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Budget day discussion thread. Your budget chat goes here.(Rules and links first post)

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    #812
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Mark200 wrote: »
    The point of what Oisin is suggesting is simple:

    Dole money should only be used for the purpose of the dole.

    What is the purpose of the dole? Why do we have a system where the Government takes money off working people, and gives it to those who need it? The purpose is to ensure that people don't go hungry. That they have a safety net. The point of a welfare card that Oisin describes is to ensure that the Government isn't taking money off other people so that useless crap can be bought with it, instead of what it was intended for.

    You can moan on all you want about the rights of those receiving the 'benefits', but ultimately it's not their money that they're spending*.

    * = Of course, I'm talking about the medium/long-term unemployed.
    Thanks - you put it very simply and perfectly!


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    #813
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Mark200 wrote: »
    The point of what Oisin is suggesting is simple:

    Dole money should only be used for the purpose of the dole.

    What is the purpose of the dole? Why do we have a system where the Government takes money off working people, and gives it to those who need it? The purpose is to ensure that people don't go hungry. That they have a safety net. The point of a welfare card that Oisin describes is to ensure that the Government isn't taking money off other people so that useless crap can be bought with it, instead of what it was intended for.

    You can moan on all you want about the rights of those receiving the 'benefits', but ultimately it's not their money that they're spending*.

    * = Of course, I'm talking about the medium/long-term unemployed.

    So why penalise those who are not medium/long-term unemployed because others milk the system?


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    #814
    Rubik.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    OisinT wrote: »
    I dislike the idea that people are "entitled" to the dole and that it should be given to them without question or restriction on how the money is spent.

    PRSI contributions are paid into the Social Insurance Fund, it is from this fund that the dole is paid from. So if you have being paying into this fund, why would you not be "entitled" to get something back from it if you become unemployed?


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    #815
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Rubik. wrote: »
    PRSI contributions are paid into the Social Insurance Fund, it is from this fund that the dole is paid from. So if you have being paying into this fund, why would you not be "entitled" to get something back from it if you become unemployed?
    Ok, so then when you don't pay in or have taken more than you have paid in then what?


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    #816
    Kasabian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    Thread has gone askew. The Budget happened today and screwed us all.

    Petrol, Diesel, tax bands, reducing dole and carer's payments, took money from children yet no TD will take a pay cut.


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    #817
    Kasabian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    OisinT wrote: »
    Ok, so then when you don't pay in or have taken more than you have paid in then what?

    BOI ATM?

    Nope they ain't giving nowt.


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    #818
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Kasabian wrote: »
    Thread has gone askew. The Budget happened today and screwed us all.

    Petrol, Diesel, tax bands, reducing dole and carer's payments, took money from children yet no TD will take a pay cut.
    The point is, IMO, that this budget has barely hurt those on the dole and is really bashing self-employed people.


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    #819
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users Posts: 9,238 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    OisinT wrote: »
    that this budget has barely hurt those on the dole and is really bashing self-employed people.

    we GET it. your pissed bruv


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    #820
    Rubik.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    OisinT wrote: »
    Ok, so then when you don't pay in or have taken more than you have paid in then what?

    You will eventually be employed again and will be paying into that fund again.


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    #821
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    OisinT wrote: »
    I don't necessarily agree. As I said in a previous post, I'm just "spitballing" the idea.

    I'm not sure it would work, but IMO something drastic has to happen to cut down on fraud and to stop people from using allowances they are given (i.e. child) for getting their hair and nails done and buying smokes.

    If the dole is 190.

    Person a likes to eat like a pig on foods that approved by your card system, doesnt smoke doesnt drink, buy my god, he eats 150 euros worth of food per week pays 30 for a room in a crappy house and 10 on utilities.


    Person b is person a's twin brother - lives in the next room, same rent and same utility bill, but eats like a sparrow, 8 euro on a bag of rice and rummages the skips for thrown out meat and he has 102 euro left over fo his one single passion - smoking.

    By your card system person a is eating like a pig waaay more than he needs and is still wasting money given to him by the state - so is person b, but because its on the approved card list its ok?

    Look, my examples are being very extreme, but they are clear, the dole is plenty for some, and not enough for others, its just how one chooses to spend it - the state arent even able to spend their own money efficently - so trying to get them to make other people spend money in an efficent or "approved" manner aint gonna work


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    #822
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Mark200 wrote: »
    The point of what Oisin is suggesting is simple:

    Dole money should only be used for the purpose of the dole.

    What is the purpose of the dole? Why do we have a system where the Government takes money off working people, and gives it to those who need it? The purpose is to ensure that people don't go hungry. That they have a safety net. The point of a welfare card that Oisin describes is to ensure that the Government isn't taking money off other people so that useless crap can be bought with it, instead of what it was intended for.

    You can moan on all you want about the rights of those receiving the 'benefits', but ultimately it's not their money that they're spending*.

    * = Of course, I'm talking about the medium/long-term unemployed.

    But how do you structure it? What if someone on the dole needs a new toaster is that ok? Can they have 2 ply toilet roll? What if their fridge breaks can they save some of their money on the card to buy an approved replacement? Can they buy second hand off someone else (brand new is tough on the dole) - how do they get the money out if they can?


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    #823
    Kasabian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    OisinT wrote: »
    The point is, IMO, that this budget has barely hurt those on the dole and is really bashing self-employed people.

    I get your point, but i think the biggest shameful move today was the reduction in child benefit and reducing carer's income while a sitting TD will still get 92K.

    There was an oppurtuinity to totally change the child benefit allowance to make sure the most in need receive it. Also reducing carer's allowance is disgusting.


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    #824
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    55 pages is far too much to read through so apologies if this has already been asked.

    Whats the crack with job creation?? Have they done anything to get businesses starting up and people back to work? Or is it all just cuts, cuts, cuts with lots of tax increases as I suspect?


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    #825
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Jaysus, I might vote SF this time around.

    Think I'll be joining you, Pearse Doherty is barely elected and he talks more sense than most of those dinosaurs in the Dáil. Hugely impressed by his speech as were a lot of people I think. The you see the old guard - Mary Coughlan the sap and her old bully tactics trying to shout Pearse down, the thug! Long may she and her 'ilk' rot in opposition.


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    #826
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Kasabian wrote: »
    I get your point, but i think the biggest shameful move today was the reduction in child benefit and reducing carer's income while a sitting TD will still get 92K.

    There was an oppurtuinity to totally change the child benefit allowance to make sure the most in need receive it. Also reducing carer's allowance is disgusting.
    Agreed. I think our TDs and public officials should have been immediately reduced to UK level income with a further 20% reduction over the next 4 years.

    Also, public sector wages should have been capped at €200,000 not €250,000. They're getting off fairly lightly in the taxes, so they could have taken another 50k hit IMO.


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    #827
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Think I'll be joining you, Pearse Doherty is barely elected and he talks more sense than most of those dinosaurs in the Dáil. Hugely impressed by his speech as were a lot of people I think. The you see the old guard - Mary Coughlan the sap and her old bully tactics trying to shout Pearse down, the thug! Long may she and her 'ilk' rot in opposition.
    Careful: Pearse Doherty ≠ All SF candidates.


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    #828
    Kasabian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Think I'll be joining you, Pearse Doherty is barely elected and he talks more sense than most of those dinosaurs in the Dáil. Hugely impressed by his speech as were a lot of people I think. The you see the old guard - Mary Coughlan the sap and her old bully tactics trying to shout Pearse down, the thug! Long may she and her 'ilk' rot in opposition.

    I think we will see a major swing towards the left in politics in the future of this country.


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    #829
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    OisinT wrote: »
    Careful: Pearse Doherty ≠ All SF candidates.


    That will be a judgement I'll make myself thanks.


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    #830
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    That will be a judgement I'll make myself thanks.
    I would sure hope so, but from your post it seems you intended on joining another poster in voting SF based on Pearse Doherty.
    Think I'll be joining you, Pearse Doherty is barely elected and he talks more sense than most of those dinosaurs in the Dáil.


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    #831
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Kasabian wrote: »
    I think we will see a major swing towards the left in politics in the future of this country.

    Left economically perhaps but I doubt we'll see a massive swing in social attitudes.


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    #832
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Kasabian wrote: »
    I think we will see a major swing towards the left in politics in the future of this country.

    So be it, if that what it takes for real change and to destroy the established cliques.


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    #833
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    Left economically perhaps but I doubt we'll see a massive swing in social attitudes.
    I think there is already a large social shift to the left in this country.

    It seems to be the old and uneducated that are hanging on to antiquated socially right views.


    If this country went economically left and socially right tomorrow, I'd seriously consider leaving.


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    #834
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    OisinT wrote: »
    I would sure hope so, but from your post it seems you intended on joining another poster in voting SF based on Pearse Doherty.

    Am I misinterpreting this as concern on your part? Apologies if I am.


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    #835
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    OisinT wrote: »
    I think there is already a large social shift to the left in this country.

    It seems to be the old and uneducated that are hanging on to antiquated socially right views.


    If this country went economically left and socially right tomorrow, I'd seriously consider leaving.

    I don't know, if you go through other threads you'll see significant opposition to cannabis use and gay marriage for example to quote two major issues. Certainly we've made leaps and bounds in the last 20 years or so but we've a long way to go.

    Economically left and socially right.....shudders.


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    #836
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    OisinT wrote: »
    Careful: Pearse Doherty ≠ All SF candidates.

    He is.

    Soundbytes 10/10

    Substance 0/10


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    #837
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    I find it strange that people actually seem more angry about funding a social welfare system than stumping the bill for a banking bailout that has pauperised the country for a generation or two.

    As a taxpayer (incidentally also at high level), I fund many societal services I'm unlikely to avail of in my lifetime but that what taxes are for: a winder societal application and not a cherry-picked list of services that exclusively benefit my lifestyle.

    I can't comment on the amount of able-bodied people who have been on the dole all their lives and don't want work as I don't know the statistics but then again I doubt I've ever seen any here despite the years of scapegoating.


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    #838
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    snyper wrote: »
    He is.

    Soundbytes 10/10

    Substance 0/10


    Fairplay to ya, the guy's not even a TD for two weeks and you can come to this learned conclusion....wow!


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    #839
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Pearse Doherty

    I had to laugh listening to him on drivetime this evening, bemoaning the fact that this budget would mean less guards on the street. Short memory this man must have, considering not too long ago his ilk were doing their damnedest to reduce the number of guards themselves, albeit by different means.


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    #840
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users Posts: 9,238 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    OisinT wrote: »
    It seems to be the old and uneducated that are hanging on to antiquated socially right views.


    why do you think the pension wasnt cut? FF know alot of their votes come from older generations


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    #841
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    stovelid wrote: »
    I find it strange that people actually seem more angry about funding a social welfare system than stumping the bill for a banking bailout that has pauperised the country for a generation or two.

    The thread is about all things budget, and the cuts in the social welfare is the big headline although not unanticipated -hence the debate.

    It doesnt negate what ppl feel be it correct or not - for the banks


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