Bilingual Road Signs in Ireland

Nuttzz

etchyed wrote: »

It seems to me you're either unable to understand the problems with the current signs or unable to come up with decent arguments that they're fine other than "sure it's grand as it is". If that's all you have to add why bother posting?

I think that one of our biggest problems is lack of signs off major routes, go up the north and you can see "Etchyed Road leading to Nuttzz Lane" etc something that would badly need to be addressed

Then Dublin City council came up with the Junction signs (j11 etc) but i never hear of them in use, only recently did AA Roadwatch start using junction numbers in their motorway reports

I dont have a problem with the current signs, that said, the creative types here have come up with some excellent looking mock ups.

Ideally a EU wide standardisation would be in everyones interest, I think

Empire o de Sun

finally got round to doing a version of Exit 7 on the M50 that That user name is already in use and Jayuu had done.

Used the Clearview family of fonts.

Jayuu

Good work there Empire!

Personally I'm not sure I really like the road naming at the top of the sign mainly because I don't think it adds anything to it. But perhaps people might disagree with that.

Empire o de Sun

Thanks Jayuu!!

I was in Australia once and there they had all the roads named. Found it useful, and thought it would be handy for ireland. As I never know what the road I'm on is called and people have sometimes several names for a single road.

Empire o de Sun

Another go, using your boxes Jayuu, think the look good.

exit number based on km from start of road. Trunkated the N4 to the M50 to show an R number on a motorway sign

Jayuu

I really do like those signs. I would make some small changes though.

I would standardise the position of the arrow and road numbers on the exit signs (just my little obsession!! ) And maybe on the main sign put the route numbers to the right or possibly just colour patch them as well so that they stand out. BTW isn't the M11 part of the E1? The N route sign looks great although I'm still not convinced by the idea of the white background sign on a N route, even if it is for an exit.

However what really is obvious from all of the efforts made by people is that there is room for vast improvement in our current signage.

Chris_5339762

I would find those signs a little too busy, but then again I would be all for removing the Irish completely

Empire o de Sun

Jayuu wrote: »

I really do like those signs. I would make some small changes though.

I would standardise the position of the arrow and road numbers on the exit signs (just my little obsession!! ) And maybe on the main sign put the route numbers to the right or possibly just colour patch them as well so that they stand out. BTW isn't the M11 part of the E1? The N route sign looks great although I'm still not convinced by the idea of the white background sign on a N route, even if it is for an exit.

However what really is obvious from all of the efforts made by people is that there is room for vast improvement in our current signage.

wha de ya think

SeanW

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This thread is only for discussion on the design of bilingual road signage in Ireland.

This thread is NOT a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Links:

• Design research journal by Garret Reil
  An examination of Ireland’s dual-language road signs.
• Forum: Linguistic Issues - Bilingual road signs
  Huge discussion and examples of bilingual road sign around the world.
• Poor Road Signage Pictures thread

I would like to see your proposals for improved Irish road signage in this thread. You can also post examples from other countries.

To be fair, this thread and the proposals therein, do beg the questions about the Irish language itself, as the proposals clearly "take sides" on the question.

The current Irish first, but in mixed case and italicised, is acceptable to me, and possibly to whoever decided on it, for two simple reasons:

1. It's only a sop to the hardline Gaelgoirs. I doubt it helps anyone find their way on our roads. The primary duty for a road sign is to provide information. If it doesn't do this effectively, it's a bad road sign. Full stop.
2. The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language. A prime example is where Fermoy = Mainistear Fhear Mai or Ardee becomes Baile Atha Firdhea. Guaranteeing that the Irish and English language versions will recieve equal billing requires that measures be taken to limit the potential of the Irish language version to ramble on and consume most of the sign, measures such as mixed-case text and, in extreme cases, abbreviations.

To those ends, the OPs first proposal is inexcusably and fatally flawed - if I had to read those signs with the Irish first and no easy differentiation between languages, I would have serious difficulty discerning the information I need.

The second proposal is somewhat better in the sense that differentiation is provided, meaning that I as an English speaker can home-in on the information I would need, as would the Irish only speakers (all 5 of them), their text being in yellow.

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

L1011

SeanW wrote: »

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

Unfortunately a bit late for that...

Jayuu

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

wha de ya think

I do like them but looking at them again I'm still not convinced by the need to indicate the name of the road on the sign and I think the extra space removing them would give would allow the sign to appear less cramped.

I quite like the idea of putting the destination route in front of the name so that it is emphasised without the need for colour patching. You're still not advising the the M11 is part of the E1 route though but that's a minor point! I'm also wondering how you'd list the routes if Limerick was on the exit sign (as in a exit sign like 22a)

I just wish somebody in the NRA would have a look at this thread and see how much better our signs could be.

alentejo

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2011/jan/16/tourist-signage-unused-because-irish-not-prominent/

Might need to keep this in mind!

Stonewolf

There are monolingual signs all over the Gaeltacht, signs outside the Gaeltacht should also be monolingual.

Empire o de Sun

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

thank you

mackerski

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

It's all about its use on road signs. It's one of the languages alluded to in the thread title.

Empire o de Sun

Jayuu wrote: »

I'm also wondering how you'd list the routes if Limerick was on the exit sign

Stonewolf

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

thank you

I never said anything about the Irish language, all I said was that since monolingual signs are deemed acceptable in one part of the country it should be the norm over all the country.

Now if I wanted to actually be offensive I would ask where (so called) Irish speakers get off on making one law for them and one for the rest of us right speaking folks.

comeraghs

I like the one with the yellow Irish above the English name,

not a gaelgeoir in any way ... in fact the extremist gaelgeoir types piss me off sometime with the holier than thou attitude ..... but I don't understand why anyone would want us to take the Irish off the signposts ..... I especially like trying to figure out the origin of place-names through their Irish names.

Stonewolf

comeraghs wrote: »

I like the one with the yellow Irish above the English name,

not a gaelgeoir in any way ... in fact the extremist gaelgeoir types piss me off sometime with the holier than thou attitude ..... but I don't understand why anyone would want us to take the Irish off the signposts ..... I especially like trying to figure out the origin of place-names through their Irish names.

Idle curiousity is not what signs are for, they're for clearly and concisely conveying important information about the road to the driver in a manner which is easily and quickly processed.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I don't want to be picky or interfering, but in my opinion the arrow on the 28b sign isn't right. Would an arrow at the left corner in keeping with the rest of the arrows on the signs. Something like this: http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=52.891649,-8.940178&spn=0,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.89246,-8.939688&panoid=CdftgNEopvgwYiv0B-m8JQ&cbp=12,200.91,,2,-0.49

Empire o de Sun

Cos the Department of Transport or the NRA have two systems for signing an exit on a gantry.

Version 1, indicates the exit only without indicating where the existing lanes go. This example is now blue.

Version 2 is for when all existing lanes are covered by a gantry.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

okay. point taken.

Empire o de Sun

Just did a comparison of my style with Cleaview Fonts and the current style for comparison. I rounded the route boxes, and standardised their size. I based the Clearview size on keeping the x height the same as the Transport Heavy x height. This means the upper case letters in Transport heavy are slightly larger, but the lower case are the same height for both. I know the designers of Clearview intended to increase the size of lower case letters compared to existing fonts but our signage system is based on the x height for all spacing and dimensions for symbols etc.

The x height is the height of the lower case letter "x"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_height

Cnat

SeanW wrote: »

To be fair, this thread and the proposals therein, do beg the questions about the Irish language itself, as the proposals clearly "take sides" on the question.

The current Irish first, but in mixed case and italicised, is acceptable to me, and possibly to whoever decided on it, for two simple reasons:

1. It's only a sop to the hardline Gaelgoirs. I doubt it helps anyone find their way on our roads. The primary duty for a road sign is to provide information. If it doesn't do this effectively, it's a bad road sign. Full stop.
2. The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language. A prime example is where Fermoy = Mainistear Fhear Mai or Ardee becomes Baile Atha Firdhea. Guaranteeing that the Irish and English language versions will recieve equal billing requires that measures be taken to limit the potential of the Irish language version to ramble on and consume most of the sign, measures such as mixed-case text and, in extreme cases, abbreviations.

To those ends, the OPs first proposal is inexcusably and fatally flawed - if I had to read those signs with the Irish first and no easy differentiation between languages, I would have serious difficulty discerning the information I need.

The second proposal is somewhat better in the sense that differentiation is provided, meaning that I as an English speaker can home-in on the information I would need, as would the Irish only speakers (all 5 of them), their text being in yellow.

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames. As regards the length of placenames in Irish 'consuming the sign' what about Newtownmountkennedy/Baile an Chinnéidigh?

cantalach

Cnat wrote: »

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames.

Thanks. Well said. When the Hispanic taxi driver in Pulp Fiction asks Butch what his name means, he replies, "I'm American, honey...our names don't mean sh*t." Even somebody with no interest in the Irish language per se would surely have to agree that it would be nice not to go down that particular path.

SeanW

Cnat wrote: »

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames. As regards the length of placenames in Irish 'consuming the sign' what about Newtownmountkennedy/Baile an Chinnéidigh?

It's been my clear view - with plenty of evidence, that Irish language placenames are longer - often by a factor of double - than their English versions:
For example
Fermoy
Mainistear Fhear Mai
Ardee
Baile Atha Firdhea
Athlone
Baile Atha naLuan
Cork
Corcaigh
Dublin
Baile Atha Cliath
Mullingar
An Muileann gCearr
Enfiled
An Bothar Bui
...
and so on and so on.
Newtownmountkennedy strikes me very much as the exception to the rule, and even still the gaelic version isn't much shorter.

So my point stands - reduced lettering (abbreviations and lower case word bodies) for the Irish language names are a good way of ensuring equal billing for the Irish and English versions in light of the formers tendency to ramble.

oppenheimer1

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide. The problem is with the variety of different signage styles seen in this country, the fact that legacy signs are rarely taken down and replaced. The sign suggestions seen in this thread do little to improve readability, with the proposals often being cluttered or taking up a very small amount of real estate on the sign. Some of them are overly colourful which adds to expense but adds little to legibility. They also present unneeded information like the E numbers - which are completely pointless on an island with no land connection to the mainland.

The way people go on you think the NRA decided on a whim what style to go with, when there was in fact extremely detailed consideration given to the guide for signage convention.

The signs are fine as they are, whats needed is a unified approach to existing signs so have all to the same standard. That means replacing thousands of legacy signs.

etchyed

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

There's plenty wrong with it. It would be nice of you to read some of the problems people (including me) have posted and address them rather than wade into this thread months later and dismiss them all in one sentence.

Empire o de Sun

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

hummm,

http://books.google.ie/books?id=fMZlnmS5YDMC&lpg=SA11-PA14&ots=nfNhQtBsKg&dq=Mixed%20Case%20Upper%20Case%20Road%20Sign&pg=SA11-PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

I think mixed case wins.

eia340600

The proposals look good, with the mixed font seeming to be more legible.I think that we should just have one name for places.If that means that Athlone is Baile Átha Luain and Grafton Street stays as it is, so be it.If it was an English name first, leave it.If it was an Irish name first leave that...Much less "confusing".