Bilingual Road Signs in Ireland

etchyed

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Unless you're an Arabic speaker, which the majority of people in Arabic-speaking countries tend to be.

And they'll quite easily filter out the English

Have seen it in real life. Don't think it's all that great.

It's great if you want to give equal prominence to two languages. As I said in my earlier post, whether you agree with that premise or not is immaterial in discussing how best to implement it.

Mackerski's post really gets to the heart of this. The current signs seem to intentionally not meet their bilingual purpose. They are a fudge, which keep English-speakers happy by giving English much more prominence. Most irritatingly, Irish-only placenames are written in that dreadful oblique font, making it in some ways the default font for signage.

The crap way in which the Irish is written makes its inclusion, as mackerski said, lip-service (a more appropriate description than my "tokenism"). I think it should either have equal prominence or not be there at all.

Jayuu

etchyed wrote: »

I don't really understand why you've decided to use a random font like this. There are a relatively small number of fonts used for roadsigns around the world, examples of which are in by Empire o de sun. These fonts are designed specifically for road signage. I'm not a typography expert but I'd imagine there are sound reasons why authorities don't go about just using Arial or whatever takes their fancy. So I think it makes more sense to use a roadsign-specific font, and I don't see what the problem is with Transport to be honest.

Well I mainly used Allerta because I didn't have the other fonts on my PC when I was doing the signs. I can easily go back and do them in one of the other fonts.
That being said Allerta was designed specifically for signage by its creator, so its not just a random font, and it has a lot of thought put into it as to how to make each letter clear and easy to read. I happen to think it works very well.
I don't like Transport mainly because of the similarity between the lower case "a" and the "o" especially where the fáda (again not part of the original font) is used. Perhaps its because I don't like its current use in Ireland is why I don't like it.

etchyed wrote: »

Under the current rules, coloured patching is not used on motorways in Ireland. Where patching is used (ie national and regional roads) the destinations are patched, not just the route numbers. Patching route numbers alone was an early implementation of patching rules and where you see it on relatively new signs, it's wrong.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the blue-only-on-motorways rule. The French use the colour of the route the exit leads to rather than simply blue. But for consistency with the signage on, for example, dual-carriageway N-roads, I'd patch all the destinations too. Those little white and green route number patches are a bit small to be noticed.

I know patching isn't used (or shouldn't be used) currently but this isn't about just reproducing what is current but examining different approaches. The problem with patching the entire destination is that you can end up with splotches of colour all over the sign. Again I think just patching the route number is clean and simple and gets the message across. Remember its not just one sign you see. There would be a whole series of signs approaching any junction.
I did some work and courses many years ago in computer based training systems and GUI designs and one of the main things that research at that time showed was that the more colours you have on a screen the more distracting it is for the user. I would suggest that the same is true for signage. This style allows for a consistent back colour and then small splashes of another colour to highlight differences.

etchyed wrote: »

I think your dislike of brackets is very much an aesthetic thing. IMO they show more clearly and intuitively the meaning intended, i.e. you'll take the N33 for a while to get to the N2. So I don't really like these ideas.

I don't agree with you that its intuitive about the meaning. I think its because you already know what the brackets mean. But somebody coming to it for the first time may not understand the intention. My main problem with the brackets in this example is that its only around the route number so its not entirely clear why the route number is in brackets and the destination isn't.
That said I'm not sure the any of my alternatives convey a clear meaning either. I think perhaps if I were to do this again I would put the route number first and then the destination (as I did in the distances sign later on that you liked).

etchyed wrote: »

While this also has elements of your proposals that I don't like (patched R-road number, yellow box around junction number and motorway number - why?!!!) you're right about the inconsistency and I like the way you've tidied it up.

Looking at this further I think the yellow box around the junction number is a mistake. I think it should be white as currently used. The idea of the yellow box around the route numbers is to establish a pattern that helps the route number stand out from the rest of the information. So anywhere you see a yellow box you're referencing a route number. If this was used consistently on all signage then its make the whole signage system clearer. In isolation it probably doesn't really add anything to this sign.
In fairness to the existing sign I think its been there a while and its probably not representative of current usage practice.

etchyed wrote: »

Much as I disagree with your ditching of the brackets for aesthetics' sake, I can't help but like this. It does show very clearly what's what.

I do like this one as well and I think it works best for the concept of identifying main routes and other routes. I can't help myself about the brackets, I just really dislike them.
My one criticism of my design is that by not having all the text aligned correctly it can make the sign more confusing. However I suppose the line break and consistent use of alignment within each section slightly remedies that. I think that is the main problem I have with the use of the brackets. It shoves the text and the numbers out of line with the rest of the sign.

etchyed wrote: »

Sorry for all the image quoting and sorry to Jayuu if this seems like an attack. I appreciate they will have taken time to put together and there are some good ideas there. Hope you can take the criticism how it's intended.

Of course I don't take it personally. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and to disagree with others. As I said in my last post doing this has shown me how tricky it is to come up with a consistent standard that can be used. In fact I think its inevitable that at some point there will be signs that don't entirely fit the standard. But I do think that our current system isn't great and its application is not consistent. Obviously its not going to be changed in the near future (if ever) but it is a worthwhile exercise looking at alternative options and proposals.

That username is already in use.

Jayuu wrote: »

Super work, Jayuu. This is great. Collaboration, just as I wanted!

I definitely like your idea for the route numbers.

One thing; you have decreased the font size in order to fit in all the info.

Make sure to keep the font size the same as the original as I have done.



As soon as I have the time, I'll upload a new pic using some of your ideas.

Jayuu

Yes, I take your point about the font size. The problem is that I don't want to stretch the font in order to make it fit more because it starts to look odd. Maybe there's no way around that. Perhaps I'll look at the spacing of them.

I've also had redesigned them in the USA font that you uploaded, thanks for that. They installed on my system under the name Roadgeek (!) but it looks like Clearview. I've used the Series 3W version as I think that the best one. Perhaps I should use a wider version of the font for the larger signs. It may not look that bad because its still part of the same font group.

I do want the signs to look consistent because that is one of my main gripes with the current system. I hate the real narrow version of the Transport font that is used on some of the signs in order to fit the information on the sign. It looks so amateurish.



Here is the revised version using the Clearview text and with the main text larger (done by using a larger font and stretching it slightly). I've also put the junction box back into a white surround as well as the ferry symbol so as to distinguish them from the route numbers. Don't know if I'm entirely happy with it but it probably does work better on the larger sign.

Empire o de Sun

They are Roadgeeks fonts. The real version of Clearview is subject to license and cost thousands for the complete set.

Jayuu

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

They are Roadgeeks fonts. The real version of Clearview is subject to license and cost thousands for the complete set.

I assume they are similar to the Clearview font. They certainly look similar.

Nuttzz

etchyed wrote: »

Really, you don't? Because I spent a good 5 minutes of my life explaining to you exactly what's wrong with it. It'd be nice for you to at least explain why you disagree, rather than just ignore the reasons that you've been given.

Ok,

I dont find them ugly,

I dont see what is wrong with italics, it shows the difference between Irish & english

I never had a problem reading them because the english was capitalised.


I do think the different colours is a good idea, and the improvements outlined here are nice to look at, but i cant see any change coming down the pipeline for a while

Empire o de Sun

Jayuu wrote: »

I assume they are similar to the Clearview font. They certainly look similar.

they are his/her "interpenetration", so in effect they are an, if not exact, a 99% copy.

etchyed

Nuttzz wrote: »

Ok,

I dont find them ugly,

Whether the signs are ugly or not is not important, I acknowledge that.

I dont see what is wrong with italics, it shows the difference between Irish & english

As has been discussed, it gives the Irish less prominence.

I never had a problem reading them because the english was capitalised.

Most people can read them quicker if they aren't

I do think the different colours is a good idea, and the improvements outlined here are nice to look at, but i cant see any change coming down the pipeline for a while

Nor can I but this is more a hypothetical discussion than anything else.

It seems to me you're either unable to understand the problems with the current signs or unable to come up with decent arguments that they're fine other than "sure it's grand as it is". If that's all you have to add why bother posting?

etchyed

Jayuu wrote: »

Well I mainly used Allerta because I didn't have the other fonts on my PC when I was doing the signs. I can easily go back and do them in one of the other fonts.
That being said Allerta was designed specifically for signage by its creator, so its not just a random font, and it has a lot of thought put into it as to how to make each letter clear and easy to read. I happen to think it works very well.
I don't like Transport mainly because of the similarity between the lower case "a" and the "o" especially where the fáda (again not part of the original font) is used. Perhaps its because I don't like its current use in Ireland is why I don't like it.

I know patching isn't used (or shouldn't be used) currently but this isn't about just reproducing what is current but examining different approaches. The problem with patching the entire destination is that you can end up with splotches of colour all over the sign. Again I think just patching the route number is clean and simple and gets the message across. Remember its not just one sign you see. There would be a whole series of signs approaching any junction.

I did some work and courses many years ago in computer based training systems and GUI designs and one of the main things that research at that time showed was that the more colours you have on a screen the more distracting it is for the user. I would suggest that the same is true for signage. This style allows for a consistent back colour and then small splashes of another colour to highlight differences.

Thanks for the response. Apologies about the font, I didn't realise it was specifically chosen. And that's an interesting point about the colours.

Nuttzz

etchyed wrote: »

It seems to me you're either unable to understand the problems with the current signs or unable to come up with decent arguments that they're fine other than "sure it's grand as it is". If that's all you have to add why bother posting?

I think that one of our biggest problems is lack of signs off major routes, go up the north and you can see "Etchyed Road leading to Nuttzz Lane" etc something that would badly need to be addressed

Then Dublin City council came up with the Junction signs (j11 etc) but i never hear of them in use, only recently did AA Roadwatch start using junction numbers in their motorway reports

I dont have a problem with the current signs, that said, the creative types here have come up with some excellent looking mock ups.

Ideally a EU wide standardisation would be in everyones interest, I think

Empire o de Sun

finally got round to doing a version of Exit 7 on the M50 that That user name is already in use and Jayuu had done.

Used the Clearview family of fonts.

Jayuu

Good work there Empire!

Personally I'm not sure I really like the road naming at the top of the sign mainly because I don't think it adds anything to it. But perhaps people might disagree with that.

Empire o de Sun

Thanks Jayuu!!

I was in Australia once and there they had all the roads named. Found it useful, and thought it would be handy for ireland. As I never know what the road I'm on is called and people have sometimes several names for a single road.

Empire o de Sun

Another go, using your boxes Jayuu, think the look good.

exit number based on km from start of road. Trunkated the N4 to the M50 to show an R number on a motorway sign

Jayuu

I really do like those signs. I would make some small changes though.

I would standardise the position of the arrow and road numbers on the exit signs (just my little obsession!! ) And maybe on the main sign put the route numbers to the right or possibly just colour patch them as well so that they stand out. BTW isn't the M11 part of the E1? The N route sign looks great although I'm still not convinced by the idea of the white background sign on a N route, even if it is for an exit.

However what really is obvious from all of the efforts made by people is that there is room for vast improvement in our current signage.

Chris_5339762

I would find those signs a little too busy, but then again I would be all for removing the Irish completely

Empire o de Sun

Jayuu wrote: »

I really do like those signs. I would make some small changes though.

I would standardise the position of the arrow and road numbers on the exit signs (just my little obsession!! ) And maybe on the main sign put the route numbers to the right or possibly just colour patch them as well so that they stand out. BTW isn't the M11 part of the E1? The N route sign looks great although I'm still not convinced by the idea of the white background sign on a N route, even if it is for an exit.

However what really is obvious from all of the efforts made by people is that there is room for vast improvement in our current signage.

wha de ya think

SeanW

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This thread is only for discussion on the design of bilingual road signage in Ireland.

This thread is NOT a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Links:

• Design research journal by Garret Reil
  An examination of Ireland’s dual-language road signs.
• Forum: Linguistic Issues - Bilingual road signs
  Huge discussion and examples of bilingual road sign around the world.
• Poor Road Signage Pictures thread

I would like to see your proposals for improved Irish road signage in this thread. You can also post examples from other countries.

To be fair, this thread and the proposals therein, do beg the questions about the Irish language itself, as the proposals clearly "take sides" on the question.

The current Irish first, but in mixed case and italicised, is acceptable to me, and possibly to whoever decided on it, for two simple reasons:

1. It's only a sop to the hardline Gaelgoirs. I doubt it helps anyone find their way on our roads. The primary duty for a road sign is to provide information. If it doesn't do this effectively, it's a bad road sign. Full stop.
2. The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language. A prime example is where Fermoy = Mainistear Fhear Mai or Ardee becomes Baile Atha Firdhea. Guaranteeing that the Irish and English language versions will recieve equal billing requires that measures be taken to limit the potential of the Irish language version to ramble on and consume most of the sign, measures such as mixed-case text and, in extreme cases, abbreviations.

To those ends, the OPs first proposal is inexcusably and fatally flawed - if I had to read those signs with the Irish first and no easy differentiation between languages, I would have serious difficulty discerning the information I need.

The second proposal is somewhat better in the sense that differentiation is provided, meaning that I as an English speaker can home-in on the information I would need, as would the Irish only speakers (all 5 of them), their text being in yellow.

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

L1011

SeanW wrote: »

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

Unfortunately a bit late for that...

Jayuu

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

wha de ya think

I do like them but looking at them again I'm still not convinced by the need to indicate the name of the road on the sign and I think the extra space removing them would give would allow the sign to appear less cramped.

I quite like the idea of putting the destination route in front of the name so that it is emphasised without the need for colour patching. You're still not advising the the M11 is part of the E1 route though but that's a minor point! I'm also wondering how you'd list the routes if Limerick was on the exit sign (as in a exit sign like 22a)

I just wish somebody in the NRA would have a look at this thread and see how much better our signs could be.

alentejo

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2011/jan/16/tourist-signage-unused-because-irish-not-prominent/

Might need to keep this in mind!

Stonewolf

There are monolingual signs all over the Gaeltacht, signs outside the Gaeltacht should also be monolingual.

Empire o de Sun

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

thank you

mackerski

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

It's all about its use on road signs. It's one of the languages alluded to in the thread title.

Empire o de Sun

Jayuu wrote: »

I'm also wondering how you'd list the routes if Limerick was on the exit sign

Stonewolf

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This thread is not a debate about the use of the Irish langunage

thank you

I never said anything about the Irish language, all I said was that since monolingual signs are deemed acceptable in one part of the country it should be the norm over all the country.

Now if I wanted to actually be offensive I would ask where (so called) Irish speakers get off on making one law for them and one for the rest of us right speaking folks.

comeraghs

I like the one with the yellow Irish above the English name,

not a gaelgeoir in any way ... in fact the extremist gaelgeoir types piss me off sometime with the holier than thou attitude ..... but I don't understand why anyone would want us to take the Irish off the signposts ..... I especially like trying to figure out the origin of place-names through their Irish names.

Stonewolf

comeraghs wrote: »

I like the one with the yellow Irish above the English name,

not a gaelgeoir in any way ... in fact the extremist gaelgeoir types piss me off sometime with the holier than thou attitude ..... but I don't understand why anyone would want us to take the Irish off the signposts ..... I especially like trying to figure out the origin of place-names through their Irish names.

Idle curiousity is not what signs are for, they're for clearly and concisely conveying important information about the road to the driver in a manner which is easily and quickly processed.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I don't want to be picky or interfering, but in my opinion the arrow on the 28b sign isn't right. Would an arrow at the left corner in keeping with the rest of the arrows on the signs. Something like this: http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=52.891649,-8.940178&spn=0,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.89246,-8.939688&panoid=CdftgNEopvgwYiv0B-m8JQ&cbp=12,200.91,,2,-0.49

Empire o de Sun

Cos the Department of Transport or the NRA have two systems for signing an exit on a gantry.

Version 1, indicates the exit only without indicating where the existing lanes go. This example is now blue.

Version 2 is for when all existing lanes are covered by a gantry.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

okay. point taken.

Empire o de Sun

Just did a comparison of my style with Cleaview Fonts and the current style for comparison. I rounded the route boxes, and standardised their size. I based the Clearview size on keeping the x height the same as the Transport Heavy x height. This means the upper case letters in Transport heavy are slightly larger, but the lower case are the same height for both. I know the designers of Clearview intended to increase the size of lower case letters compared to existing fonts but our signage system is based on the x height for all spacing and dimensions for symbols etc.

The x height is the height of the lower case letter "x"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_height

Cnat

SeanW wrote: »

To be fair, this thread and the proposals therein, do beg the questions about the Irish language itself, as the proposals clearly "take sides" on the question.

The current Irish first, but in mixed case and italicised, is acceptable to me, and possibly to whoever decided on it, for two simple reasons:

1. It's only a sop to the hardline Gaelgoirs. I doubt it helps anyone find their way on our roads. The primary duty for a road sign is to provide information. If it doesn't do this effectively, it's a bad road sign. Full stop.
2. The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language. A prime example is where Fermoy = Mainistear Fhear Mai or Ardee becomes Baile Atha Firdhea. Guaranteeing that the Irish and English language versions will recieve equal billing requires that measures be taken to limit the potential of the Irish language version to ramble on and consume most of the sign, measures such as mixed-case text and, in extreme cases, abbreviations.

To those ends, the OPs first proposal is inexcusably and fatally flawed - if I had to read those signs with the Irish first and no easy differentiation between languages, I would have serious difficulty discerning the information I need.

The second proposal is somewhat better in the sense that differentiation is provided, meaning that I as an English speaker can home-in on the information I would need, as would the Irish only speakers (all 5 of them), their text being in yellow.

I really hope this thread doesn't give the Irish language lobby another hobby horse to ram the language down our throats.

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames. As regards the length of placenames in Irish 'consuming the sign' what about Newtownmountkennedy/Baile an Chinnéidigh?

cantalach

Cnat wrote: »

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames.

Thanks. Well said. When the Hispanic taxi driver in Pulp Fiction asks Butch what his name means, he replies, "I'm American, honey...our names don't mean sh*t." Even somebody with no interest in the Irish language per se would surely have to agree that it would be nice not to go down that particular path.

SeanW

Cnat wrote: »

90% + of the placenames of Ireland have their origin in the Irish Language. The English Language 'versions' are a mix of meaningless transliterations. half-translations and various other corruptions. It is a truly bizarre statement therefore to say that 'The Irish language tends to ramble and be more verbose to convey the same idea as the English language' in relation to placenames. As regards the length of placenames in Irish 'consuming the sign' what about Newtownmountkennedy/Baile an Chinnéidigh?

It's been my clear view - with plenty of evidence, that Irish language placenames are longer - often by a factor of double - than their English versions:
For example
Fermoy
Mainistear Fhear Mai
Ardee
Baile Atha Firdhea
Athlone
Baile Atha naLuan
Cork
Corcaigh
Dublin
Baile Atha Cliath
Mullingar
An Muileann gCearr
Enfiled
An Bothar Bui
...
and so on and so on.
Newtownmountkennedy strikes me very much as the exception to the rule, and even still the gaelic version isn't much shorter.

So my point stands - reduced lettering (abbreviations and lower case word bodies) for the Irish language names are a good way of ensuring equal billing for the Irish and English versions in light of the formers tendency to ramble.

oppenheimer1

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide. The problem is with the variety of different signage styles seen in this country, the fact that legacy signs are rarely taken down and replaced. The sign suggestions seen in this thread do little to improve readability, with the proposals often being cluttered or taking up a very small amount of real estate on the sign. Some of them are overly colourful which adds to expense but adds little to legibility. They also present unneeded information like the E numbers - which are completely pointless on an island with no land connection to the mainland.

The way people go on you think the NRA decided on a whim what style to go with, when there was in fact extremely detailed consideration given to the guide for signage convention.

The signs are fine as they are, whats needed is a unified approach to existing signs so have all to the same standard. That means replacing thousands of legacy signs.

etchyed

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

There's plenty wrong with it. It would be nice of you to read some of the problems people (including me) have posted and address them rather than wade into this thread months later and dismiss them all in one sentence.

Empire o de Sun

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

hummm,

http://books.google.ie/books?id=fMZlnmS5YDMC&lpg=SA11-PA14&ots=nfNhQtBsKg&dq=Mixed%20Case%20Upper%20Case%20Road%20Sign&pg=SA11-PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

I think mixed case wins.

eia340600

The proposals look good, with the mixed font seeming to be more legible.I think that we should just have one name for places.If that means that Athlone is Baile Átha Luain and Grafton Street stays as it is, so be it.If it was an English name first, leave it.If it was an Irish name first leave that...Much less "confusing".

etchyed

eia340600 wrote: »

The proposals look good, with the mixed font seeming to be more legible.I think that we should just have one name for places.If that means that Athlone is Baile Átha Luain and Grafton Street stays as it is, so be it.If it was an English name first, leave it.If it was an Irish name first leave that...Much less "confusing".

That's a whole new can of worms you're opening there. The reality is the vast majority of names come from Irish. People would be up in arms. Look at Dingle, for example.

Not to mention that this is a thread about road signs and the signs should be designed to suit the placenames rather than vice versa.

oppenheimer1

etchyed wrote: »

There's plenty wrong with it. It would be nice of you to read some of the problems people (including me) have posted and address them rather than wade into this thread months later and dismiss them all in one sentence.

Isn't that what the forum is for. I'm sorry I didn't realise I had to post on the first page to be entitled to comment :rolleyes:

I dismiss the prototypes suggested because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design. They do not take into consideration all the constraints that the NRA has to. That is a low cost sign that presents enough information clearly to allow a driver to make a safe manoeuvre in enough time. Multi colour signs are expensive, they also do not fit well with the existing design scheme. The NRA also is constrained by the Irish language act which it has to give equal prominence to Irish place names.

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

hummm,

http://books.google.ie/books?id=fMZlnmS5YDMC&lpg=SA11-PA14&ots=nfNhQtBsKg&dq=Mixed%20Case%20Upper%20Case%20Road%20Sign&pg=SA11-PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

I think mixed case wins.

As for all capitals being less legible, thats true I cannot argue with the research. The effect is only noticed in words you expect to see and is not observed in unknown words. Even when a difference is noticed it is marginal at best. 10-15%. In an ideal world there would be an argument for mixed case but it does not fit the constraints of Irish sign design costs and legislation. The designers chose larger upper case rather than smaller mixed case. The signs are designed to be legible at a given distance no matter what the font size. The sign designers would have been aware of this research you point out and had a good reason not to go with it. The decisions were not taken on a whim.

The way people talk about the NRA here you'd swear that the design scheme was drawn up on the back or a beer mat late one friday evening in the pub after work. As I said in reality there would have been dozens of meetings, consultations with graphic designers, numerous prototypes made and the one chose was the one thought to best fit all the constraints. Of course there are sacrifices - but engineering is about making the best within the limitations set out. In the real world, where these engineers live, they have to consider everything like cost vs legibility whilst keeping within the limitations of various statutes.

Empire o de Sun

The current font "Transport heavy" is used on all road signs, motorway, national and regional. It is designed for dark text on light background (regional roads), not light text on dark (motorways & natinoal roads) as is used on Ireland.

So thought may have gone in, but not enough.

oppenheimer1

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

The current font "Transport heavy" is used on all road signs, motorway, national and regional. It is designed for dark text on light background (regional roads), not light text on dark (motorways & natinoal roads) as is used on Ireland.

So thought may have gone in, but not enough.

Just because it is not designed for it doesn't mean it doesn't perform adequately. I cannot think of any instance where a new road sign has confused me or been illegible.

etchyed

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Isn't that what the forum is for.

The forum is for debate and discussion. Stating your opinion as fact without reasons is not good debating.

I'm sorry I didn't realise I had to post on the first page to be entitled to comment :rolleyes:

Please don't twist my words. That's obviously not what I meant and construing it that way is not constructive .

I dismiss the prototypes suggested...

I wasn't referring to you dismissing the mockups. I was referring to your dismissal of the reasons for attempting them in the first place, stating as you did that:

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

There was much discussion in this thread about the merits of the existing signs and what, indeed, is wrong with them. You seem to have chosen to ignore that. If you disagree, fair enough, but please argue why.



But regardless, to deal with the rest of your post:

...because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design.

Actually most of them don't attempt to design anything, as they mainly use existing sign designs and typefaces from other countries to show what such implementations would look like in Ireland.

They do not take into consideration all the constraints that the NRA has to. That is a low cost sign that presents enough information clearly to allow a driver to make a safe manoeuvre in enough time.

I agree with you that some of them are too cluttered or have unnecessary elements but some of them, particularly those from That username's posts on the first page, are in no way different to current signage save for the use of mixed case and coloured text.

Multi colour signs are expensive...

Do you have any idea how much extra a multicolour sign costs? A huge number of roadsigns nowadays are patched and thus use multiple colours. Even a non-patched N-road sign uses gold lettering for route numbers. So multicoloured signs are pretty commonplace already.

they also do not fit well with the existing design scheme.

This is a hypothetical discussion about entirely replacing the existing design scheme, so I don't see how that's important.

The NRA also is constrained by the Irish language act which it has to give equal prominence to Irish place names.

Nope. Current road signs don't give equal prominence to Irish place names. Have you looked at them? Road signs are exempt from the Irish Language Act.

Most of the designs proposed in this thread use colour to differentiate between English and Irish, and this means it can be argued that they're still not equally prominent. But the Irish is a lot more prominent than in our current road signs.

As for all capitals being less legible, thats true I cannot argue with the research. The effect is only noticed in words you expect to see and is not observed in unknown words. Even when a difference is noticed it is marginal at best. 10-15%. In an ideal world there would be an argument for mixed case but it does not fit the constraints of Irish sign design costs and legislation. The designers chose larger upper case rather than smaller mixed case. The signs are designed to be legible at a given distance no matter what the font size.

Most of the mockups here don't reduce the font size at all. Once again, I would point you to That username's first few posts on Page 1.

The sign designers would have been aware of this research you point out and had a good reason not to go with it. The decisions were not taken on a whim.

The way people talk about the NRA here you'd swear that the design scheme was drawn up on the back or a beer mat late one friday evening in the pub after work.

I don't know exactly when exactly the current design came into being but AFAIK it was before the existence of the NRA.

I appreciate your frustration at people mouthing off on an internet forum about supposed incompetent fools running the country. Really, I do. But take a look (with fresh eyes) at the design we use for road signs in this country. The Irish is in italics. In ****ing ITALICS!!! Where else in the world have you seen road signs in italics? Where's the research into the legibility of roadsigns written in italics? Answer: there probably isn't any. Because putting placenames on roadsigns in italics is bizarre. As pointed out earlier in this thread (which, no offence intended, you don't seem to have bothered to read), it's clearly just a fudge. The Irish is in italics because it's not actually meant to be read by anyone. And that strikes me and many others as a political decision rather than a design decision.

As I said in reality there would have been dozens of meetings, consultations with graphic designers, numerous prototypes made...

Or there was a copy of the UK Traffic Signs Manual, the Transport font, and the italics button on a word processor.

As a highly pedantic aside, if you want one example of where legibility and design have not been given much thought in Irish sign design, you need only look at Irish signage's treatment of the Motorway font. Motorway is a font designed in the UK for use on route numbers on motorways. It is used in a very large size for all route numbers signed from a motorway, like this. Off-motorway, all route numbers, including those for motorways are in Transport, like this. In Ireland, this seems to have been misunderstood. Motorway is used for motorway numbers, regardless of where they appear. On the motorway itself, other route numbers appear in Transport. The NRA have completely misunderstood the font's intended use and for some reason have gone ahead and used it anyway. It's little things like this, along with stretched placenames and the dodgy gantries installed on many motorways a few years ago, that lead to suspicion that things aren't as well thought out as you seem to think. Empire's point about the misuse of font weights is another fine example of thoughtless design.

...and the one chose was the one thought to best fit all the constraints. Of course there are sacrifices - but engineering is about making the best within the limitations set out. In the real world, where these engineers live, they have to consider everything like cost vs legibility whilst keeping within the limitations of various statutes.

While it may sound very authoritative to talk about design constraints and living in the real world, none of it really rings true in this case. The suspicion by many that the sign design is thrown together is not entirely groundless. The evidence is plain for all to see.

Empire o de Sun

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I dismiss the prototypes suggested because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design

I maybe an amateur but I do draw them to scale in terms of the x-height. Where 4 sw (stroke/width) units here equals 1 x-height

Empire o de Sun

Boxing the route number would not be new in ireland, it was done on the original motorway signage in the 80's, this photo was taken by murphaph from sabre-roads.org.uk. This sign is now gone since the tunnel was openend.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=File:M1_motorway_southbound_-_Coppermine_-_5202.JPG

That username is already in use.

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This is incredible work, Empire. Exactly what I was trying to portray. May I ask, are you using Illustrator?

(And thanks again to Jayuu for his work also.)

A lot of thought has gone into them, not only in improving font readability, but also in displaying route numbers and other info.

Empire, Clearview is definitely the way forward. It is so much better than Transport, now that I have compared both in several print-outs from this thread.

I will forward a few of the mock-ups in this thread to a couple of Irish-language forums and also to some Irish transport-related forums for discussion. I'll post here a summary of findings.

The next step would be to round up a consortium of Irish language / Transport groups and get in touch the various government departments that would be interested in this subject. I will of course consult all of you that have contributed to this thread before doing so.

In the meantime, keep posting your ideas and feedback.

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Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

dubhthach

That username is already in use. wrote: »

---

Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

I'd appreciate if you didn't try "backseat modding" the thread. Don't get me wrong I do agree with your point about what the thread is or not about, however if you do have concerns about posts derailing thread etc please report it to myself or one of the other mods.

SeanW

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

I disagree, this *entire* thread is predicated almost exclusively on the opinion that the Irish language place names are not emphasised strongly enough.

• As an English speaker, I have never had any problems using Ireland's road signs; in fact I quite like them, for the most part.
• The difference in style between the Irish (which must be first despite its less common usage) and English makes it easier for me to filter out the irrelevant data. Every single one of the proposals thus far would eliminate, either in part or in full, that advantage to the current signage.
• Partly related to the point above, I'm sure anyone who only speaks Irish (all 3 of them?) appreciates being able to determine their information quickly - the placename they need is at the top and in italics.
• The proposals on this thread seem - at first glance - to be pursuing "equal" billing for English and Irish placenames, but as I've outlined, this would leave the Irish placename dominating the sign where it is 2-3 times more verbose than it's English language placename, like with Dublin, Mullingar, Ardee, Fermoy etc. All of the proposals share this flaw. Aggravating this problem is, again, the key point that the Irish language version must be first.
• More colours = more expense. And again, I tend to notice that yellow "jumps out" at one more than white.

The next step would be to round up a consortium of Irish language ... groups

Why would they get involved ... unless for another opportunity to ram the language down everyone's throats or get poist do na buachaillí (jobs for the boys) doing irrelevant translations etc.