Bilingual Road Signs in Ireland

etchyed

eia340600 wrote: »

The proposals look good, with the mixed font seeming to be more legible.I think that we should just have one name for places.If that means that Athlone is Baile Átha Luain and Grafton Street stays as it is, so be it.If it was an English name first, leave it.If it was an Irish name first leave that...Much less "confusing".

That's a whole new can of worms you're opening there. The reality is the vast majority of names come from Irish. People would be up in arms. Look at Dingle, for example.

Not to mention that this is a thread about road signs and the signs should be designed to suit the placenames rather than vice versa.

oppenheimer1

etchyed wrote: »

There's plenty wrong with it. It would be nice of you to read some of the problems people (including me) have posted and address them rather than wade into this thread months later and dismiss them all in one sentence.

Isn't that what the forum is for. I'm sorry I didn't realise I had to post on the first page to be entitled to comment :rolleyes:

I dismiss the prototypes suggested because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design. They do not take into consideration all the constraints that the NRA has to. That is a low cost sign that presents enough information clearly to allow a driver to make a safe manoeuvre in enough time. Multi colour signs are expensive, they also do not fit well with the existing design scheme. The NRA also is constrained by the Irish language act which it has to give equal prominence to Irish place names.

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

hummm,

http://books.google.ie/books?id=fMZlnmS5YDMC&lpg=SA11-PA14&ots=nfNhQtBsKg&dq=Mixed%20Case%20Upper%20Case%20Road%20Sign&pg=SA11-PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

I think mixed case wins.

As for all capitals being less legible, thats true I cannot argue with the research. The effect is only noticed in words you expect to see and is not observed in unknown words. Even when a difference is noticed it is marginal at best. 10-15%. In an ideal world there would be an argument for mixed case but it does not fit the constraints of Irish sign design costs and legislation. The designers chose larger upper case rather than smaller mixed case. The signs are designed to be legible at a given distance no matter what the font size. The sign designers would have been aware of this research you point out and had a good reason not to go with it. The decisions were not taken on a whim.

The way people talk about the NRA here you'd swear that the design scheme was drawn up on the back or a beer mat late one friday evening in the pub after work. As I said in reality there would have been dozens of meetings, consultations with graphic designers, numerous prototypes made and the one chose was the one thought to best fit all the constraints. Of course there are sacrifices - but engineering is about making the best within the limitations set out. In the real world, where these engineers live, they have to consider everything like cost vs legibility whilst keeping within the limitations of various statutes.

Empire o de Sun

The current font "Transport heavy" is used on all road signs, motorway, national and regional. It is designed for dark text on light background (regional roads), not light text on dark (motorways & natinoal roads) as is used on Ireland.

So thought may have gone in, but not enough.

oppenheimer1

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

The current font "Transport heavy" is used on all road signs, motorway, national and regional. It is designed for dark text on light background (regional roads), not light text on dark (motorways & natinoal roads) as is used on Ireland.

So thought may have gone in, but not enough.

Just because it is not designed for it doesn't mean it doesn't perform adequately. I cannot think of any instance where a new road sign has confused me or been illegible.

etchyed

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Isn't that what the forum is for.

The forum is for debate and discussion. Stating your opinion as fact without reasons is not good debating.

I'm sorry I didn't realise I had to post on the first page to be entitled to comment :rolleyes:

Please don't twist my words. That's obviously not what I meant and construing it that way is not constructive .

I dismiss the prototypes suggested...

I wasn't referring to you dismissing the mockups. I was referring to your dismissal of the reasons for attempting them in the first place, stating as you did that:

There is nothing actually wrong with the existing signage design guide.

There was much discussion in this thread about the merits of the existing signs and what, indeed, is wrong with them. You seem to have chosen to ignore that. If you disagree, fair enough, but please argue why.



But regardless, to deal with the rest of your post:

...because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design.

Actually most of them don't attempt to design anything, as they mainly use existing sign designs and typefaces from other countries to show what such implementations would look like in Ireland.

They do not take into consideration all the constraints that the NRA has to. That is a low cost sign that presents enough information clearly to allow a driver to make a safe manoeuvre in enough time.

I agree with you that some of them are too cluttered or have unnecessary elements but some of them, particularly those from That username's posts on the first page, are in no way different to current signage save for the use of mixed case and coloured text.

Multi colour signs are expensive...

Do you have any idea how much extra a multicolour sign costs? A huge number of roadsigns nowadays are patched and thus use multiple colours. Even a non-patched N-road sign uses gold lettering for route numbers. So multicoloured signs are pretty commonplace already.

they also do not fit well with the existing design scheme.

This is a hypothetical discussion about entirely replacing the existing design scheme, so I don't see how that's important.

The NRA also is constrained by the Irish language act which it has to give equal prominence to Irish place names.

Nope. Current road signs don't give equal prominence to Irish place names. Have you looked at them? Road signs are exempt from the Irish Language Act.

Most of the designs proposed in this thread use colour to differentiate between English and Irish, and this means it can be argued that they're still not equally prominent. But the Irish is a lot more prominent than in our current road signs.

As for all capitals being less legible, thats true I cannot argue with the research. The effect is only noticed in words you expect to see and is not observed in unknown words. Even when a difference is noticed it is marginal at best. 10-15%. In an ideal world there would be an argument for mixed case but it does not fit the constraints of Irish sign design costs and legislation. The designers chose larger upper case rather than smaller mixed case. The signs are designed to be legible at a given distance no matter what the font size.

Most of the mockups here don't reduce the font size at all. Once again, I would point you to That username's first few posts on Page 1.

The sign designers would have been aware of this research you point out and had a good reason not to go with it. The decisions were not taken on a whim.

The way people talk about the NRA here you'd swear that the design scheme was drawn up on the back or a beer mat late one friday evening in the pub after work.

I don't know exactly when exactly the current design came into being but AFAIK it was before the existence of the NRA.

I appreciate your frustration at people mouthing off on an internet forum about supposed incompetent fools running the country. Really, I do. But take a look (with fresh eyes) at the design we use for road signs in this country. The Irish is in italics. In ****ing ITALICS!!! Where else in the world have you seen road signs in italics? Where's the research into the legibility of roadsigns written in italics? Answer: there probably isn't any. Because putting placenames on roadsigns in italics is bizarre. As pointed out earlier in this thread (which, no offence intended, you don't seem to have bothered to read), it's clearly just a fudge. The Irish is in italics because it's not actually meant to be read by anyone. And that strikes me and many others as a political decision rather than a design decision.

As I said in reality there would have been dozens of meetings, consultations with graphic designers, numerous prototypes made...

Or there was a copy of the UK Traffic Signs Manual, the Transport font, and the italics button on a word processor.

As a highly pedantic aside, if you want one example of where legibility and design have not been given much thought in Irish sign design, you need only look at Irish signage's treatment of the Motorway font. Motorway is a font designed in the UK for use on route numbers on motorways. It is used in a very large size for all route numbers signed from a motorway, like this. Off-motorway, all route numbers, including those for motorways are in Transport, like this. In Ireland, this seems to have been misunderstood. Motorway is used for motorway numbers, regardless of where they appear. On the motorway itself, other route numbers appear in Transport. The NRA have completely misunderstood the font's intended use and for some reason have gone ahead and used it anyway. It's little things like this, along with stretched placenames and the dodgy gantries installed on many motorways a few years ago, that lead to suspicion that things aren't as well thought out as you seem to think. Empire's point about the misuse of font weights is another fine example of thoughtless design.

...and the one chose was the one thought to best fit all the constraints. Of course there are sacrifices - but engineering is about making the best within the limitations set out. In the real world, where these engineers live, they have to consider everything like cost vs legibility whilst keeping within the limitations of various statutes.

While it may sound very authoritative to talk about design constraints and living in the real world, none of it really rings true in this case. The suspicion by many that the sign design is thrown together is not entirely groundless. The evidence is plain for all to see.

Empire o de Sun

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I dismiss the prototypes suggested because they are nothing more than amateur attempts at graphic design

I maybe an amateur but I do draw them to scale in terms of the x-height. Where 4 sw (stroke/width) units here equals 1 x-height

Empire o de Sun

Boxing the route number would not be new in ireland, it was done on the original motorway signage in the 80's, this photo was taken by murphaph from sabre-roads.org.uk. This sign is now gone since the tunnel was openend.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=File:M1_motorway_southbound_-_Coppermine_-_5202.JPG

That username is already in use.

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

This is incredible work, Empire. Exactly what I was trying to portray. May I ask, are you using Illustrator?

(And thanks again to Jayuu for his work also.)

A lot of thought has gone into them, not only in improving font readability, but also in displaying route numbers and other info.

Empire, Clearview is definitely the way forward. It is so much better than Transport, now that I have compared both in several print-outs from this thread.

I will forward a few of the mock-ups in this thread to a couple of Irish-language forums and also to some Irish transport-related forums for discussion. I'll post here a summary of findings.

The next step would be to round up a consortium of Irish language / Transport groups and get in touch the various government departments that would be interested in this subject. I will of course consult all of you that have contributed to this thread before doing so.

In the meantime, keep posting your ideas and feedback.

---

Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

dubhthach

That username is already in use. wrote: »

---

Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

I'd appreciate if you didn't try "backseat modding" the thread. Don't get me wrong I do agree with your point about what the thread is or not about, however if you do have concerns about posts derailing thread etc please report it to myself or one of the other mods.

SeanW

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Can I please remind people in this thread that this is not a discussion on whether Irish should or shouldn't be on the current signage, nor is it a discussion on the Irish language itself.

Bilingual signage is here to stay. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to better display both languages.

I would appreciate if Mods could delete any posts that try and derail the thread into an "Irish is dead" discussion. Thanks.

I disagree, this *entire* thread is predicated almost exclusively on the opinion that the Irish language place names are not emphasised strongly enough.

• As an English speaker, I have never had any problems using Ireland's road signs; in fact I quite like them, for the most part.
• The difference in style between the Irish (which must be first despite its less common usage) and English makes it easier for me to filter out the irrelevant data. Every single one of the proposals thus far would eliminate, either in part or in full, that advantage to the current signage.
• Partly related to the point above, I'm sure anyone who only speaks Irish (all 3 of them?) appreciates being able to determine their information quickly - the placename they need is at the top and in italics.
• The proposals on this thread seem - at first glance - to be pursuing "equal" billing for English and Irish placenames, but as I've outlined, this would leave the Irish placename dominating the sign where it is 2-3 times more verbose than it's English language placename, like with Dublin, Mullingar, Ardee, Fermoy etc. All of the proposals share this flaw. Aggravating this problem is, again, the key point that the Irish language version must be first.
• More colours = more expense. And again, I tend to notice that yellow "jumps out" at one more than white.

The next step would be to round up a consortium of Irish language ... groups

Why would they get involved ... unless for another opportunity to ram the language down everyone's throats or get poist do na buachaillí (jobs for the boys) doing irrelevant translations etc.

ardmacha

The proposals on this thread seem - at first glance - to be pursuing "equal" billing for English and Irish placenames, but as I've outlined, this would leave the Irish placename dominating the sign where it is 2-3 times more verbose than it's English language placename, like with Dublin, Mullingar, Ardee, Fermoy etc. All of the proposals share this flaw. Aggravating this problem is, again, the key point that the Irish language version must be first.

It is simple enough, the sign designs proposed relate to the law as it currently stands. As previous posters have said proposals to change laws or policies on languages belong to another forum.

gbee

I'd prefer one language, English on the road signs, Irish in those gaeltach areas provided the town or village is actually called its Irish name in common usage and appear on the map as such.

Failing that, the Irish in a different colour would help me IGNORE it.

We are suffering from singage blindness and to be honest cluttering up signs with Irish and English is just unsafe.

I hate Irish, never got on with it and I've struggled trying to read the darn signs, and especially as it does not come naturally to me I'm slow to read it and I often miss where I am going because I don't read fast enough through the Irish to get to the English bit that I understand.

So I'd go with a different colour so I can then train myself only to look a the English bits.

SeanW

I broadly agree gbee, but I've developed an instinctive ability to filter out the Irish language place names, based on the expectation that it's first, in italics, and mixed case. I automatically look below for the uppercase lettering. That's why I have such strong personal reservations about the proposals in this thread, some of the posters in this thread - including the OP with their "Proposal 1" - are trying to make this impossible.

It is simple enough, the sign designs proposed relate to the law as it currently stands. As previous posters have said proposals to change laws or policies on languages belong to another forum.

The current signs comply with current legislation. What is being sought here is something resembling a change in policy. Which, if I understood correctly, was the one thing this thread has been masquerading as trying to avoid.

Cathaoirleach

If you have 5 minutes to spare, now is the time to request that newly erected signage in the State have equal status between Irish and English. The survey will end soon so try and submit it asap.

There is a box at the bottom where you can add a comment. Just write something like this:

"The Traffic Signs Manual needs to be updated to give equal status between Irish and English on new road signage in the State"

http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/Consultations/ReviewoftheOfficialLanguagesAct2003/Survey/ (Click survey HTML)

L1011

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

If you have 5 minutes to spare, now is the time to request that newly erected signage in the State have equal status between Irish and English. The survey will end soon so try and submit it asap.

Its also time for those of us who find this a complete waste of money to make submissions (I already did, some time ago). The form on that site is entirely slanted towards those who believe the OLA should be extended, not retracted, in scope though.

monument

Oh, the second last post before this one may have just backfired.

L1011

There's another template for general submissions which only has one loaded pro-Irish question on it compared to that entire form being loaded.

Cathaoirleach

MYOB,

It doesn't matter if your against the OLA, you can still submit the survey.

The Traffic Signs Manual will come into consideration during the OLA review so if you want the Irish placenames abolished from all traffic signage in the State, now would be the time to send your feedback.

Good luck.

SeanW

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

If you have 5 minutes to spare, now is the time to request that newly erected signage in the State have equal status between Irish and English. The survey will end soon so try and submit it asap.

There is a box at the bottom where you can add a comment. Just write something like this:

"The Traffic Signs Manual needs to be updated to give equal status between Irish and English on new road signage in the State"

http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/Consultations/ReviewoftheOfficialLanguagesAct2003/Survey/ (Click survey HTML)

I'm not sure what you want exactly, the Irish language is already given preferential treatment over English on our road signs. Do you really think

MAINISTEIR FHEAR MAÍ
FERMOY

is equal, or

BAILE ATHA FHIRDIA
ARDEE

All your suggested "improvements" will do is confuse people and ram the language down the throats of people who consider it irrelevant. Which is probably the whole point.
I on the other hand, think that road signs should actually INFORM people rather than serving some narrow poxy agenda. These the current signs do very well, partly because we are used to them so the English speakers can quickly filter out the irrelevant information. Ultimately though, the Irish language versions come first on signs despite hardly anyone speaking the language. That's far enough!

Solair

I hope the IMF isn't watching as we debate the merits of wasting vast amounts of money changing a perfectly effective signage system to placate language pendants.

Signs are for telling you were things are!!

Ireland's main problem is that once you're off the motorways or relatively major primary routes, the signs are often pathetically bad or non existent.

I wouldn't much rather see effort going into upgrading secondary and R road signage than this nonsense.

Also, has nobody noticed? WE ARE BANKRUPT AND IN RECEIVERSHIP!!! The priority should be finishing unfinished road projects and maintenance of new infrastructure.
I gave a horrible feeling we won't have the funds for adequate road maintenance before long!

If common sense prevails, then only signs that "need" replacing will be replaced with ones conforming to any new standards.

There would be no need to replace signs just for the sake of it!

L1011

Inability to pay for little to no users (e.g. translation of county development plans that never, ever get bought in Irish) and zero Irish-monoglots in the country are the reasons I put in my submission as to why the OLA should be suspended en masse until the economy recovers and then reactivated solely on an actual needs basis.

Red Actor

The OLA puts meat on the constitutional provision that Irish is the first official language. I find it strange that so many people claim to use Irish on a regular basis on their census froms - a bit of nationalism? I wonder what the outcome of a referendum to change the status of the Irish language would be? I would vote in favour of it being removed as the first language.

dubhthach

Mod
Folks if you want to have a debate about the official status of the Irish language take it to Politics forum it isn't relevant here.

Carawaystick

etchyed wrote: »

The Irish is in italics. In ****ing ITALICS!!! Where else in the world have you seen road signs in italics? Where's the research into the legibility of roadsigns written in italics? Answer: there probably isn't any. Because putting placenames on roadsigns in italics is bizarre. As pointed out earlier in this thread (which, no offence intended, you don't seem to have bothered to read), it's clearly just a fudge. The Irish is in italics because it's not actually meant to be read by anyone. And that strikes me and many others as a political decision rather than a design decision.

They use italisc in France, and I'm fairly sure I saw something in italics in a picture of Scotland

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.442264,-7.624512&spn=4.097141,11.37085&z=7

Cathaoirleach

etchyed is right. Italics was a terrible choice.

The idea of italics came from a certaint unqualified Wexford TD for the Dept of the Environment back in the mid 90s. That's right, not even the Dept of Transport!

etchyed

Carawaystick wrote: »

They use italisc in France, and I'm fairly sure I saw something in italics in a picture of Scotland

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.442264,-7.624512&spn=4.097141,11.37085&z=7

Italics are used in France, fair enough, but only for things like tourist destinations, service areas, airports etc. However France is the only country I can think of where they are used and the italics on French signs are a lot more legible and better designed than the ones here.

In fact, italics is the wrong term for the font used for Irish road signs, the Irish is in Transport oblique, meaning the letters do not have an italic form that has actually been designed by a font designer, but are just forced into that shape by a computer. This is why they look crap and the French ones don't.

Italics are not used for Scots Gaelic placenames, they are written in yellow.

etchyed

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

etchyed is right. Italics was a terrible choice.

The idea of italics came from a certaint unqualified Wexford TD for the Dept of the Environment back in the mid 90s. That's right, not even the Dept of Transport!

Thank you, I'd been wondering where this abomination came from, and surprise, surprise, it turns out to have been a politician. Rather puts paid to the notion that...

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

...in reality there would have been dozens of meetings, consultations with graphic designers, numerous prototypes made and the one chose was the one thought to best fit all the constraints

Any more details of how this godawful design came about, Cathaoirleach? The Irish was at one stage mixed-case non-italicised. What happened?

L1011

etchyed wrote: »

Italics are not used for Scots Gaelic placenames, they are written in yellow.

Something the currently unfit-for-purpose Dev Og ejaculation that makes up the OLA does not allow.

Cathaoirleach

etchyed wrote: »

In fact, italics is the wrong term for the font used for Irish road signs, the Irish is in Transport oblique, meaning the letters do not have an italic form that has actually been designed by a font designer, but are just forced into that shape by a computer. This is why they look crap and the French ones don't.

There's a good analysis by Garret Reil about how the UK Transport typeface was effectively butchered on Irish road signs. (are you Garret?)

The typeface used for Irish language place names uses modified characters which damage the legibility. These alterations were made without the assistance of an experienced designer and no significant testing was undertaken.

Furthermore italics are not recommended for road sign use. To make matters worse, there is no correctly designed italic version of the Transport type. The Irish ‘italic’ is force inclined – damaging the quality of the letter forms as originally designed.

Garret on the use of uppercase for English:

Upper and lower case place names achieve better clarity in the same space as upper case, in part because the ‘shape’ of letters and words is more pronounced.

Moreover, the Transport typeface was specifically designed to be used in upper and lowercase and not to do so thwarts its intent.

etchyed wrote: »

Any more details of how this godawful design came about, Cathaoirleach? The Irish was at one stage mixed-case non-italicised. What happened?

There is an in depth discussion about it here (Google Translate), which has a lot more details than the other threads online.

Brendan Howlin TD, then Minister for the Environment, was responsible for the Traffic Signs Manual:

Brendan Howlin TD (1997) wrote:

A traffic signs manual which I published last December (1996) covers all other aspects of road signage. It is a code of good practice which will help to ensure that we have an effective and well maintained traffic sign system.

Did Howlin consult any design professionals at the time? What self-respecting designer would ever recommend the use of forced italics and ALL UPPERCASE on a typeface that it was never designed for, especially for something as important as road signage for an entire country?

All I want to see is a review of the Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) in relation to the use of typeface. It would not cost much to edit the TSM and use the UK Transport typeface as it was intended: mixed case, no italics.

No current signage would change. Only new traffic signs erected after the publication of a new TSM.