WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

ghostdancer

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That bit is important for me. There isn't a single member of FG or FF alive today who murdered anybody or robbed a bank for 'political reasons' (jokes about how Fianna Failure bankrupted us aside).

If SF abandoned criminality, and stopped defending violence, I'd certainly consider voting for them in say 50 years time when all links to the last 30 years are broken - assuming they sorted out their other policies of course.

you'll be hard-pressed to find a FF or FG member that condemns their party's founders for the murders they carried out. they certainly defend to the hilt the violence their parties carried out.


so the only difference between FG/Ff and SF is that FF/FG's violence happened longer ago than SFs.

D e e

Ah! Bertie thinks it so it must be true! Sigh. Who really believes or gives a toss what Bertie thinks?

I'm not saying SF weren't involved, they probably were, but until there's evidence I won't point fingers. Bertie is hardly a trustworthy source.

That said, even if it's true, who cares, most of us have a feeling SF are involved anyways and they won't be prosecuted.

paky

Joey the lips wrote: »

Am i the only one that suspects the govt has no evidence.....

Am i the only one thats not surprised this apears just before the elections...


Its amazing what trouble the northern bank robbery caused in bringing down the assembley...All with proof...which we have all yet to hear or see.

It so reliable i could have put a bet on it...

yes its quite interesting that it seems to have re emerged since we're so close to the elections. makes me question wikileaks sources and whoes actually running it.

ghostdancer

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Read my post again, and stop demanding things from me in an incorrect and ignorant fashion.

i did.
it's nonsense really. but keep on making daft assumptions about me.


so you're incapable of providing me with any links to the plenty of evidence that apparently exists, that you claim I "clearly know about already."

fair enough.


as i've already said, the IRA probably did it, there's just essentially no evidence in the public domain that they did.

ghostdancer

Joey the lips wrote: »

Am i the only one that suspects the govt has no evidence.....

Am i the only one thats not surprised this apears just before the elections...


Its amazing what trouble the northern bank robbery caused in bringing down the assembley...All with proof...which we have all yet to hear or see.

It so reliable i could have put a bet on it...

don't forget the Stormont Spy Ring, which brought down the assembly.

which turned out to be a massive stunt organised by the PSNI and didn't exist at all....

paky

RandomName2 wrote: »

I think I would have some respect for him if he put his hands up and said

'Lads, you all know I was in the IRA. It is what I believed in. Still do. If necessary I feel that republicans should resort to violence again, but at the moment the political main-stream is the way to go'

I would still disagree with his outlook, but it would have my respect.

He looks like such a slibhin ducking and diving (as usual).

if he did, they would never stop asking him questions every time he was on tv about this murder and that murder... he has to draw the line somewhere and what better way to do that than just denying his involvment altogether.
afterall i dont believe the ira were ever the guilty party as the media constantly portrays.
yes they did some bad things but it was a war

Monty Burnz

paky wrote: »

if he did, they would never stop asking him questions every time he was on tv about this murder and that murder... he has to draw the line somewhere and what better way to do that than just denying his involvment altogether.
afterall i dont believe the ira were ever the guilty party as the media constantly portrays.
yes they did some bad things but it was a war

Funny sort of a war where you murder children at random. Some of us find it a bit harder to forgive that sort of thing.

At 11:58am on 20 March 1993, the telephone help charity The Samaritans received a coded message that a bomb was going to be detonated outside the Boots shop in Liverpool, fifteen miles away from Warrington. Merseyside Police investigated, and also warned the Cheshire Constabulary (who patrolled Warrington) of the threat, but it was too late to evacuate. At 12:12pm two bombs exploded, one outside Boots on Bridge Street and one outside the Argos catalogue store. Eyewitnesses said that "the first explosion drove panicking shoppers into the path of the next blast just seconds later." Buses were organised to ferry people away from the scene and 20 paramedics and crews from 17 ambulances were sent to deal with the aftermath. It was later determined that the bombs had been placed inside cast iron litter bins, causing large amounts of shrapnel.
Three-year-old Johnathan Ball died at the scene, while his babysitter survived. The second victim, 12-year-old Tim Parry, survived the impact with multiple injuries, but died on 25 March 1993 when doctors switched his life support machine off, having asked permission to do so from his family after a series of tests had found minimal brain activity. 54 other people were injured, four of them seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks

Apologies if this is going O/T in addressing the points raised by other posters. To address the timing issue - I'd agree it was suspicious if it was leaked to the media by Fianna Failure, but if this was piled in with all the other Wikileaks material, I think we'll have to call the 'suspicious timing' another SF conspiracy theory that doesn't really stand up to any sort of analysis.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Joey the lips wrote: »

Am i the only one that suspects the govt has no evidence.....

Am i the only one thats not surprised this apears just before the elections...

I don't think so because it looks like this was leaked to wikileaks by an American source. Just good timing for non-SF parties really.

Though still not a huge deal electorally. Everyone knows PIRA did the robbery and have continued voting for them. I really don't for a second believe the posters here suggesting they don't think provos were involved

When you compare the northern bank robbery to other stuff provos did it was a non-event, regardless of the amount of cash taken. If you're going to vote for someone who carried the coffin of a man who blew up a crowded fish shop you're not going to care if he knew about a bank robbery.

Its amazing what trouble the northern bank robbery caused in bringing down the assembley...All with proof...which we have all yet to hear or see.

It so reliable i could have put a bet on it...

IRA were a professional military force. They knew how to pull off the robbery without leaving a trace of their involvement and the people involved in the assembly were well aware of this.

KeithAFC

Joey the lips wrote: »

Am i the only one that suspects the govt has no evidence.....

Am i the only one thats not surprised this apears just before the elections...


Its amazing what trouble the northern bank robbery caused in bringing down the assembley...All with proof...which we have all yet to hear or see.

It so reliable i could have put a bet on it...

The government knows alright. They all know who did it. Sinn Fein, Irish government, Westminster. Lets not kid ourselves. That much money doesn't get nicked without a proper investigation and hounding the people who did it but it was all planned.

Sinn Fein will deny anything anyway because Sinn fein is the IRA.

RandomName2

ghostdancer wrote: »

don't forget the Stormont Spy Ring, which brought down the assembly.

which turned out to be a massive stunt organised by the PSNI and didn't exist at all....

Well umm.. the IRA/SF (which is specific here, not the generalised insult) certainly didn't agree with you, as they murdered Denis Donaldson.

paky

KeithAFC wrote: »

The government knows alright. They all know who did it. Sinn Fein, Irish government, Westminster. Lets not kid ourselves. That much money doesn't get nicked without a proper investigation and hounding the people who did it but it was all planned.

Sinn Fein will deny anything anyway because Sinn fein is the IRA.

the british government was involved aswel so i dont know what your saying.

ya sinn fein is the ira so what? who needs convincing?

paky

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well umm.. the IRA/SF (which is specific here, not the generalised insult) certainly didn't agree with you, as they murdered Denis Donaldson.

proof? could of been the rira, cira or oglaigh na heireann..

Monty Burnz

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

IRA were a professional military force. They knew how to pull off the robbery without leaving a trace of their involvement and the people involved in the assembly were well aware of this.

An interesting statement when viewed in the light of the atrocity I mentioned earlier.

I agree that that the robbery really wasn't the worst thing they've done by a very long way, even if it was a hell of a lot of money. I think it was the timing that caused the problem - the idea that they trying to be in government and cleaning out banks at the same time (insert Fianna Failure joke here ). This is why the murder of Robert McCartney and the campaign of intimidation of his family is another huge stumbling block for me taking SF seriously as a political party of government rather than a gang of thugs - they know exactly who murdered him, and they probably know who chased his innocent family out of their homes (a family whose only crime was to try to get justice for his murder!). But nobody has been convicted of the murder at all.

KeithAFC

paky wrote: »

the british government was involved aswel so i dont know what your saying.

ya sinn fein is the ira so what? who needs convincing?

Its funny really, this robbery takes place and then the IRA announce a complete and utter ceasefire and disband the PIRA completely.

The guy reading the statement out was in a rush to read it out because he most likely had to catch a flight to Las Vegas.

danbohan

whippet wrote: »

Its amazing to see the apologists / supporters of Sinn Fein twisting this new information by making it about Bertie.

This issue is about the connection between SF leadership and the IRA, the connection between elected politicians and organised criminality. We all know these links are there despite SF’s denials.

The whole Gerry McCabe debacle and the support lended by SF to murderers, a SF TD’s election posters being in the boot off a car with some very dodgy gear driven by one of his mates.

I will beat the mantra and stand by it, a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for murderers and criminals.

Forget about the articulate boy from Donegal, SF are so rotten to the core it turns my stomach.

was gerry mccabe the only person killed in the war from 1969 or is he the only person that people in the south remember been killed or the only person that mattered to them been killed ? anyway whenever their is an opportunity to attack sinn fein / nationalists it is brought up . it was very unfortunate that gerry mccabe was killed trying to foil a bank robbery carried out by ira members but not sanctioned by the ira , those are the facts . it should also be remembered that gerry mccabe was in the process of trying to get out of his car to use his uzi he was hardly going to point to it and say look at my gun now was he , anybody that remembers the heavy gang / special branch from the 70s knows that special branch in south were as trigger happy as anything in northern ireland

Monty Burnz

paky wrote: »

proof? could of been the rira, cira or oglaigh na heireann..

Could have been. Fair point, there are a lot of murderous groups out there fighting 'for the people' (and drug and racketeering money).

Lonesome Boatman

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That bit is important for me. There isn't a single member of FG or FF alive today who murdered anybody or robbed a bank for 'political reasons' (jokes about how Fianna Failure bankrupted us aside).

If SF abandoned criminality, and stopped defending violence, I'd certainly consider voting for them in say 50 years time when all links to the last 30 years are broken - assuming they sorted out their other policies of course.

Would it be a bad thing if there was? I don't know about you but regard the people who fought for Irish freedom as heroes, and wouldn't have a problem hypothetically if there was members still alive. You would think the old IRA were saints and didn't employ the same tactics as the provos did the way some people go on.

paky

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its funny really, this robbery takes place and then the IRA announce a complete and utter ceasefire and disband the PIRA completely.

The guy reading the statement out was in a rush to read it out because he most likely had to catch a flight to Las Vegas.

the british government set that up for the ira.

Monty Burnz

danbohan wrote: »

was gerry mccabe the only person killed in the war from 1969

He wasn't in a war. He was a policeman in a nice country town in a peaceful state. He was machine gunned to death in his car seat.

I've no doubt that your narrative (whereby the evil Rambo-style special forces combat veteran was about to spring from his car and murder the heroic freedom fighters who were liberating money from an evil state institution) will be believed by some people, but most of us know an(other) innocent man was murdered by the IRA when peacefully going about his lawful business.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Monty Burnz wrote: »

An interesting statement when viewed in the light of the atrocity I mentioned earlier.

Well I don't know what you mean by interesting. That wasn't a compliment it was merely a statement of fact. Which I thought would have been obvious from my reference to the Shankill bomb. Same organisation that busted 38 prisoners out of the Maze and mortared Westminister. I was trying to make it clear that they had the capability to pull this off without leaving a trace which is why the assembly would be unlikely to require empirical evidence they did it.

I agree that that the robbery really wasn't the worst thing they've done by a very long way, even if it was a hell of a lot of money. I think it was the timing that caused the problem - the idea that they trying to be in government and cleaning out banks at the same time (insert Fianna Failure joke here ). This is why the murder of Robert McCartney and the campaign of intimidation of his family is another huge stumbling block for me taking SF seriously as a political party of government rather than a gang of thugs - they know exactly who murdered him, and they probably know who chased his innocent family out of their homes (a family whose only crime was to try to get justice for his murder!). But nobody has been convicted of the murder at all.

Well you wouldn't be the only one. These are all reasons contributing to why Sinn Fein never did well in the south even after the peace process. Though we'll have to see what happens in the next election because things might be changing.

whippet

danbohan wrote: »

was gerry mccabe the only person killed in the war from 1969 or is he the only person that people in the south remember been killed or the only person that mattered to them been killed ? anyway whenever their is an opportunity to attack sinn fein / nationalists it is brought up . it was very unfortunate that gerry mccabe was killed trying to foil a bank robbery carried out by ira members but not sanctioned by the ira , those are the facts . it should also be remembered that gerry mccabe was in the process of trying to get out of his car to use his uzi he was hardly going to point to it and say look at my gun now was he , anybody that remembers the heavy gang / special branch from the 70s knows that special branch in south were as trigger happy as anything in northern ireland

You have just proved my point ....... war my arse, gang of thugs murdered a policeman while trying to rob a bank .... scumbags.

Even if you believe this wasn't sanctioned by the IRA, I would be of the belief that they all are as guilty a hell about it.

The reason I brought this case up is simple, proves to me what SF and their ilk are all about.

This man was murdered and his murderers were supported by SF and eventually released under the Good Friday agreement, now if you assert that they were not on IRA business how could this crime be seen as a 'Good Friday' release excuse.

Regardless ... SF more or less celebrated this mans release from prison and I believe he stayed in an apartment belonging to a SF TD upon his release.

Scumbag murderers is what they are. Gerry McCabe wasn't involved in any war, he was doing his job, trying to protect society from the scum like the IRA/SF.

How can sinn fein supporters support a party who refuse to condem this murder ....

Again, I will reiterate my assertion that a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for Murderers and Criminals

meglome

danbohan wrote: »

... it should also be remembered that gerry mccabe was in the process of trying to get out of his car to use his uzi he was hardly going to point to it and say look at my gun now was he , anybody that remembers the heavy gang / special branch from the 70s knows that special branch in south were as trigger happy as anything in northern ireland

I don't get into criticising SF on these threads outside of their economic policies. I've seen they can go good at local level probably because they've got some not quite desirable types in the party. But you've got to be ****ing kidding me with the statement above. Imagine that nasty Garda carrying out his duties, trying to stop a robbery. A robbery which would be used to fund other illegal activities. I really don't know what to say... I'd end up just calling you names.

KeithAFC

whippet wrote: »

You have just proved my point ....... war my arse, gang of thugs murdered a policeman while trying to rob a bank .... scumbags.

Even if you believe this wasn't sanctioned by the IRA, I would be of the belief that they all are as guilty a hell about it.

The reason I brought this case up is simple, proves to me what SF and their ilk are all about.

This man was murdered and his murderers were supported by SF and eventually released under the Good Friday agreement, now if you assert that they were not on IRA business how could this crime be seen as a 'Good Friday' release excuse.

Regardless ... SF more or less celebrated this mans release from prison and I believe he stayed in an apartment belonging to a SF TD upon his release.

Scumbag murderers is what they are. Gerry McCabe wasn't involved in any war, he was doing his job, trying to protect society from the scum like the IRA/SF.

How can sinn fein supporters support a party who refuse to condem this murder ....

Again, I will reiterate my assertion that a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for Murderers and Criminals

And to think they might do well in your election in the republic..

paky

whippet wrote: »

You have just proved my point ....... war my arse, gang of thugs murdered a policeman while trying to rob a bank .... scumbags.

Even if you believe this wasn't sanctioned by the IRA, I would be of the belief that they all are as guilty a hell about it.

The reason I brought this case up is simple, proves to me what SF and their ilk are all about.

This man was murdered and his murderers were supported by SF and eventually released under the Good Friday agreement, now if you assert that they were not on IRA business how could this crime be seen as a 'Good Friday' release excuse.

Regardless ... SF more or less celebrated this mans release from prison and I believe he stayed in an apartment belonging to a SF TD upon his release.

Scumbag murderers is what they are. Gerry McCabe wasn't involved in any war, he was doing his job, trying to protect society from the scum like the IRA/SF.

How can sinn fein supporters support a party who refuse to condem this murder ....

Again, I will reiterate my assertion that a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for Murderers and Criminals

These men are heroes.

Bottle_of_Smoke

whippet wrote: »

You have just proved my point ....... war my arse, gang of thugs murdered a policeman while trying to rob a bank .... scumbags.

Even if you believe this wasn't sanctioned by the IRA, I would be of the belief that they all are as guilty a hell about it.

The reason I brought this case up is simple, proves to me what SF and their ilk are all about.

This man was murdered and his murderers were supported by SF and eventually released under the Good Friday agreement, now if you assert that they were not on IRA business how could this crime be seen as a 'Good Friday' release excuse.

Regardless ... SF more or less celebrated this mans release from prison and I believe he stayed in an apartment belonging to a SF TD upon his release.

Scumbag murderers is what they are. Gerry McCabe wasn't involved in any war, he was doing his job, trying to protect society from the scum like the IRA/SF.

How can sinn fein supporters support a party who refuse to condem this murder ....

Again, I will reiterate my assertion that a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for Murderers and Criminals

Just one little thing mate, they weren't released under the GFA. They got out because they were convicted of manslaughter rather than murder and they served their sentences for that. SF did try to get them out on the GFA but the Irish Govt said no

I still cannot for the life of me understand how they were allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter when it was clearly murder.

whippet

KeithAFC wrote: »

And to think they might do well in your election in the republic..

I know .. it is horrific

There is too much focus on 'getting FF out' rather than electing the best government we can ... it is a given that FF won't get back in ..

Sinn Fein are a threat to our society and therefore should be exposed as to what they are. If this exposure comes before a General Election all the better .. it will bring the message to more and more people about who SF really are.

Bottle_of_Smoke

danbohan wrote: »

it should also be remembered that gerry mccabe was in the process of trying to get out of his car to use his uzi he was hardly going to point to it and say look at my gun now was he , anybody that remembers the heavy gang / special branch from the 70s knows that special branch in south were as trigger happy as anything in northern ireland

Cop on. It was in the 90s not 70s. Over the last 30 years I think it would be insane to claim the Gardai special branch/ERUs have been "trigger happy"

THere's no reason to believe McCabe would have used lethal force unless his life was in danger. I have every confidence he would have made arrests if that were possible.

Lonesome Boatman

whippet wrote: »

You have just proved my point ....... war my arse, gang of thugs murdered a policeman while trying to rob a bank .... scumbags.

Even if you believe this wasn't sanctioned by the IRA, I would be of the belief that they all are as guilty a hell about it.

The reason I brought this case up is simple, proves to me what SF and their ilk are all about.

This man was murdered and his murderers were supported by SF and eventually released under the Good Friday agreement, now if you assert that they were not on IRA business how could this crime be seen as a 'Good Friday' release excuse.

Regardless ... SF more or less celebrated this mans release from prison and I believe he stayed in an apartment belonging to a SF TD upon his release.

Scumbag murderers is what they are. Gerry McCabe wasn't involved in any war, he was doing his job, trying to protect society from the scum like the IRA/SF.

How can sinn fein supporters support a party who refuse to condem this murder ....

Again, I will reiterate my assertion that a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for Murderers and Criminals

You have mentioned that several times.

The old IRA murdered policemen as well, were they criminals?

Are you saying 80 plus thousand people voted for murderers and criminals?

Seems like your living in the past and out of touch with reality.

Monty Burnz

meglome wrote: »

I've seen they can go good at local level probably because they've got some not quite desirable types in the party.

I can't say they don't do any good at local level, but I do know that it turned out that some of their anti-drug 'action on the ground' (i.e. violence) turned out to be a front for wiping out dealers that weren't paying republicans their cut of profits.

The murder of a popular figure like Jim Curran has exposed what people in the Liberties say is a local IRA which has turned into a crime syndicate. They say the IRA men responsible are, like the members of the gang that killed Mr McCartney, "scum".
One woman said that the weekend before Mr Curran was murdered, the local IRA boss had groped a girl in the Green Lizard and had then made an issue of offering an apology which he felt was not accepted properly.
"He's filth," the woman said, adding that the IRA boss and his gang, including members of his immediate family, have terrorised the local community for a generation.
"They're called the hammer gang, here," she said, a reference used by other community members, and which relates to the belief that the IRA man and his henchmen used hammers to attack victims.
The IRA boss is loathed and feared in equal measure. Ten years ago he led a gang which attacked and savagely beat his own sister after her son was accused of dealing drugs. They beat the woman mercilessly, fracturing her ribs.
He is also reputed to have tortured a young local woman - again accused of drug dealing - with a lighter. The woman and her partner were forced out of their home, which was subsequently handed over to another well-known IRA figure.
The IRA man who shot Jim Curran is said to have become rich through providing "protection" for selected and well-known drug dealers.

I hope Jim Curran appreciates that he was the victim of a war.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ira-boss-goes-into-hiding-as-witnesses-to-dublin-pub-slaying-defy-intimidation-466616.html

Monty Burnz

paky wrote: »

These men are heroes.

Well if you keep saying so, it must be true, even if they did murder innocent children.