder - only then does the arm and implement become active. It's better than instructing athletes to 'throw with your legs' when they have no idea of what you're on about.

I'll check out the vid as well.

Nice to get technical learning done through Boards!

Trevor O Connell

Rory this is all new to me.

Just learning as I go along so I'm far from an expert on the subject

But yeah that's what I try to do too

Breaking the move in to small jig saw pieces

But I reckon younger athletes will get it alot quicker then an older person like myself

For example rotation,

I got to be honest, while I try it at home, I'd be too fearful to try it in a competition in case I make a pure ass out of myself.

That's something that most young people don't fear they just try it and what the heck

Great discussion

Trevor O Connell

I may as well ask another question while I'm on

What is the differential between a standing throw and say glide or rotation

1 to 2 meters or more

Am I right in assuming if you can glide throw 13m, you should be close to a 11m standing throw

Trevor

RoyMcC

If you've done a bit of discus then rotational shot is an easy enough transition - the feet movement is more or less identical.

Yes, I'd say that differential is not far off - increasing perhaps as you begin to handle increased explosiveness without technique breaking down.

Just developing the discussion, do you guys do a lot of discus throwing into the cage, with a rubber training discus? John Hillier (coach to Duquemin & Okoye) introduced this to us some time ago. Certainly during the winter months John gets his throwers to do literally hundreds of throws into the cage, continually adjusting technique. It beats chucking out onto the grass all the time and having to plod out to collect.

Then, by the early spring, the throwers are gagging to throw out and they've got a great technical base from which to do so.

Not sure if this practice is widespread but I've rarely seen it elsewhere.

Bruce7

I think this is a great idea. I fully intend to get myself set up indoors somewhere for the winter with a net to throw into. If the worst comes to the worst, it will be my garage, but I'm hoping that a gym will allow me to do it if I bring along a nice thick mat to protect their floor.

RoyMcC

Bruce7 wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I fully intend to get myself set up indoors somewhere for the winter with a net to throw into. If the worst comes to the worst, it will be my garage, but I'm hoping that a gym will allow me to do it if I bring along a nice thick mat to protect their floor.

Throw with an identical weight rubber disc though, not a regular one :eek:

Trevor O Connell

I saw that on youtube too, throwing in to net, saw it for javelin too. Great idea I think.

Trying to get some place you can do this is the thing and good mats are not cheap

Trevor

Bruce7

a_non_a_mouse wrote: »

true...but don't forget defending Olympic champ is a glider and so is the current world champ.

And they came 1st and 2nd at the Olympics - 3cm between them.

RoyMcC

Great pic of Ashton Eaton in the (English) Times today in the shot circle. It's from ground level with the athlete, having completed his throw, facing the camera. High in the blue sky is the shot on its way.

But what interested me were the shoes he was wearing. I assumed even the multi-event guys would wear slick-soled circle shoes. But Eaton had some chunky Nikes on with grips that you could go rock climbing in :eek:

Granted, Eaton's a glider and the shoe type is much less of a factor than for a spinner.

RayCun

this one?

Trevor O Connell

What would be an average throw for a javelin (800g) and Discus (2kg) with very little training behind an athlete in the specific events.

30m Javelin and 30m discus sound about right

RoyMcC

Trevor, if you look at the UK rankings the senior javelin starts at no.600 who is throwing 37m. Discus, 30m would put you 460th.

To be fair, your distances are probably what a first-timer might throw.

http://www.thepowerof10.info/