How to respond to a flasher

fatmammycat

Because flashers are movers. Short of chasing them down, rugby tackling the to the ground and sitting on them until the gardai deign to arrive, what would you have us do? Unless there is a convenient squad car in the location it's almost impossible to have a flasher caught.

LittleBook

I've often wondered myself how prevalent this is.

I've been flashed three times ... twice as a teenager (in a park and walking to school) and once as an adult (in St Stephen's Green).

My friends and I have openly discussed this and all of them (five at that particular dinner) have had similar experiences as children and/or as adults ... and that's excluding the relatively "harmless" mooning or being flashed by stags on Saturday nights in town.

fatmammycat put it perfectly ... flashers ... real flashers ... are movers, sometimes it happens so quickly they're actually gone before you've processed what has happened.

Nevyn

28064212 wrote: »

Do you think Hollaback's stated policy of posting pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed a sexual assault is a good one?

I am not comfortable with uncensorsed pictures, I do think women taking them is a good idea and having them stored in a place which is not their phone.


I do think naming where it happened, saying what happened and a general description is a good thing, often street offenders hang out in the same place day after day doing this to more then a handful of women and if enough women report it and the data is collected then a case can be built against them.

TitoPuente

bluewolf wrote: »

How many have the presence of mind to have evidence?
If you're flashed, you go and say "this happened but I have no proof", guy might say "no idea, she's crazy", no witnesses, nothing is gonna happen.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Gardaí take these matters very seriously. If there is simply no evidence whatsoever then they might have a tough time getting a conviction but at least if it's investigated, repeat offenders will be known to Gardaí and easier to identify. I simply can't understand this 'nothing is going to happen', 'the Gardaí and justice system won't help me' attitude. It's absolute nonsense. Of course you're not always going to get a conviction without evidence but at least report it FFS.

As for that 'holler' website. In my opinion, if you're posting pictures of men on a website, accusing them of sexual harassment or assault without any evidence and not entitling them to due process or giving them a chance to defend themselves, you're as bad as rapist. I'm sorry but that's how I feel. Falsely accusing someone of sexual deviancy or rape is as damaging as the crime itself. End of story.

28064212

fatmammycat wrote: »

Because flashers are movers. Short of chasing them down, rugby tackling the to the ground and sitting on them until the gardai deign to arrive, what would you have us do?

Report them, like any other crime. Yes, they might not catch them. This time. On the other hand, they will have a record that there was an incident there, and if it happens again in the area, they will have your report and be able to contact you for an identification, as well as being able to issue advisorys to people in the area, and they'll be included in statistics (both for internal and external use)

fatmammycat wrote: »

Unless there is a convenient squad car in the location it's almost impossible to have a flasher caught.

There won't be a convenient squad car unless there's a reason to have one in a particular area, like, say, multiple reports of a flasher operating there.

And that's before you get into the possibilities of nearby CCTV and/or witnesses being able to identify a person leaving the area. It's a crime, report it like any other. If you got mugged, would you just walk away on the basis that they might not be caught?

28064212

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am not comfortable with uncensorsed pictures, I do think women taking them is a good idea and having them stored in a place which is not their phone.

Agree, but that other storage place should not be a website. The best place for them is submitted as evidence to the police asap

Thaedydal wrote: »

I do think naming where it happened, saying what happened and a general description is a good thing, often street offenders hang out in the same place day after day doing this to more then a handful of women

"naming where it happened, saying what happened" - Absolutely agree.

"A general description" - debatable. Anything close to personally identifiable is an accusation and should be handled by the police and justice system, not some self-appointed name-and-shame website.

Thaedydal wrote: »

if enough women report it and the data is collected then a case can be built against them.

Absolutely, and that data should be submitted to and collected by the police

fatmammycat

I HAVE reported flashers in the past, especially the one who operated in Sundrive near the kid's playground. And believe me when I tell you, the guard I reported him to could not have been less interested if he tried.
I WILL report any flasher in the future, as well as hopefully having the wit and pressence of mind to use my phone to take a picture. What I am saying is I understand why many women don't bother. It's a rapid action, and then they are gone, a lot of women feel it won't be taken seriously.

coffee_cake

TitoPuente wrote: »

I think we can all agree that these acts are wrong, that's for sure. So why aren't more people jailed for it? I've only witnessed flashing a few times and it was reasonably tame. From what I can gather here though, nearly every single woman in Ireland has been sexually harassed and/or assaulted on numerous occasions. Why aren't more men doing time for it? Personally, I don't buy the whole "the Gardaí won't take me seriously" story either. If women were to go through the right channels, these crimes would be properly investigated and more and more men would be prosecuted and jailed.

So if it's so rampant, why aren't there numerous daily convictions?

TitoPuente wrote: »

I'm sorry but I disagree. Gardaí take these matters very seriously. If there is simply no evidence whatsoever then they might have a tough time getting a conviction but at least if it's investigated, repeat offenders will be known to Gardaí and easier to identify. I simply can't understand this 'nothing is going to happen', 'the Gardaí and justice system won't help me' attitude. It's absolute nonsense. Of course you're not always going to get a conviction without evidence but at least report it FFS.
.

Ok...
so in other words we agree

TitoPuente

fatmammycat wrote: »

I HAVE reported flashers in the past, especially the one who operated in Sundrive near the kid's playground. And believe me when I tell you, the guard I reported him to could not have been less interested if he tried.

Do you have a solicitor? If so, bring them with you the next time you make the report and have them follow up with the investigation. See how seriously you're taken then.

TitoPuente

bluewolf wrote: »

Ok...
so in other words we agree

Okay, so women everywhere are being sexually harassed and assulted countrywide on a daily basis and nothing is being done about it and it's not being reported. Fook me, if I were a woman I'd be up in arms and in fear of my life, albeit organising weekly protests and demonstrations to stop this sexual slaughter.

On the upside, I feel quite honoured to be one of the few remaining men in this country that isn't an evil, rapey sexual predator. Or maybe there are just a small, hardcore group of men in Ireland who are running around assaulting the whole female population. *Sigh* I just don't know anymore.

coffee_cake

TitoPuente wrote: »

Okay, so women everywhere are being sexually harassed and assulted countrywide on a daily basis and nothing is being done about it and it's not being reported. Fook me, if I were a woman I'd be up in arms and in fear of my life, albeit organising weekly protests and demonstrations to stop this sexual slaughter.

On the upside, I feel quite honoured to be one of the few remaining men in this country that isn't an evil, rapey sexual predator. Or maybe there are just a small, hardcore group of men in Ireland who are running around assaulting the whole female population. *Sigh* I just don't know anymore.

TP, I think you are a bit confused.
You asked why there aren't numerous convictions.
I said because there generally won't be evidence.
You then replied with a rant about reporting it and agreeing there won't be evidence and convictions.

I'm not sure where you have gotten your little rant above from.

Nevyn

TitoPuente wrote: »

Do you have a solicitor? If so, bring them with you the next time you make the report and have them follow up with the investigation. See how seriously you're taken then.

Do you honestly think that the average irish person has a solicitor on call?
Or that they have the time and money to get a solicitor to go with them to a garda station after their report wasn't taken seriously?

28064212

fatmammycat wrote: »

I HAVE reported flashers in the past, especially the one who operated in Sundrive near the kid's playground. And believe me when I tell you, the guard I reported him to could not have been less interested if he tried.
I WILL report any flasher in the future, as well as hopefully having the wit and pressence of mind to use my phone to take a picture. What I am saying is I understand why many women don't bother. It's a rapid action, and then they are gone, a lot of women feel it won't be taken seriously.

And I understand why many people don't bother reporting a mugging, or even just a common assault.

Reporting it is the most effective thing you can do

fatmammycat

It is and that is why I will continue to do so.

IvyTheTerrible

A friend of mine got flashed one evening after leaving my house; She just laughed at him and he went away. She couldn't see why it was important to report him. I'm not sure how police in France respond to complaints of this nature though.

Maple

fatmammycat wrote: »

It is and that is why I will continue to do so.

It's also an idea to take the badge number and name of the Garda that you report the offence to. That way you can chase with them directly and if you've no joy then you can escalate it stating that you've spoken with Garda X on X dates.

Cat Melodeon

TitoPuente wrote: »

I'm sorry but I disagree. Gardaí take these matters very seriously. If there is simply no evidence whatsoever then they might have a tough time getting a conviction but at least if it's investigated, repeat offenders will be known to Gardaí and easier to identify. I simply can't understand this 'nothing is going to happen', 'the Gardaí and justice system won't help me' attitude. It's absolute nonsense. Of course you're not always going to get a conviction without evidence but at least report it FFS.

I am not one to slag off the gardaí - generally I think they do a good job, have friends who are gardaí etc. However, in 1998 I was a student in Dublin, had a part-time job in a pub about 3 mins walk from my home. One night walking home from work (about 2.30am, sober and fairly alert) I was attacked within sight of my house, floored before I knew it with a blow to the side of the head and dragged into a driveway. It was an attempted rape, thwarted because I'm a strong lass, but had he a weapon that would have been me. Out of frustration, he kicked the crap out of me - I had cracked teeth, fractures, black eyes etc. After about 3 mins of this (might not seem long but having the crap kicked out of you makes it feel like an eternity) the shock began to fade and I managed to scream and shout. He kept at it until a car drove close by, then he legged it.

I got home, got my flatmates up, they called the cops who were very good and arrived within 10 mins. They took me in the squad car around the area to see if I could identify the guy, then on to the hospital. They said they'd call around the next day with a book of known suspects. I didn't hear from them again until ELEVEN months later, despite making a number of calls to them and having a friend of mine who was working in the same station chase them up. When they did finally contact me again, there was no way I was able to remember for sure what the guy looked like. They had also reported it as a mugging, not an attempted rape.

This was a serious incident. It was NOT dealt with professionally. It was NOT taken seriously. Even when women do report such incidents and there is evidence, cases are not always investigated, when they are and charges are brought, the sentences for crimes against women are ridiculously low, sometimes even suspended.

Saying that the Gardaí and the justice system won't help is not nonsense, it is the reality for very many people (and not just women).

28064212

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

This was a serious incident. It was NOT dealt with professionally. It was NOT taken seriously. Even when women do report such incidents and there is evidence, cases are not always investigated, when they are and charges are brought, the sentences for crimes against women are ridiculously low, sometimes even suspended.

Both instances of 'women' in that paragraph can be replaced with 'people' (or 'men') and be equally as valid. This isn't a gender issue, it's a justice system issue.

I'm sorry to hear about the way you were treated and applaud your mental strength, and I hope the bastard got what was coming to him

LittleBook

Sarannewrap wrote: »

we just screamed and ran away:o

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I just pointed and laughed.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I raise a fuss and yell

Faith wrote: »

I always joke that if I was flashed, I'd stop and attempt to interview the guy about why he's doing it :P.

EMF2010 wrote: »

We used to just laugh and tell him to put it away

Leelaa22 wrote: »

Point and laugh at the size. Just keep pointing and laughing

Feeona wrote: »

This. And/or make a scene!

catthinkin wrote: »

she said aye that looks like a willy only wayyyy smaller , didnt stop walking either

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

At first we walked away all shocked and giggly

echosound wrote: »

the best way to react to a flasher in my experience is to laugh and point and belittle them, and kick up a stink

Norwayviking wrote: »

How about a good kick up the nuts.That usually drops most flashers:D

fatmammycat wrote: »

It's so common people make light of it, and use cutesy terminology like 'willy waggler' and so on

ztoical wrote: »

I just rolled my eyes and walked on.

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

She just laughed at him and he went away

Any suggestions ladies as to why reporting the incident seems/seemed to be the last thing on our minds (unless children may be at risk). It certainly never even dawned on me to do so, the pointing and laughing thing was/is considered the way to go but I don't know why.

Was pointing and laughing the reaction recommended to me as a child?

Or do I assume it's a waste of my time trying to report it?

Do I think "no big deal, if that's the worst thing that ever happens to me, I'll be grand"?

And if it's "no big deal", is that because I'm inured to it? Or is it simply that, in the greater scheme of things, it just isn't a big enough deal (in my mind) to involve the police?

[Faith, this thread must be gold for your thesis ]

Otis Driftwood

jujibee wrote: »

Sorry, I have to call BS on this one. My family lived in Japan and my mother would routinly come home upset because strange men were rubbing on her, touching her etc. The trains in Japan are so crowded that at times you literally can not move your arms. This might cause issues for people so I am putting it in a spoiler

If you wear a skirt there are good odds you will get fingered intimately on the train, guys will rub their penis on you, etc and there is not much you can do about it

The day my parents company transfered them back home she was ecstatic.

This happens to women there all the time and they are not paid and they do not consent.

I didnt say that this didnt happen IRL or that any/many/most of the cases wernt genuine did I?

I just said that there is a market for clips like Liah mentioned,particularly in Japan so Id rather you didnt twist my words thanks.

Leelaa22

LittleBook wrote: »

Any suggestions ladies as to why reporting the incident seems/seemed to be the last thing on our minds (unless children may be at risk). It certainly never even dawned on me to do so, the pointing and laughing thing was/is considered the way to go but I don't know why.

Was pointing and laughing the reaction recommended to me as a child?

Or do I assume it's a waste of my time trying to report it?

Do I think "no big deal, if that's the worst thing that ever happens to me, I'll be grand"?

And if it's "no big deal", is that because I'm inured to it? Or is it simply that, in the greater scheme of things, it just isn't a big enough deal (in my mind) to involve the police?

[Faith, this thread must be gold for your thesis ]

I said point and laugh too. For a few reasons.
I'm not strong enough to kick the crap out of who ever it is and I honestly dont think much would be done by the gards.
I was involved in an incident on a bus recently, and i called the gards they took my statement the next day, told me they knew who the bad guys were, and that was the last of it. nothing happened.

So pointing and laughing is the way I'd go.
If I ever did become ripped I'd kick the crap out of them.

Ectoplasm

TitoPuente wrote: »

Okay, so women everywhere are being sexually harassed and assulted countrywide on a daily basis and nothing is being done about it and it's not being reported. Fook me, if I were a woman I'd be up in arms and in fear of my life, albeit organising weekly protests and demonstrations to stop this sexual slaughter.

On the upside, I feel quite honoured to be one of the few remaining men in this country that isn't an evil, rapey sexual predator. Or maybe there are just a small, hardcore group of men in Ireland who are running around assaulting the whole female population. *Sigh* I just don't know anymore.

TP you seem to be taking this quite personally and seeing it as an attack on men. It's not. I don't see the majority of men being 'evil, rapey sexual predators', I am well aware that it is the minority.

A few posts back you were arguing that one persons word against another was not enough to convict anyone, but this is the thing about flashers - they will quite often wait until a person is alone and there is nobody else around. CCTV is great in urban areas, but I would lay odds that many of these pervs are quite sure to avoid such areas. From my experience, it has been parks and alleyways where these things happen - away from general public view. So the law is faced with the fact that it is just one persons word against another.

As for sexual assault - it's an emotive term I think and raises peoples hackles, but it is occuring all the time. Most people simply deal with it. I say people becuase it happens to men and women. I've had the lovely experience of being in pubs and clubs where 'tit cricket' was going on. Literally, a game where men grab total strangers breasts and other bits for points. That is sexual assault, but these guys see it as a funny joke - a game. I've also been in pubs where women have been grabbing guys bits too.

All too often it is tolerated, which is a shame, but I can understand why. A guy who rapes someone is given a short or even a suspended sentance - what happens to a guy or girl who gropes someone in the pub? Do you really see the Gardaí and DPP pursuing this. I don't. I don't agree with it, but I imagine the report would be taken and that would be the end of that.

LenaClaire

nedtheshed wrote: »

I didnt say that this didnt happen IRL or that any/many/most of the cases wernt genuine did I?

I just said that there is a market for clips like Liah mentioned,particularly in Japan so Id rather you didnt twist my words thanks.

Sorry if I took you up wrong. Your post seemed to imply that the video from Japan with the women who had been attacked was a paid video. I was just stating that this happens very frequently so we can never assume (bar the women joining in the fun) that it was something that the women consented to.

Cat Melodeon

28064212 wrote: »

Both instances of 'women' in that paragraph can be replaced with 'people' (or 'men') and be equally as valid. This isn't a gender issue, it's a justice system issue.

Agreed, as I said in the last line in my post.

I hope the bastard got what was coming to him

Thanks for the sentiment. As far as I'm concerned my attacker didn't get what was coming. He could have died screaming since but any thoughts of possible karma still leave me feeling a bit bereft of justice and wondering if he went on to have more 'success' with someone else.

Only 7% of reported cases of rape make it to a conviction. Some research suggests that as few as 1 in 40 actual rapes make it to a conviction. If the most serious sexual assaults fare so dismally in the justice system, what hope is there of convincing people to report lesser offences?

28064212

Leelaa22 wrote: »

i called the gards they took my statement the next day, told me they knew who the bad guys were, and that was the last of it. nothing happened.

EMF2010 wrote: »

All too often it is tolerated, which is a shame, but I can understand why. A guy who rapes someone is given a short or even a suspended sentance - what happens to a guy or girl who gropes someone in the pub? Do you really see the Gardaí and DPP pursuing this. I don't. I don't agree with it, but I imagine the report would be taken and that would be the end of that.

Probably true.... until the Gardaí are getting 15 reports a night from one club showing that it is a serious issue. And more importantly, that when the higher-ups and overseers of the Gardaí look at statistics and breakdowns of the crimes reported, sexual assault figures highly on the list.

LittleBook

Leelaa22 wrote: »

I said point and laugh too. For a few reasons.

Just to be clear ... I'm a point-and-laugher too! I'm not quoting people to put them on the spot and I hope you don't feel I'm asking you to defend why you would react this way.

It's just to show that we (nearly) all have the same method of dealing with this kind of thing and I'm wondering why.

ztoical

LittleBook wrote: »

Any suggestions ladies as to why reporting the incident seems/seemed to be the last thing on our minds (unless children may be at risk). It certainly never even dawned on me to do so, the pointing and laughing thing was/is considered the way to go but I don't know why.

I did ring the local police station and said it to them once further down the road [they weren't interested in case any one is wondering]...the question of the thread was how to respond and I assumed that refered to your first response when confronted. By reacting to flashers I feel I'm giving them that power/control kick that they want. The guy who flashed me when I was 15 was getting off on womens reactions [when I say women I mean women, he was on show to the whole street of both men and women but it was clear from his reaction it was only the womens reactions that he got off on] As I was young and shocked by the whole thing I ran and didn't call the police. 10 years later with the guy who flashed me twice it was clear he was not happy with my reaction [or lack of] the first time hence the mad dash to try again. I walked on took out my phone called the local station and said what had happened and was told 'it's most likely some young lad on a stag night, sure he means no harm'

28064212

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Only 7% of reported cases of rape make it to a conviction. Some research suggests that as few as 1 in 40 actual rapes make it to a conviction. If the most serious sexual assaults fare so dismally in the justice system, what hope is there of convincing people to report lesser offences?

So what's the alternative? Websites allowing anonymous claims to name-and-shame? 'Vigilante' justice?

The only way to increase pressure on the Gardaí to treat the cases seriously is to report it every time it happens, and to raise awareness among the general public. There's no point saying this goes on all the time when the Gardaí can point to their statistics showing there's only a handful of cases reported

ztoical

28064212 wrote: »

The only way to increase pressure on the Gardaí to treat the cases seriously is to report it every time it happens, and to raise awareness among the general public. There's no point saying this goes on all the time when the Gardaí can point to their statistics showing there's only a handful of cases reported

There needs to be improvements though within the gardai and the legal system when it comes to reporting and handling of sexual assualt and abuse cases. One of the main reasons people don't come forward to report these crimes is they fear how they will be treated. There also needs to be improvements to help those falsely accused as well.

One of the main ways of raising awareness within the general public is to focus on the groups most at risk for example women as Thaedydal said [in either this thread or the other thread on the rap case] to empower these groups and make them feel they have the power and are not victims however as can be seen on threads like this any attempts to discuss issues like this as 'womens issues' is attacked. Aiming to raise awareness among the general public does not work, the general public is just to wide so campaigns need to be focused, you could do several campigns on the one topic but each is geared towards the interests of that group. Awarness of STI's for example within the gay community I've found to be far greater then within the larger general public - is this because STI's effect gay people more? No [regardless of what some people would have you think] STI's effect everyone but if you want to get a message across to people you need to make it as focused on them as possible so they will pay attention and Gay rights groups have done a far better job of promoting awarness in their community. Why are the majority of dangerous driving adds focused on young males? Do we think all young male drivers are bad drivers? No but satistics show they are the group most at risk so awareness campaigns need to be more focused on them. Women are most at risk when it comes to sexual attacks so awarness needs to be raised among women to report these crimes but they need to feel like they can report them and that does mean making it a womens issue - it does not mean that men can't be victims of sexual attacks but simple satistics say women are at great risk. I bring this up as it's slightly worrying looking over several threads on this topic on this forum the number of people who are shot down for trying to 'hijack' the issue and turning it into a 'womens issue'

Leelaa22

LittleBook wrote: »

Just to be clear ... I'm a point-and-laugher too! I'm not quoting people to put them on the spot and I hope you don't feel I'm asking you to defend why you would react this way.

It's just to show that we (nearly) all have the same method of dealing with this kind of thing and I'm wondering why.

ah no I didnt feel like you were putting me on the spot, I just thought you wanted to know why I'm a pointer and laugher'er(I know thats not a word).