Sky Sports presenters making sexist comments

hatrickpatrick

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

HatrickPatrick - as already stated, if you want to discuss double standards from a male perspective, there is a thread here.

I wasn't really trying to start a discussion of it from a guys' perspective, it's more a challenge to the ladies who are bashing him, to justify the fact that they apparently have the "right" to do this on TV whilst we do not.

Ickle Magoo

And do you think all women just love day-time telly and think whatever vacuous tripe dribbling out of the Loose Women studios is just fabulous while jumping up and down about Sky sports presenters? If not then I'm not sure what point you are making and why you would think justification or defence of that programme is necessary in order to have an opinion on a completely different one.

The world would be a better place if Loose Women never darkened our telly screens again because it's banal over-generalised nonsense - not sure who you expect to find that would argue otherwise but that, after all, is the whole remit of the show.

What that has to do with sports presenters who insult specific professionals based entirely on their gender and make lewd gestures to female colleagues all of which have zero to do with their employment duties, I don't know.

merlie

I am glad the mic was left on and they were caught! I do think that Mr Gray has issues if he can't move with the times!

The second tape that was leaked shows his bad behaviour in front of a female colleague. I would not like to be the presenter who would use that mic after him! Euw!

All I can say is that Sky did the right thing in giving him the boot and not a moment to soon! I would have hated to think that if the sound hadn't been on, he would have gotten away with this type of behaviour!

ztoical

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I wasn't really trying to start a discussion of it from a guys' perspective, it's more a challenge to the ladies who are bashing him, to justify the fact that they apparently have the "right" to do this on TV whilst we do not.

I don't watch the likes of Loose women so can't comment on the content of that show but I certainly don't think anyone has the right to insult or degrade anyone based simply on their gender, race, etc etc However there is a difference between a talk show where it is a direct part of the programing and is scripted [scripted for those sorts of shows does not mean every line is written but rather the topic of conversation has been approved by the producers] and meant to be aired on the show and a host making snide comments off camera. Had they had the guts to say it live on the air, brought up valid issues like her age/training/past performance at other matches and been open to discuss the issue with callers to the show and really air their issue with a female official then fine. I've seen plenty of sports shows joke about women not knowing the off side rule and the like over the years but always felt it was done in a light hearted manner and took no offence but this was different.

Distorted

What I found really telling, in addition to what has already been said, is that the linesman they were criticising had been properly trained to do her job, and was doing it well. And Gray and Keys seem to lack proper training for the job they're doing.

I felt so sorry for a young girl like that linesman having such comments said about her, when she was only doing her job. You could see the total concentration on her face. Gray and Keys could learn a lot from her.

I've never actually come across such comments myself before, so I was a bit surprised to hear this sort of thing being broadcast to the whole nation. Its something that I would associate maybe with people in the 1970s, or something.

speedboatchase

The oddest thing I've found in the media's coverage is that you have rags like The Sun complaining about sexism, when they feature topless 19 year olds on page 3?

Couple that with the fact they had a photo of the linesman in a short skirt and the headline 'Get 'em off' on their homepage yesterday, which was referring to getting Keys and Gray off the airwaves (though obviously intended to work with the skirt picture). Clearly the Sun felt that the sexist discussion needs a bit of sexing up :rolleyes:

I wish people would stop bigging up Sian's performance at the game too, especially when it's 'in spite' of what Keys and Gray said - of course she did a good job, that's her job!

The worst thing about her treatment is that it's as if the media (and plenty of male commentators) are fighting her battle for her and striding in like white knights. I imagine she'll get a standing ovation in the next game she officiates, when I'd reckon all she wants is her name out of the papers at this stage.

hatrickpatrick

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And do you think all women just love day-time telly and think whatever vacuous tripe dribbling out of the Loose Women studios is just fabulous while jumping up and down about Sky sports presenters? If not then I'm not sure what point you are making and why you would think justification or defence of that programme is necessary in order to have an opinion on a completely different one.

The world would be a better place if Loose Women never darkened our telly screens again because it's banal over-generalised nonsense - not sure who you expect to find that would argue otherwise but that, after all, is the whole remit of the show.

What that has to do with sports presenters who insult specific professionals based entirely on their gender and make lewd gestures to female colleagues all of which have zero to do with their employment duties, I don't know.

It's nothing to do with whether you like the show or not, it's whether you agree with the principle that your gender can get away with something we can't, in the context of 'equality'.
Equality should mean you lose your perks as well as gaining ours. I have no issue with guys having no advantages in society provided we also lose our disadvantages.
In other words, unless you criticize those double standards you have no right to criticize Andy Gray.
Personally I don't criticize either, as I believe in freedom of speech.

hatrickpatrick

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

What that has to do with sports presenters who insult specific professionals based entirely on their gender and make lewd gestures to female colleagues all of which have zero to do with their employment duties, I don't know.

Once again, it's because this kind of thing happens absolutely all the time in both genders but it's only demonized and condemned when men are the perpetrators.
Hypocrisy and double standards have no place whatsoever in society. One rule for everyone, please.

Ickle Magoo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again, it's because this kind of thing happens absolutely all the time in both genders but it's only demonized and condemned when men are the perpetrators.
Hypocrisy and double standards have no place whatsoever in society. One rule for everyone, please.

Again, double standards = other thread. Crass generalisations without a shred of evidence belong nowhere. Please don't post on this again here, this thread is, as the title suggests, about sky presenters making sexist comments.

parker kent

Interesting piece in The Guardian today on the culture at Sky Sports. It should be obvious to anybody who watches Sky Sports regularly that this behaviour is common place. I'd also note the comments stating that they bully new male employees as well. Of course, this article is hearsay, but I imagine there is much that is truthful.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/26/andy-gray-richard-keys-sixist

The only surprise about the events leading to Andy Gray's sacking as the most famous voice in football yesterday was that he had not made a similar gaffe in public before. That is the view of three women who have all held frontline roles at Sky Sports.

Fearing repercussions that could harm their careers if they were identified, the three spoke to the Guardian on condition of anonymity. But despite talking separately, their views echoed each other's; each describing the bullying and sexist culture they feel Gray and his co-presenter, Richard Keys, have fostered.

One former Sky journalist said: "It came as absolutely no surprise to me to see this. The surprise is that we haven't seen more. It's the kind of language and vocabulary that is used within the Sky football department all the time."

Another, who still works for Sky, said: "There are many stories of their shocking behaviour. [Gray and Keys] are hated by the crews. It's a climate of fear pervading. But as long as everyone is laughing and it's a joke it's all right isn't it? I believe sexism is systemic and not openly challenged but goes underground or disguised as jokes or 'just banter'."

The third separately cited how "just banter" is claimed as a defence, and explained why that claim holds no water. "Live football is well known as something everyone wants to work on. But no one wants to work with those two. They took the piss out of a runner for having no money. It's nasty bullying with an edge. It's not just banter."

All three women agree that Barney Francis, who has been managing director of Sky Sports since his appointment 18 months ago, has improved matters. His decision yesterday summarily to dismiss Gray shows that he will scarcely indulge a chauvinistic culture any longer. One said: "There has been a culture of bullying and sexism around Sky for a very long time, but recently Sky have been managing the bullying a lot better through changes in management. There were rumours of people being told off and that bullying behaviour was unacceptable."

Yet despite the positive steps made by Francis, the women all expressed a feeling that there must be more widespread surgery to eradicate what they described as a patriarchy that limits women's promotion prospects. "There's this blokey vibe and it's like a lads' club," said one. "At the BBC the head of sport is Barbara Slater. Sky are a long way from that situation.

"During my time at Sky Sports News it wasn't hidden that women were appointed to present on it primarily because of the way they looked. You can see how Andy and Richard are behaving like that because the people at the top have employed people without any experience. Clearly that's sexist and it means at Sky you are always looked down on as a woman involved in sport, full stop."

That view chimed with another's view. She said: "You'd get bosses saying, 'It's just fruit on the barrow.' I found it a very sexist working environment. The production staff found it incredibly frustrating: they're younger for a start than the management.

"But it permeated through the whole culture. When Sky Sports News first started the girls were in suits. Sky was still about the image but they wanted women who were interested in sport. "Any monkey can read an autocue and you can't build passion for what you do from nothing. But if you're a woman you were there as decoration. Anything else was a bonus. It's not that there is a criterion about how the girls look. It's that it is the main criterion."

Sky told the Guardian that it hires its presenters principally for their abilities as journalists and presenters. Nonetheless, one of the former Sky journalists pointed out that the fact that Gray and Keys's unreconstructed comments were leaked into the public domain reflects the glee that Sky employees would feel at their downfall.

"I think deep down Richard and Andy are just bullies," she said. "They bully new men in the game as well. It's how they operate. They don't have many friends there but after 20 years they've always been at the top of the game and earning a ridiculous amount of money, so I guess who's laughing?

"But they have ruled the roost for a long time and upset people for a long time. They got into bother with someone who had a schadenfreude motive. I am just surprised that you have a broadcaster with experience of 20 years talking like that in front of a mic and not expecting it to get out. It was not the first time they were caught saying things they shouldn't say. They think they can get away with murder. How arrogant."

A Sky spokesman said last night: "There was evidence at the weekend and we took action. Today there has been new evidence and we have taken entirely appropriate action. If people are saying there is a culture of sexism here that shows we don't tolerate it."

Chucky the tree

parker kent wrote: »

It should be obvious to anybody who watches Sky Sports regularly that this behaviour is common place.

Don't agree with this. Any examples? Seems to be easy to claim now, but I can't see how anyone would have thought sexism was very common in sky sports from just watching the channel.

Wolfe Tone

And as for it being "blokey" its only natural. Men in general simply have much more interest in sport than women.

Sticking in "token women" as seems to be the suggestion in that article(reference to having a woman in charge) is not the way to go about it.

amacachi

Whatever peoples' views are on this it seems to be a proper stitch up of Gray. I'm glad he's gone though.

Corsendonk

Fantastic story for Murdoch media to run with to keep the Andy Coulson story low in the media sights. Gray was running out of time with Sky anyway so no loss to them. ESPN are serious competition to them so I imagine they were going to overhaul the football coverage for next year.

Sky Sports reporting always struck me as a toned down version of Nuts magazine with eye candy female presenters and the socerettes on the Saturday Morning show setting the tone.

Sadly the biggest loser is Sian Massey who now will have unwanted attention directed at her.

Ickle Magoo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

And as for it being "blokey" its only natural. Men in general simply have much more interest in sport than women.

Sticking in "token women" as seems to be the suggestion in that article(reference to having a woman in charge) is not the way to go about it.

I would agree with that to some extent - look at the F1 dollybirds holding up the the driver numbers...it's certainly not just footballing programmes, nor just Sky for that matter, that has a history of male presenters and women present purely for aesthetics - and yes, shoving in more women for the sake of having more women present is not the way to solve sexism, I think probably quite the opposite in fact.

amacachi wrote:

Whatever peoples' views are on this it seems to be a proper stitch up of Gray. I'm glad he's gone though.

Making yourself unpopular through bullying or boorish behaviour always tends to have a nasty habit of biting you back on the butt - perhaps this will serve as a warning for any other auld relics behaving in a similar manner? No bad thing.

amacachi

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Making yourself unpopular through bullying or boorish behaviour always tends to have a nasty habit of biting you back on the butt - perhaps this will serve as a warning for any other auld relics behaving in a similar manner? No bad thing.

Funny how it's taken 20 years though. Once Gray makes his formal compaint more will become clear. Don't think it's the kind of thing that boards like people mentioning with the hysterical fear of lawsuits. :pac:

fatmammycat

Keys has resigned too. Although frankly after his talk Sport interview today where he blamed 'dark forces' amongst other things on his current situation, I am not surprised.

Wolfe Tone

This is completely over the top, two men losing their job over that, complete bollocks, a fine and suspension tops.

fatmammycat

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

This is completely over the top, two men losing their job over that, complete bollocks, a fine and suspension tops.

He reisgned. I assume you have watched the 'did you smash it?' video. He ruined himself with that and with today's interview.

Ickle Magoo

amacachi wrote: »

Funny how it's taken 20 years though. Once Gray makes his formal compaint more will become clear....

Not really - have a think about the kind of behaviours and language that were not considered offensive to use years ago compared with today, even the differences in the dynamics and gender representation on floor and in production teams over the past 20 years. There's also a new MD that hasn't been scared to start ringing in the changes even if they had to start with the big names - and the floor staff and production team on Sky is going to be on average much younger and so much less tolerant of the kind of old fashioned boorishness that has gotten Gray & Keys into such hot water. Rather than being surprised it's taken 20 years, I think it was just a matter of time before the in-house contempt for Gray/Kayes overshadowed their public popularity.

I have no doubt that it suited Murdoch that the commentators placed themselves in an untenable position but they were in an untenable position first and foremost because it is no longer acceptable to behave that way - I'm no legal expert but I wouldn't think Gray has a leg to stand on in terms of legal challenge for reinstatement; though perhaps an action demanding an investigation into who leaked the information and no doubt breached a privacy clause or two in the process is going to be forthcoming?

Wolfe Tone

Forced to resign I would say.


Its too far tbh

fatmammycat

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Forced to resign I would say.


Its too far tbh

His interview today would not have helped matters.

Chucky the tree

This was the other video of Richard Keys. It's just creepy, talking about an ex of Jamie Redknapps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX7noqN6SOI

amacachi

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Not really - have a think about the kind of behaviours and language that were not considered offensive to use years ago compared with today, even the differences in the dynamics and gender representation on floor and in production teams over the past 20 years. There's also a new MD that hasn't been scared to start ringing in the changes even if they had to start with the big names - and the floor staff and production team on Sky is going to be on average much younger and so much less tolerant of the kind of old fashioned boorishness that has gotten Gray & Keys into such hot water. Rather than being surprised it's taken 20 years, I think it was just a matter of time before the in-house contempt for Gray/Kayes overshadowed their public popularity.

I have no doubt that it suited Murdoch that the commentators placed themselves in an untenable position but they were in an untenable position first and foremost because it is no longer acceptable to behave that way - I'm no legal expert but I wouldn't think Gray has a leg to stand on in terms of legal challenge for reinstatement; though perhaps an action demanding an investigation into who leaked the information and no doubt breached a privacy clause or two in the process is going to be forthcoming?

I'm not talking about him making a complaint about his dismissal, but can you think of another story around that part of Murdoch's little empire is involved in? Sky could've fcuked Gray out at any point but in their eyes they had no reason to, there must be stacks of tapes of crap exchanges between Keys and Gray but it's only now that they have another reason to get rid of Gray that these tapes "leaked".

Ickle Magoo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Forced to resign I would say.


Its too far tbh

Why too far? Why would any place of employment want to keep employees that were causing such discord within their offices? I think it would be very unusual indeed for any employer NOT to take action with an employee making the kinds of statements and gestures to or about women that Gray et al did - add to the mix that these are not isolated incidents and evidence of their behaviour is now very much in the public domain and a multinational is not going to risk getting it's name dragged through the mud for a couple of presenters who pocket millions and aren't actually that popular any more.

Edited to add:

amacachi wrote: »

I'm not talking about him making a complaint about his dismissal, but can you think of another story around that part of Murdoch's little empire is involved in? Sky could've fcuked Gray out at any point but in their eyes they had no reason to, there must be stacks of tapes of crap exchanges between Keys and Gray but it's only now that they have another reason to get rid of Gray that these tapes "leaked".

I presume you are talking about the phone tapping? Aye? It could certainly be a cynical move on the part of Murdoch, I wouldn't put it past him - but it could also have been a new MD who found themselves with a heap of disgruntled staff and knowing that Gray has no qualms about launching legal action had to make sure Gray/Keys were absolutely hung by their own petard while on his watch so he was covered.

WesternNight

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This was the other video of Richard Keys. It's just creepy, talking about an ex of Jamie Redknapps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX7noqN6SOI

Oh lovely, that's just delightful.

The sad thing is that it's not in the slightest bit uncommon.

amacachi

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I presume you are talking about the phone tapping? Aye? It could certainly be a cynical move on the part of Murdoch, I wouldn't put it past him - but it could also have been a new MD who found themselves with a heap of disgruntled staff and knowing that Gray has no qualms about launching legal action had to make sure Gray/Keys were absolutely hung by their own petard while on his watch so he was covered.

Yup, the phone-tapping. Should be some fun and games over the next while with that.

Wolfe Tone

WesternNight wrote: »

Oh lovely, that's just delightful.

The sad thing is that it's not in the slightest bit uncommon.

Its not that bad in fairness

Ickle Magoo

I think the lack of response by everyone else really highlights how inappropriate it is - a couple of 15 year olds bigging it up, understandable - a middle-aged man in the company of paid professionals within the hearing of a multitude of lighting, sounds, camera, production, editing, etc staff - terrible judgement, really cringe-worthy.

fatmammycat

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its not that bad in fairness

It IS that bad. It's actually disgusting.
The excellent Three and In explains better than I can why..

http://threeandin.com/2011/01/26/richard-keys-has-to-go-too/