WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

gizmo555 · 13-12-2010 1:05pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I still cannot for the life of me understand how they were allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter when it was clearly murder.

The manslaughter plea was accepted because the IRA put the witnesses needed to prove the murder charges in fear of their lives, to the extent that one witness accepted an 18 month jail sentence for contempt of court, rather than testify.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 13-12-2010 1:06pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

You have mentioned that several times.

The old IRA murdered policemen as well, were they criminals?

Are you saying 80 plus thousand people voted for murderers and criminals?

Seems like your living in the past and out of touch with reality.

Not a valid comparison. Since 1986 Sinn Fein have recognised Dail Eireann. You cannot run for parliament and at the same time condone attacks(and in this case a murderous attack) on the police force of that parliament. The old IRA did not recognise the free state so it puts their attacks in the same context of PIRA attacking RUC.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 1:09pm

Hmm, a little more reading about the murder of completely innocent Jim Curran by a certain IRA/Sinn Fein man ties a few things together...

Detectives investigating the murder of Jim Curran were yesterday searching for the suspect who, local people say, disappeared from the area immediately after the killing.

According to local people, the Sinn Fein activist is highly placed in the republican organisation and is close friends with Pearse McCauley, one of the men convicted of the manslaughter of Det Garda Jerry McCabe. Another close associate is former IRA prisoner Nessan Quinlivan who was extradited to Britain on explosives charges in the Nineties.

Yesterday, detectives investigating the murder raided a house belonging to a SF election worker in their search for the chief suspect.

Three people were arrested and released after questioning during the week and gardai are understood to have received a number of eye witness statements to the incident in which Mr Curran, 47, a father of one, was shot in the head at point blank range.

Local people said Mr Curran had gone to the Green Lizard pub for a quiet drink. He had been involved in a dispute with an IRA man. A man in his mid-40s who had been drinking in the pub calmly walked up behind Mr Curran and shot him three times in full view of about 30 people. The man then walked out.

Mr Curran had previously spoken out about the fact that local IRA figures were involved in taking "protection" money from well-known drug dealers in the south inner city. In return for these payments the IRA allow the dealers to continue with their evil business.

Unlike the murder of Robert McCartney by the IRA in Belfast, a number of witnesses have come forward.

Sunday Independent 10th April, 2005

So the guy who murdered this completely innocent man was a friend of the guy who murdered completely innocent Gerry McCabe. I long for the socialist paradise Sinn Fein will bring to this country, where speaking out about corruption means the death penalty.

danbohan · 13-12-2010 1:11pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

The manslaughter plea was accepted because the IRA put the witnesses needed to prove the murder charges in fear of their lives, to the extent that one witness accepted an 18 month jail sentence for contempt of court, rather than testify.

proof ? did the man say that the reason he was not testifying was due to threats ? ,

meglome · 13-12-2010 1:11pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I can't say they don't do any good at local level, but I do know that it turned out that some of their anti-drug 'action on the ground' (i.e. violence) turned out to be a front for wiping out dealers that weren't paying republicans their cut of profits.

All I'm saying is SF are not all bad. Doesn't mean I vote for them or I support them.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I hope Jim Curran appreciates that he was the victim of a war.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ira-boss-goes-into-hiding-as-witnesses-to-dublin-pub-slaying-defy-intimidation-466616.html

I hope that wasn't directed at me because as I said I'm no Sinn Fein supporter. There's a difference between seeing they do some things right and some things wrong, and actually supporting them.

danbohan · 13-12-2010 1:15pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm, a little more reading about the murder of completely innocent Jim Curran by a certain IRA/Sinn Fein man ties a few things together...

So the guy who murdered this completely innocent man was a friend of the guy who murdered completely innocent Gerry McCabe. I long for the socialist paradise Sinn Fein will bring to this country, where speaking out about corruption means the death penalty.

we can always have very brave boardsies like you to speak out against it , maybe you could speak out against british /unionist murders against nationalists as well ?

Lonesome Boatman · 13-12-2010 1:15pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not a valid comparison. Since 1986 Sinn Fein have recognised Dail Eireann. You cannot run for parliament and at the same time condone attacks(and in this case a murderous attack) on the police force of that parliament. The old IRA did not recognise the free state so it puts their attacks in the same context of PIRA attacking RUC.

I didn't specify which case, my point was the old IRA used the same tactics as the provos, including targeting policemen. A lot of people see the old IRA as heroes then at the same time call the provos criminals and murderers. Im highlighting this hypocrisy and not talking about McCabe.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 1:17pm

meglome wrote: »

All I'm saying is SF are not all bad. Doesn't mean I vote for them or I support them.

Not at all, I was agreeing with your post - it's possible that they may do some good at local level, just that what I had heard wasn't the best example of it.

Lonesome Boatman · 13-12-2010 1:17pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm, a little more reading about the murder of completely innocent Jim Curran by a certain IRA/Sinn Fein man ties a few things together...

So the guy who murdered this completely innocent man was a friend of the guy who murdered completely innocent Gerry McCabe. I long for the socialist paradise Sinn Fein will bring to this country, where speaking out about corruption means the death penalty.

You shouldn't take everything you read in the media as the gospel truth you know.

whippet · 13-12-2010 1:17pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

You have mentioned that several times.

The old IRA murdered policemen as well, were they criminals?

Are you saying 80 plus thousand people voted for murderers and criminals?

Seems like your living in the past and out of touch with reality.

That is exactly what I am saying.

My inlaws are all from Belfast and my FatherInLaw actually had to leave belfast as everytime he tried to set up a business he had the 'boys' in offering security. Eventually he gave up and moved all his business to Dublin.

I am not out of touch with reality at all.

To hear SF supporters coming on here and defending the actions of murderers and drug dealers is sickening.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 1:18pm

danbohan wrote: »

we can always have very brave boardsies like you to speak out against it , maybe you could speak out against british /unionist murders against nationalists as well ?

I do. What's your point? This thread is about Sinn Fein's links to serious criminality. If you want to start a thread about the PUP's links to murderous criminals, be my guest. Fortunately for me, the PUP aren't standing for election in my country.

Slydice · 13-12-2010 1:18pm

What I think really is annoying about this issue is how stupid the average person is getting treated.

There's no proof from either side.

Then I goto google news and see this:

Adams denies Wikileaks claims on NI robbery
RTE.ie - ‎11 minutes ago‎
or
Adams rejects Wikileaks claims over NI bank raid
Irish Times - Gerry Moriarty - ‎1 hour ago‎

So, now it's wikileaks who is making the claims? WTF. It is in its balls making the claims. It just publishes leaks.

Then... It's a second hand account of Bertie "do ya a deal" Ahern. Now some people are acting like everything this man says must be true.

I'm ****ing lost. I suspect most people reading about this are too.

What is really annoying is that biased commentators want everyone else to take their side of this story and that they are the only ones that seem to be talking about it

Lonesome Boatman · 13-12-2010 1:19pm

whippet wrote: »

That is exactly what I am saying.

My inlaws are all from Belfast and my FatherInLaw actually had to leave belfast as everytime he tried to set up a business he had the 'boys' in offering security. Eventually he gave up and moved all his business to Dublin.

I am not out of touch with reality at all.

To hear SF supporters coming on here and defending the actions of murderers and drug dealers is sickening.

Hopefully your consistent then and regard the men who helped free the 26 counties as murderous criminals.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 13-12-2010 1:19pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

I didn't specify which case, my point was the old IRA used the same tactics as the provos, including targeting policemen. A lot of people see the old IRA as heroes then at the same time call the provos criminals and murderers. Im highlighting this hypocrisy and not talking about McCabe.

Ok well you said that in response to a post about Jerry McCabe. It looked like you were equating the murder of McCabe with old IRA attacks on policemen, which as per Sinn Fein/IRA 1986 recognition of the Dail, is not the same thing.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 1:20pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

You shouldn't take everything you read in the media as the gospel truth you know.

I don't. That doesn't mean that the report I quoted is not true - I notice you took a leave out of Gerry Adam's book there and used a form of words that implied it wasn't factual without actually saying that, so you can't be caught out later.

Here's a tip for you - you shouldn't take everything you hear from Sinn Fein as true either. But you know that.

whippet · 13-12-2010 1:22pm

it's not 'bertie's opinion' ... it was cabled as the opinion of the Irish Government, and that the Government had evidence to back it up.

a communication like this wouldn't have been sent unless it was formal, this wasn't bertie mumbling to a mate over a pint of Bass in Fagans .. this was an opinion of the government ... of which Bertie was a member.

I think it would be folly to dismiss the communication due to Bertie's laughable personality currently. Remember Bertie was involved in very intense negotiations at the time and the decade preceeding this. The goverments sources would have had a lot of inside knowledge ....

Lonesome Boatman · 13-12-2010 1:25pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't. That doesn't mean that the report I quoted is not true - I notice you took a leave out of Gerry Adam's book there and used a form of words that implied it wasn't factual without actually saying that, so you can't be caught out later.

Here's a tip for you - you shouldn't take everything you hear from Sinn Fein as true either. But you know that.

I got the impression you read it in there and took it as fact from your earlier post.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 1:32pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

I got the impression you read it in there and took it as fact from your earlier post.

Here's what I believe. Sinn Fein/IRA activists took protection money from drug dealers in Dublin. They did this while pretending to have a stance against drugs, and having previously been involved in vigilantism against drug dealers to win over working class communities ravaged by drugs.

One of the these Sinn Fein/IRA men, Bernard Dempsey (who worked for O'Snodaigh - what a gallery of rogues that guy is involved with) was seen by an ordinary, decent man receiving money from a known heroin dealer. He challenged Dempsey about this, and by way of revenge (and probably a warning to others), Curran was executed in public by this Sinn Fein/IRA man.

Are you going to pretend that O'Snodaigh and all this guy's Sinn Fein/IRA buddies somehow didn't know that he and his gang were getting rich on drug money? And yet he was an election worker for O'Snodaigh and Sinn Fein?

ghostdancer · 13-12-2010 2:14pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well umm.. the IRA/SF (which is specific here, not the generalised insult) certainly didn't agree with you, as they murdered Denis Donaldson.

well they did, seeing as they denied it ever existed, and they were proved right, as it didn't exist, and was orchestrated by the PSNI/MI5.

which is precisely what i said.

as for Donaldson's murder, that was to do with him being a british informer, and if you've something that shows that PIRA were involved, i'd love to see it, seeing as most official sources believe it was dissidents.

ghostdancer · 13-12-2010 2:20pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Just one little thing mate, they weren't released under the GFA. They got out because they were convicted of manslaughter rather than murder and they served their sentences for that. SF did try to get them out on the GFA but the Irish Govt said no

I still cannot for the life of me understand how they were allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter when it was clearly murder.

well it wasn't.

a basic understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter, and the background of the incident, makes it pretty clear it wasn't murder.

gizmo555 · 13-12-2010 2:21pm

danbohan wrote: »

proof ? did the man say that the reason he was not testifying was due to threats ? ,

Witness intimidation to blame: Byrne

by Brian Carroll
GARDA Commissioner Pat Byrne has blamed intimidation of witnesses for the collapse of capital murder charges against four men accused of killing Det Garda Jerry McCabe.
The Commissioner said it was clear that intimidation had led to the substitution of manslaughter charges in place of capital murder, which carries a mandatory 40-year prison sentence.
His comments follow those of the officer who led the McCabe murder investigation, Det Insp John Kerin, who said IRA personnel from Munster had made death threats against one key witness and intimidatory phone calls to two others.
"It is an obvious fact that we had witnesses who did not perform as expected in court. I have no doubt that intimidation played a part in the eventual conclusion of the case," Commissioner Byrne said.
He rejected criticism of the gardaí for failing to use the Witness Protection Programme to prevent the intimidation of key witnesses in the trial.
"The whole approach of the witness protection programme requires agreement on the part of those involved," Commissioner Byrne added.

ghostdancer · 13-12-2010 2:25pm

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

Hopefully your consistent then and regard the men who helped free the 26 counties as murderous criminals.

no, because murdering police officers and children in the 20's, then becoming politicians was perfectly fine apparently....

as is being a member of the IRA in the 70s, then becoming a politician and being part of the current Labour party.

:rolleyes:

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 2:28pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

well it wasn't.

a basic understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter, and the background of the incident, makes it pretty clear it wasn't murder.

I would think that emptying an assault rifle into somebody sitting in a car is definitely a clue that you intend to kill them. And bringing an assault rifle requires forethought. I don't understand the manslaughter conviction either, but I guess it was the best they could do, and it stopped those guys from murdering anyone else for a while at least.

paky · 13-12-2010 2:28pm

jonnybravo wrote: »

Can't say I'm surprised!

http://www.irishexaminer.ie/ireland/ahern-was-convinced-adams-knew-of-bank-raid-139287.html

http://www.irishexaminer.ie/breakingnews/ireland/wikileaks-adams-an-ira-commander-ambassador-told-485440.html

i cant believe this stuff just made rte news headlines. thats it, im never watching rte news again. wikileaks has made the headlines the past 2 weeks in a row. wikileaks is absolute hearsay and has no proven reliable sources. just goes to show how poor rte's journalism is. i hope there not using wikipedia as a historical source. wouldnt suprise me if they were

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 2:30pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

no, because murdering police officers and children in the 20's, then becoming politicians was perfectly fine apparently....

as is being a member of the IRA in the 70s, then becoming a politician and being part of the current Labour party.

:rolleyes:

Straw-man arguments? Which of the leaders in the War of Independence murdered children?

KeithAFC · 13-12-2010 2:30pm

Don't need wikileaks to tell us about Gerry Adams being a commander in the IRA. Everyone knows he was in the IRA. The dogs on the street know.

Monty Burnz · 13-12-2010 2:32pm

paky wrote: »

i cant believe this stuff just made rte news headlines. thats it, im never watching rte news again. wikileaks has made the headlines the past 2 weeks in a row. wikileaks is absolute hearsay and has no proven reliable sources. just goes to show how poor rte's journalism is. i hope there not using wikipedia as a historical source. wouldnt suprise me if they were

I would have thought Wikipedia is the ideal SF historical source. All the activists can edit it like mad to tell their version of events. You for example can create an article about Bernard Dempsey and how he heroically killed JIm Curran. I do believe you said that these SF/IRA men who killed innocent people were heroes only hours ago?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 13-12-2010 2:33pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

well it wasn't.

a basic understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter, and the background of the incident, makes it pretty clear it wasn't murder.

Well I don't want to drag things further off-topic so do you know of any online literature explaining why in this case pointing an AK at someone and firing until they died was considered manslaughter and not murder?

Ciaran500 · 13-12-2010 2:35pm

paky wrote: »

i cant believe this stuff just made rte news headlines. thats it, im never watching rte news again. wikileaks has made the headlines the past 2 weeks in a row. wikileaks is absolute hearsay and has no proven reliable sources. just goes to show how poor rte's journalism is. i hope there not using wikipedia as a historical source. wouldnt suprise me if they were

So they're just making up all these leaks and the American government is condemning them daily even though its all complete lies. Yeah. :rolleyes:

Winty · 13-12-2010 2:39pm

I said a year ago that Martin McGuinness and Pat Doherty "may have had something" to do with millions of cash just walking out of a bank in the middle of Belfast City Centre and all the pro IRA on boards jumped down my throat, well well looks like the may be truth in it.

Thugs dont just disappear to Spain without a retirement plan

The British and Irish Governments's agreed for Gerry and the Bhoys to have the cash if they left and keep their heads down.

WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

Comments