How to Use A Roundabout

L-M

How are there so many people wrong?


It's past twelve, it's the right lane. Simples

vibe666

i can't believe another roundabout thread was going on and i'm only just catching it now.

phill106 wrote: »

God, now do i not only need to bring my drivers license while driving, I also need to bring a protractor

no, you just need half a brain a pair of eyes to read the road signs & markings and a little bit of common sense.

bbk wrote: »

Niamh, I accept that there is another way of using roundabouts being taught in the country. The poll and evidence posted makes this very clear. Evidence being the email and the RSA website. You can wish and roll your eyes all you want but all those links are doing is showing how bad the RSA is at giving a clear message. They are not proving your stance at all. There is no proving to be done on either side. Two clear methods are given but the unclarity and the problem is that there are two methods to begin with.

there is no "other side" to this argument, just a lot of people who don't know the correct way to use a roundabout and keep trying to spread misinformation based on their own strong opinions and misinterpretation of the law & ROTR.

you can WANT to be right all you like, but I'm afraid it doesn't change the facts. having the strongest opinion on a subject isn't enough when you're wrong and you can't just keep saying the wrong thing to make it right.

BostonB wrote: »

Going straight is meaningless on a large very roundabout, where you can't see the exits. Until you get around to them. Straight might be the 3rd or 4th exit.

which is why any roundabout big enough for it not to be obvious will have a fecking great big sign with a clearly laid out diagram on it with all the exits noted so you can quickly and easily see the correct exit for your destination and pick the correct lane as you approach, based on the 100% FACTUALLY CORRECT 12 o'clock rule.

Vertakill wrote: »

I should've clarified the part I was referring to that was 'wrong' is the clock approach that people use.

My post was just to point out that referring to a roundabout by "x o clock" is wrong and shouldn't be used - but I see that I was pretty vague about it.

no it isn't and I can say that with 100% certainty because I learnt to drive in the UK where learners aren't allowed out unaccompanied and form bad habits that they can't seem to break, there is a proper driving test and the rules for negotiating roundabouts have been in place for decades and are very clearly defined and taught universally by all instructors and tested for during all driving tests.

when I took my test 17 years ago in the UK my instructor took great pains to make sure i fully understood the correct use of roundabouts & the 12 o'clock rule because he knew that at least one of several potential awkward roundabouts would be part of my test and was a very common fault that the testers would fail people on.

also, just to make the point that the roundabout in the OP's question IS in the UK, not Ireland so even if the Irish ROTR were different regarding roundabouts (which they aren't, they are currently just the same as everywhere else in Europe) any preconceived ideas about exit numbers would be irrelevant as they are neither taught, nor used in the UK as a way to negotiate a roundabout.

a lot of people here seem to have some pre-conceived notion of 'exit numbers' on a roundabout which is totally incorrect. i welcome anyone to prove me wrong by finding ANY piece of current legislation that uses the numbered exit system, but i'll save you some time if you like because they don't exist.

even the little youtube video's that the lefties keep posting CLEARLY state left, straight & right exits. just to clarify, straight means that you are exiting exactly opposite (hence the 12 o'clock rule) where you entered the roundabout and anything beyond that is right.

according to the poll results, 116 people are going to be driving 'STRAIGHT' into the trees on the other side of the roundabout exactly opposite where they entered, whereas the rest of us who understand the correct way to negotiate a roundabout will be exiting at the first RIGHT hand exit.

i really don't understand how the leftie argument even still exists. there was a link earlier in this thread showing how people are marked on their driving tests which leaves absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever. how can posters on here be disagreeing with the people who would be marking them on their driving tests?

seriously, what is a more likely scenario? that you have misinterpreted the instructions in the ROTR based on an ill-conceived and incorrect notion of exit numbers, or that the documents used by the people who mark you on your driving test are totally wrong and none of the hundreds of licensed testers noticed?

NUTZZ wrote: »

For me I don't see the debate, it's straight on (albeit off 12 o'clock), so its the left lane and signal left after the first exit.

i'm very sorry, but you apear to have a serious lack of a basic understanding of the word 'straight'.

its very simple. imagine yourself walking onto a giant clock face painted on the ground at 6 o'clock. now walk 'straight' to where the 12 o'clock is. if 12 o'clock is 'straight' then anything to the left of it MUST be classified as 'left' and anything to the right of 12 o'clock MUST be classified as 'right'.

there is no ambiguity, just a lack of understanding of the most basic concepts of left, straight & right by a ridiculously large number of people which i have to admit is totally baffling to me.

the 12 o'clock rule is the standard method of negotiating roundabouts all over the UK and Europe and is a simple way for people to negotiate roundabouts using the "left, straight, right" (aka the 12 o'clock rule) method correctly, no matter which entrance or exit they are entering and exiting on or whatever the size of the roundabout, but for some reason it took a while to catch on in Ireland. the thing is, it's here now, there's no mention of numbered exits anywhere in any of the current literature or road safety video's and it is the responsibility of every licensed driver on the roads to to keep up with the current ROTR for the safety of both themselves & other road users.

you don't have to like it, but those are the facts and wanting it to be different and having it different are two different things.

Voodoomelon

Vertakill wrote: »

For example, if you approach a roundabout and the very first exit is all the way around at 3 o clock... you obviously stay in the left lane regardless of the exit being on the very right handside of the roundabout.

I find it hard to imagine why you would even require a roundabout in this instance.

zynaps

vibe666 wrote: »

there is no "other side" to this argument, just a lot of people who don't know the correct way to use a roundabout and keep trying to spread misinformation based on their own strong opinions and misinterpretation of the law & ROTR.
...
a lot of people here seem to have some pre-conceived notion of 'exit numbers' on a roundabout which is totally incorrect. i welcome anyone to prove me wrong by finding ANY piece of current legislation that uses the numbered exit system, but i'll save you some time if you like because they don't exist.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7604-0.pdf

IF LEAVING BY THE SECOND EXIT, approach and enter the roundabout in the left hand lane...
...
IF LEAVING BY ANY EXIT AFTER THE 12 O’CLOCK POSITION, approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane...

This text was in the official ROTR until very recently (later than May 2006, presumably). So unless you expect every driver to re-read the entire ROTR regularly, the confusion is understandable since it came from reading the Rules of the Road.

vibe666 wrote: »

there is no ambiguity, just a lack of understanding of the most basic concepts of left, straight & right by a ridiculously large number of people which i have to admit is totally baffling to me.

That's obviously not the case. There has been confusion over which rule to follow for roundabouts, not because people can't tell left from right or straight, but because one clear rule was not taught.

Do a web search for "rules of the road" +roundabouts +"second exit" +site:ie and you'll see websites for driving schools repeating the confused information mentioned above from the ROTR.
If driving schools are getting this wrong, do you really think it's fair to paint 50% of drivers as complete morons who can't tell left from right?

BigEejit

As vibe mentioned, if driving schools do not understand how their students are going to be actually tested (i.e. driving test inspectors expecting the 12 O'Clock rule to be observed) then they should not be in business.

BigEejit

Vertakill wrote: »

That's wrong. A driving instructor will never give you an instruction 'take the 12 o clock exit' or anything like that.
They'll always say, take the 1st, 2nd, 3rd exit etc...

People need to get out of the mindframe of using the clock face as it only causes confusion when a roundabout is not a standard one or doesn't abide by the standard rules based on the way it was designed.

For example, if you approach a roundabout and the very first exit is all the way around at 3 o clock... you obviously stay in the left lane regardless of the exit being on the very right handside of the roundabout.



Not all roundabouts are the same.

If you look at the RSA's picture, they only show you 1 particular roundabout that has 2 lanes entering and 2 lanes exiting.
Not all roundabouts will have 2 lanes on every single point so you can't make a blanket rule for all roundabouts like that.

In my diagram, if the driving test inspector asked you to take the 4th exit (not mentioning 12 o clock rule or anything, just saying "take the 4th exit"), and there were two lanes entering the roundabout .... which one would you be in when you entered the roundabout?

Accoring to a fair proportion of the people who posted in this thread they would be in the right hand lane entering the roundabout and according to the rules the inspectors use posted above, those posters should fail.

Zubeneschamali

zynaps wrote: »

This text was in the official ROTR until very recently (later than May 2006, presumably).

This european site still has an old version of the Irish RoR for roundabouts, which includes the "first, second, later exit" language.

It also has my favourite explanation for the "go straight in the right lane" exception:

"Where conditions dictate otherwise, you may follow the course shown by the broken line."

I seem to remember that the RoR were much vaguer about roundabouts back in the 80s when I learned, using some wording like "where there is more than one lane, common sense applies". My instructor used the clock rule back in 1985 or so.

Notice that the actual law never changed: the rules were clarified badly sometime in the 90s, and then clarified properly in the 2000s.

Zubeneschamali

Here's Conor Bleedin Faughnan's AA blog on the subject last November:

1. If taking the 1st exit you should indicate left when queuing to enter the roundabout.
2. If taking the 2nd exit only indicate left once you’ve past the 1st exit.
3. If taking the third exit, indicate right until you are past the 2nd exit. Then indicate left to signal your intent to exit.
4. If taking the last exit indicate right until you are past the previous exit. Then indicate left to signal your intent to exit.

Zubeneschamali

The outdated RoR are still up at LIreland.com

vibe666

zynaps wrote: »

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7604-0.pdf

This text was in the official ROTR until very recently (later than May 2006, presumably). So unless you expect every driver to re-read the entire ROTR regularly, the confusion is understandable since it came from reading the Rules of the Road.

well it was completely removed by October 2006, presumably after it was pointed out that what was in the May 2006 'draft' document was incorrect ). http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/8342-0.pdf

zynaps wrote: »

That's obviously not the case. There has been confusion over which rule to follow for roundabouts, not because people can't tell left from right or straight, but because one clear rule was not taught.

the correct use of roundabouts has been clearly explained in the ROTR and other documents since at least October 2006 and has been explained here several times now so there is no excuse, at least for anyone who has read this thread.

regardless of whether or not it was taught wrongly in the past, it is the personal responsibility of all drivers to adhere to the CURRENT rules of the road and to ensure that their knowledge of any changes to the ROTR are up to date. ignorance of the current ROTR is not an excuse, and people continuing to do things wrongly just because they were taught wrongly or are ignoring current legislation is accomplishing nothing except showing ignorance, arrogance and risking lives.

zynaps wrote: »

Do a web search for "rules of the road" +roundabouts +"second exit" +site:ie and you'll see websites for driving schools repeating the confused information mentioned above from the ROTR.
If driving schools are getting this wrong, do you really think it's fair to paint 50% of drivers as complete morons who can't tell left from right?

no, but it seems very fair to me to paint people as complete morons if they refuse to update their own knowledge when it has been clearly explained to them time and time again that they are wrong, with links to (current) official documentation showing them how it should be done.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Here's Conor Bleedin Faughnan's AA blog on the subject last November:

1. If taking the 1st exit you should indicate left when queuing to enter the roundabout.
2. If taking the 2nd exit only indicate left once you’ve past the 1st exit.
3. If taking the third exit, indicate right until you are past the 2nd exit. Then indicate left to signal your intent to exit.
4. If taking the last exit indicate right until you are past the previous exit. Then indicate left to signal your intent to exit.

well Conor Bleedin Faughnan should hand in his driving licence and his job title for being a muppet. :rolleyes:

seriously, how is the guy still doing that job if he can't get the basics right for negotiating a roundabout and then publishes it online in an official capacity?

Welease

zynaps wrote: »

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7604-0.pdf

This text was in the official ROTR until very recently (later than May 2006, presumably). So unless you expect every driver to re-read the entire ROTR regularly, the confusion is understandable since it came from reading the Rules of the Road.


That's obviously not the case. There has been confusion over which rule to follow for roundabouts, not because people can't tell left from right or straight, but because one clear rule was not taught.

Do a web search for "rules of the road" +roundabouts +"second exit" +site:ie and you'll see websites for driving schools repeating the confused information mentioned above from the ROTR.
If driving schools are getting this wrong, do you really think it's fair to paint 50% of drivers as complete morons who can't tell left from right?

But it's still clear in the link you provided.. even though it uses first, second exit.. Any exit after 12 o'clock must be entered via the right hand lane.. I honestly don't see how people can misinterpret this.

"IF LEAVING BY ANY EXIT AFTER THE 12 O’CLOCK POSITION, [FONT=JDFAJG+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=JDFAJG+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane signalling a right turn. "[/FONT][/FONT]

PaddyTheNth

vibe666 wrote: »

well it was completely removed by October 2006, presumably after it was pointed out that what was in the May 2006 'draft' document was incorrect ). http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/8342-0.pdf

Amusingly, the document to which you link makes absolutely no mention of the 'o'clock' rule.

What it does have is a diagram of someone approaching a roundabout in the left lane in order to take the second exit off the roundabout.

The guidelines it gives for an 'intermediate' exit - not the first or last - exit is to select the 'appropriate lane.'

The only situation where it explicitly instructs the use of the right-hand lane is when taking the last exit or going full circle.

vibe666

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Amusingly, the document to which you link makes absolutely no mention of the 'o'clock' rule.

What it does have is a diagram of someone approaching a roundabout in the left lane in order to take the second exit off the roundabout.

The guidelines it gives for an 'intermediate' exit - not the first or last - exit is to select the 'appropriate lane.'

The only situation where it explicitly instructs the use of the right-hand lane is when taking the last exit or going full circle.

the 12 o'clock rule is a simple way to describe the correct use of roundabouts that anyone can understand. its just an easy way to avoid having to 'get out a protractor' as a previous poster mentioned.

the 12 o'clock rule is taught simply because it's a lot easier for people to imagine a clock face and approaching it from a 6 o'clock position and working out their exit from there than trying to figure out the correct lane for their exit based on how many degrees round their exit is.

try it for yourself. look at that document again and mentally overlay a clock face on top of the roundabout images and you'll find it is correct.

seriously, why are people still arguing about this? the numbered exit system has been clearly shown to be incorrect, why are people having such a hard time accepting it and moving on?

i'll be the first to admit i'm an absolute cnut when it comes to arguing a point, but when it gets to a point where i realise i'm wrong about something i'm also the first one to put up my hands and admit it and apologise, but it appears i'm very much in the minority here.

the numbered exit system is wrong, plain and simple. the 12 o'clock rule is correct, both in the OP's case AND according to Irish law so just accept it and lets move on.

I've emailed the AA to ask them to correct Conor Faughnan's blog post and to contact the RSA directly if they are in any doubt, so I guess we'll see what comes of that. I'm actually baffled that the guy is still in the job tbh, although the situation with the government has more than proved that being incompetent and totally unable to perform the basic functions of your job does not preclude you from actually being employed to do it.

hi5

Slick50 wrote: »

That loks like a pretty definitive "road sign" showing the first exit to be the primary route with two lanes. I don't think anybody would argue against using the righthand lane for the second exit in this situation.

What has been discussed up to now is where there are no road signs or markings defining which lane to use.

That roadsign was linked on post #46 of this thread;)

PaddyTheNth

vibe666 wrote: »

the 12 o'clock rule

It's not a rule, its an interpretation of the rules of the road. As is the numbered system.

It may be that the o'clock interpretation is a better representation of the rules of the road.

However why many people are still arguing is that there doesn't appear to be a logical reason as to why the o'clock interpretation is better (better in terms of being logical, consistent and safe for road users) than the sequential system which it has apparently replaced. (ie the law is an ass)

Triangla

First or Second exit off: Left Lane

Third ext: Right Lane

Unless otherwise signposted.

The fact that more than 50% are wrong here is not surprising. Irish are shocking on roundabouts.

zynaps

vibe666 wrote: »

seriously, why are people still arguing about this? the numbered exit system has been clearly shown to be incorrect, why are people having such a hard time accepting it and moving on?

I'm not arguing so much about whether either system is "correct" - my point is that the official literature, contrary to your earlier suggestions, has said the complete opposite until very recently.
And with that in mind, it's quite ridiculous to accuse drivers who follow the older "left lane for first two exits" rule of being idiots, or:

vibe666 wrote: »

I'm actually baffled that the guy is still in the job tbh, although the situation with the government has more than proved that being incompetent and totally unable to perform the basic functions of your job does not preclude you from actually being employed to do it.

Honestly, are you suggesting that he checks the ROTR every day for updates on rules of thumb for roundabouts? And if he doesn't he's a "muppet" who should be fired?

Do you not agree that confusion on this point is understandable given the confused official literature on exactly the same topic? Do you read the ROTR every year just in case they've changed individual rules? No?

R.O.R

Triangla wrote: »

First or Second exit off: Left Lane

Third ext: Right Lane

Unless otherwise signposted.

The fact that more than 50% are wrong here is not surprising. Irish are shocking on roundabouts.

The fact that you yourself are in the >50% wrong bracket, but start slagging other road users, is what I find most surprising.

zynaps

Welease wrote: »

But it's still clear in the link you provided.. even though it uses first, second exit.. Any exit after 12 o'clock must be entered via the right hand lane.. I honestly don't see how people can misinterpret this.

"IF LEAVING BY ANY EXIT AFTER THE 12 O’CLOCK POSITION, [FONT=JDFAJG+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=JDFAJG+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]approach and enter the roundabout in the right hand lane signalling a right turn. "[/FONT][/FONT]

It's completely ambiguous. Which rule takes precedence - the 12 o'clock position or the second exit? There's no way to tell from that text.

Zubeneschamali

Triangla wrote: »

The fact that more than 50% are wrong here is not surprising.

The fact that I drive a Mr. Fusion nuclear powered flying car is not surprising.

Because it's not a fact.

squod

Passed a roundabout today with only two exits, both past twelve o'clock and two lanes leading to it! The silly gubberment should close that left hand lane obviously............... or put up a sign or all three.:rolleyes:

Welease

zynaps wrote: »

It's completely ambiguous. Which rule takes precedence - the 12 o'clock position or the second exit? There's no way to tell from that text.

It's clearly stated.. The precedence is right lane for anything past 12.

If leaving by ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock, then use the right hand lane....

It doesn't matter if it's the first, second, third, fourth, whatever... if you are leaving by ANY EXIT after12 o'clock then you must be in the right hand lane..

For the OP, the second exit is past 12 o'clock, so they must enter via the right hand lane..

zynaps

Welease wrote: »

It's clearly stated..

If leaving by ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock, then use the right hand lane....

No, it's not quite clearly stated.

Let's call the three rules A, B and C:
A: If leaving by the first exit, use the left-hand lane
B: If leaving by the second exit, use the left-hand lane
C: If leaving by ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock, use the right-hand lane

A and B do not conflict with each other. However C can conflict (as in the OP's case) with B (and in weird cases, A).

You are interpreting this as "If C applies, do that. ELSE if A or B apply, do them".

It could just as validly be interpreted as "If A or B apply, do them. ELSE if C applies, do that". In fact this is logically simpler - apply the first rule which matches the current situation.

Presumably this ambiguity is why they replaced that text with a simplified version which does not refer to numbered exits at all

Welease

zynaps wrote: »

No, it's not quite clearly stated.

Let's call the three rules A, B and C:
A: If leaving by the first exit, use the left-hand lane
B: If leaving by the second exit, use the left-hand lane
C: If leaving by ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock, use the right-hand lane

A and B do not conflict with each other. However C can conflict (as in the OP's case) with B (and in weird cases, A).

You are interpreting this as "If C applies, do that. ELSE if A or B apply, do them".

It could just as validly be interpreted as "If A or B apply, do them. ELSE if C applies, do that". In fact this is logically simpler - apply the first rule which matches the current situation.

Well i disagree
c) overrides a) and b) because it clearly states ANY EXIT after 12..
It is an explicit statement that overrides A or B if that condition is met.. Not the other way round. The key word is Any here.. if it was "subsequent" or any other wording then i would agree.

Edit - What is ambigeous is if the 3rd exit is before the 12 o clock... but that wasn't the OP's question.

zynaps wrote: »

Presumably this ambiguity is why they replaced that text with a simplified version which does not refer to numbered exits at all

lol true.. but back to the OP's question.. the new texts still show that the right hand lane is the correct lane also (so I'm not sure why so many other people are still trying to argue that its the left lane)

BigEejit

Answer the question I put in above:
In my diagram, if the driving test inspector asked you to take the 4th exit (not mentioning 12 o clock rule or anything, just saying "take the 4th exit"), and there were two lanes entering the roundabout .... which one would you be in when you entered the roundabout?

According to a fair proportion of the people who posted in this thread they would be in the right hand lane entering the roundabout and according to the rules the inspectors use which was posted earlier, those posters should fail.

Vertakill

vibe666 wrote: »

the 12 o'clock rule is a simple way to describe the correct use of roundabouts that anyone can understand. its just an easy way to avoid having to 'get out a protractor' as a previous poster mentioned.

Contradictory?
The only time I can think of using a protractor on a roundabout to guage exits is when I would be using the clock face method. If you number the exits, you cannot get confused... ever.
Using the clock face method on a really large roundabout that you cannot see what's on the other side of... yeah that's not confusing at all!

Personally, I use the left lane for the first 2 exits and then the right lane for anything after that.

I don't like the idea of getting into the left hand lane and passing 4 or 5 exits without actually taking them solely on the basis that they occured before I hit the 12 o clock point.

If someone is travelling on the inside lane parallel to you and they're taking the 3 o clock exit, they may need to exit the roundabout while you're plodding along in their way, passing a multitude of exits in the outter lane.

Welease

Vertakill wrote: »

Contradictory?
The only time I can think of using a protractor on a roundabout to guage exits is when I would be using the clock face method. If you number the exits, you cannot get confused... ever.
Using the clock face method on a really large roundabout that you cannot see what's on the other side of... yeah that's not confusing at all!

I'm not saying they don't exist but can you name many large roundabouts (that you can't see the far side of), that don't have a sign showing the configuration upon approach?

Vertakill

BigEejit wrote: »

Answer the question I put in above:
In my diagram, if the driving test inspector asked you to take the 4th exit (not mentioning 12 o clock rule or anything, just saying "take the 4th exit"), and there were two lanes entering the roundabout .... which one would you be in when you entered the roundabout?

According to a fair proportion of the people who posted in this thread they would be in the right hand lane entering the roundabout and according to the rules the inspectors use which was posted earlier, those posters should fail.

I'd take the right hand lane. If you take the left lane, you have to pass 3 exits on the outter most lane... which I think is a nuisance for people looking to join the roundabout and also could cause an issue if someone was driving parallel to you on the roundabout and was looking to exit, while you were passing all the exits.

Viper_JB

Welease wrote: »

lol true.. but back to the OP's question.. the new texts still show that the right hand lane is the correct lane also (so I'm not sure why so many other people are still trying to argue that its the left lane)

Probably because so many people on here learned to drive before 06, like me, I learned for my test by the RotR book the "counting the exits method" and it does make sense as it is very clear cut, where as there is plenty of room for misunderstanding with the 12 o clock rule, Kinsale round about in cork springs to mind as there are more then one exit whch maybe considered as of being in or abouts the 12 o clock position from some entry points.

However when actually driving on the roads you learn pretty quickly that every round about in Ireland needs to be treated on an individual basis, pretty much the first time you come up to a round about with 3-4 lanes onto it the majority of the rules are thrown out the window by a lot of drivers, all in all they've been about as successful at putting rules in for round abouts as they have been putting rules in place for the banking system.

Dozen Wicked Words

Rules of the Road - Using roundabouts

IT doesn't matter the shape of the roundabout, or the geography of the exits,
Surely to fukc people can't honestly believe the Right hand lane is the correct answer, read the first couple of pages of this and got so depressed I couldn't read anymore. So if the video above has been posted already sorry.