How to respond to a flasher

Leelaa22

Feeona wrote: »

This. And/or make a scene!

make the scene by pointing and laughing, get other people to join in.

Ickle Magoo

nedtheshed wrote: »

That they were there,being paid,to be ejaculated on.Basically a different type of porn star.The "" ment that for the purpose of the movies they were unsuspecting.The whole point of it is that the viewer/voyeur/buyer of these movies believes they are genuinely looking at women being filmed unbeknownst which is where the fetish is coming from.Anyway,this is probably veering towards S&S territory and has gone OT,apologies!

Oh, I get you, staged voyeurism. It's interesting, sorry for making you veer OT - what I know about japanese sexual culture would fit on the back of a postage stamp with room to spare.

Otis Driftwood

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Oh, I get you, staged voyeurism. It's interesting, sorry for making you veer OT - what I know about japanese sexual culture would fit on the back of a postage stamp with room to spare.

Id be more concerned that its making me look like a deviant!! :O But yes,I ment that what Liah mentioned could well have been staged given the fairly out there sub cultures that exist in Japan.

Cat Melodeon

My sister and I were flashed at and wanked at in a park. At first we walked away all shocked and giggly, but then I realised this guy was withing sight of a kiddies play area so I turned around walked to within 10m of him and took his photo (complete with penis on display) before he realised what I was doing. He zipped up and followed us for a bit, which was a bit scary but we jumped on a bus and lost him. I brought the photo to the local police station. They knew who he was, said they'd be taking it further. I didn't hear any more about it, have no idea what was done but I certainly wasn't called to be a witness or anything, although that might have been because I was foreign (this wasn't in Ireland). I'm still glad I did it.

TitoPuente

Giselle wrote: »

Anyone who thinks flashing is harmless - and I think we shouldn't be calling it something as innocuous as flashing - should bear in mind its an escalating behaviour.

I don't think anyone on here would suggest that flashing is harmless. Certainly what this guy is being accused of is no less than sexual assault IMO.

Nevyn

Yes ladies don't share your stories as certain male posters will tear them apart and be all concerned for the poor men you are accusing.

The Anti-room has a post up covering the video and is asking for women to share thier stories.

http://theantiroom.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/flash-mob/#comment-6459

Wolfe Tone

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes ladies don't share your stories as the male posters will tear them apart and be all concerned for the poor men you are accusing.

The Anti-room has a post up covering the video and is asking for women to share thier stories.

http://theantiroom.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/flash-mob/#comment-6459

.......

forget it

28064212

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes ladies don't share your stories as the male posters will tear them apart and be all concerned for the poor men you are accusing.

The Anti-room has a post up covering the video and is asking for women to share thier stories.

http://theantiroom.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/flash-mob/#comment-6459

Do you think Hollaback's stated policy of posting pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed a sexual assault is a good one?

I think sharing stories to raise awareness is great and providing support is great. Accusing someone specific of a criminal offence does not belong on a website, it belongs in the justice system. That's why boards.ie doesn't allow defamatory material

TitoPuente

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes ladies don't share your stories as the male posters will tear them apart and be all concerned for the poor men you are accusing.

To be honest, I completely agree with what you're saying for the most part. If someone sexually harasses you, such as taking their penis out and waving it at you or rubbing up against you, then making a scene and going to the authorities is definitely what you should do. Prosectute them to the full extent of the law, in a court of law.

However, if you're accusing someone of something outside of a court of law and without sufficient evidence then I wholeheartedly object to that. What's the point in 'sharing stories'? Go to the police, make a report and get the pervert arrested.

fillefatale

Was reading this article today about a flashing forum. The aim of some posters is to try and get pictures of their "victims".

Well done to that woman standing up for herself, I don't know how i'd react. I've sat beside a flasher, unbeknownst to myself and my friends were too scared to react. We felt ashamed, which we most certainly should not feel. The flasher has the issues, not us.

Nevyn

TitoPuente wrote: »

To be honest, I completely agree with what you're saying for the most part. If someone sexually harasses you, such as taking their penis out and waving it at you or rubbing up against you, then making a scene and going to the authorities is definitely what you should do. Prosectute them to the full extent of the law, in a court of law.

However, if you're accusing someone of something outside of a court of law and without sufficient evidence then I wholeheartedly object to that. What's the point in 'sharing stories'? Go to the police, make a report and get the pervert arrested.

Many women don't know that this happens to other women as often it's not spoken about and as a result they don't tell people close to them and get help and support to go to the garda.

Given how screwed up the law and justice system is and the pressure put on the Garda you could have nothing come from reporting it or it goes way down the list of priroties for a busy station and you may never hear back.

The more women talk about their experiences, share thier stories the more women may find the courage to stand up to such harassers and if enough women do it can make a difference.

It's called empowerment, sharing stories and supporting each other empowers people who have been through similar experiences to stand up for themselves.

TitoPuente

Thaedydal wrote: »

Many women don't know that this happens to other women as often it's not spoken about and as a result they don't tell people close to them and get help and support to go to the garda.

After reading this thread earlier, I asked my two flatmates (both females in their early 30's) had they ever been flashed by a sinister deviant (as opposed to some drunk guy on a stag night running through the town naked type of thing). Both said no, never. They're both lived their lives in a busy city. So it strikes me as not being *that* common. Although in your comment on that thread, you say you've lost count of the number of times it's happened to you, so I'm open to being wrong about that.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Given how screwed up the law and justice system is and the pressure put on the Garda you could have nothing come from reporting it or it goes way down the list of priroties for a busy station and you may never hear back.

That's a bit of a defeatest attitude in all fairness and, as someone who knows more than a few Gardaí, I'd have to say that they would generally take reports of such behaviour very seriously. As you say, this has happened to you more times than you can remember so, if the Gardaí are regularly ignoring you, try taking a solicitor with you one time. Watch them do their jobs then!

Thaedydal wrote: »

The more women talk about their experiences, share thier stories the more women may find the courage to stand up to such harassers and if enough women do it can make a difference.

It's called empowerment, sharing stories and supporting each other empowers people who have been through similar experiences to stand up for themselves.

Well what can I say? I'm amazed if this phenomenon is as endemic as you say it is that nothing is being done about it on a nationwide level. These sick perverts are obviously just going around sexually assaulting people on a daily basis with impunity.

Personally, I've only ever seen it a couple of times and it was reasonably innocuous (not as vulgar or sinister as a lot of what's been suggested here) and another couple of times it was women who were doing the flashing. Also personally, and with regard to my two friends (again, both female) who have read this thread, we're of the opinion that the assertion that this kind of behaviour is uttely endemic, that most women are flashed and molested regularly, is complete and utter hysteria. Then again, everyone's experiences are different I guess - maybe the three of us are just lucky.

echosound

TitoPuente wrote: »

Also personally, and with regard to my two friends (again, both female) who have read this thread, we're of the opinion that the assertion that this kind of behaviour is uttely endemic, that most women are flashed and molested regularly, is complete and utter hysteria. Then again, everyone's experiences are different I guess - maybe the three of us are just lucky.

Well I guess it just depends on who you know and how "lucky" they've been in life. Personally speaking, I've been flashed at before, more than once, one instance stands out in my mind as it was particularly unnerving for us - 2 girls, both age 12 on a quiet country road, confronted with 3 adult men, one of whom stood blocking our way while he waved his dick at us, leering.

I remember a very intense conversation with a group of friends while I was in secondary school, and out of the 7 of us, only 1 girl had gone through life thus far (we were aged 16-17) without being sexually "molested" in some way - ranging from just being groped, to full penetrative rape. None of the group of 6 had reported the fact to gardai, for varying reasons. That conversation was a real eye-opener, we were all a bit shell-shocked that it seemed such so commonplace.

However I wouldn't extrapolate out from that conversation and assume that 6 out of every 7 females are molested sexually. As you said, everyone's experience is different.

Oh and the best way to react to a flasher in my experience is to laugh and point and belittle them, and kick up a stink (so long as you are safe to do so, i.e. can make a safe getaway should they turn nasty). Good on that woman in the videoclip for her reaction.

Improbable

Thaedydal wrote: »

Many women don't know that this happens to other women as often it's not spoken about and as a result they don't tell people close to them and get help and support to go to the garda.

Given how screwed up the law and justice system is and the pressure put on the Garda you could have nothing come from reporting it or it goes way down the list of priroties for a busy station and you may never hear back.

The more women talk about their experiences, share thier stories the more women may find the courage to stand up to such harassers and if enough women do it can make a difference.

It's called empowerment, sharing stories and supporting each other empowers people who have been through similar experiences to stand up for themselves.

But just as you can get men who do this sort of thing (and it does happen), you do also get women who accuse people for no reason other than to get attention. The point of the legal system is to check the evidence.

If the guy actually did it, and there's a picture, or a video, or collaborating eyewitness testimony, or he confesses, then yeah, he's in the wrong. But even accusations of such an act can cause a great deal of damage even if the person is innocent. That's why I don't think it's acceptable to post a picture of say a guy just standing there, fully clothed and claiming that he did something. That's not evidence. If you film him or picture him in the act, or everybody who was there says that they saw the same thing, then obviously that's different.

As long as you don't post pictures of them doing nothing or name people, there's no problem with spreading the word that this goes on.

As for this particular video, personally I think he probably did it. It's really the shifty way he's holding the bag right in front of his groin but then again, maybe he got an erection and accidentally brushed up against her and he was embarrassed by it so he was trying to cover it up. But that's not my call to make.

The point that I'm really trying to get across is that even though it may look like the guy actually did it, there is no evidence in this particular video. If there was one with him actually flashing her and whatnot, that would be an entirely different story, but that's not the case here. All we have is a woman accusing a guy of something that he may or may not have done.

Nevyn

Improbable wrote: »

But just as you can get men who do this sort of thing (and it does happen), you do also get women who accuse people for no reason other than to get attention.

Again the myths of false accusation rear their head, yes there are some mentally unstable women who do such things, but the number are tiny and it does not excuse the number of men who do this sort of thing. You are not comparing like with like.

Improbable wrote: »

All we have is a woman accusing a guy of something that he may or may not have done.

So the word or testimony of a woman doesn't hold enough weight?
Well really what should be expect considering the origins of the word testimony comes from :rolleyes:

Norwayviking

Fishie wrote: »

It looks like this flasher got more than he bargained for when he pressed himself up against this woman with his penis out on a non-crowded New York subway (he is covering it with a bag in the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI5AH8YH714

He got what he deserved imo, trying to sexually intimidate people is not on and he deserved to be humiliated.

Has anyone here ever been flashed? How did you react? Thankfully I haven't, although there were a lot of flashings in some fields near my home when I was about eight... I didn't understand at the time why my mum didn't want me going there by myself. The guy was caught, thankfully

How about a good kick up the nuts.That usually drops most flashers:D

Improbable

Thaedydal wrote: »

Again the myths of false accusation rear their head, yes there are some mentally unstable women who do such things, but the number are tiny and it does not excuse the number of men who do this sort of thing. You are not comparing like with like.

Unequal ratios do not invalidate the argument. Read what I wrote, I actually think that the guy did it in that particular case. And sorry, but false accusation isn't a myth. You're treating it as if it was 100% irrevertible fact that the guy did what she says he did. That is simply not the case.

Thaedydal wrote: »

So the word or testimony of a woman doesn't hold enough weight?
Well really what should be expect considering the origins of the word testimony comes from :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with gender. If the genders were reversed and it was the guy who claimed that the woman who sexually violated him, I would still say the same thing, i.e. there is no proof in that video.

The only reason I specifically said "All we have is a woman accusing a guy of something that he may or may not have done." was to illustrate what we actually see in the video. Because that is all that we see. We don't see the guy performing the act. I apologise deeply for my use of gender pronouns.

As to that last bit about testimony, well, that's just a facetious argument as I don't see what the origin of the word testimony has to do with the issue at all...

TitoPuente

Thaedydal wrote: »

Again the myths of false accusation rear their head

The 'myths of false accusation'? I'm actually terrified by that remark to be perfectly honest. It's absolutely no different, IMO, to a man saying that rape was just a myth or that women 'deserve it'.

Thaedydal wrote: »

yes there are some mentally unstable women who do such things, but the number are tiny and it does not excuse the number of men who do this sort of thing. You are not comparing like with like.

I wouldn't say the number of unbalanced women who falsely accuse men is tiny at all. Although I don't think anyone has any statistics to back up their assertions.

Thaedydal wrote: »

So the word or testimony of a woman doesn't hold enough weight?

No, it certainly does not hold enough weight. I'm very sorry about that but we have a judicial system for a reason. You can't just go around accusing people of crimes without any evidence whatsoever and expect them to be jailed on your 'word'. That's an absolutely insane notion.

Essentially what you seem to be saying is that people who are accused of rape should be jailed without evidence. Absolutely bonkers!

Obviously rape is a very serious (and damaging and disgusting) crime and those guilty of it should be punished to the full extent of the law... or worse if possible. I just can't agree that anybody (man or woman) should be convicted of any crime without evidence, based solely on the word of the accuser. If we lived in a society like that, tens of thousands of innocent people (or more) would be in jail.

RedXIV

Anyone else think the guy looks like Jeff Goldblum?

28064212

Thaedydal wrote: »

Again the myths of false accusation rear their head, yes there are some mentally unstable women who do such things, but the number are tiny and it does not excuse the number of men who do this sort of thing. You are not comparing like with like.

You are not comparing like with like. No-one here has said someone who engages in sexual assualt should be excused because there may be false accusations out there. We are saying that someone who is accused of doing so is entitled to due process, just like every other person in the country

Thaedydal wrote: »

So the word or testimony of a woman doesn't hold enough weight?

The word or testimony of anyone doesn't hold enough weight on its own. If it did, we wouldn't need a justice system. Do you think the testimony of someone (of either gender) is enough for a conviction?

Did the woman in the original video go to the police? Did she file a charge against the person who assaulted her? Why not?

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well really what should be expect considering the origins of the word testimony comes from :rolleyes:

"It comes from the Indo-European roots *tre- meaning 'three' and *sta- meaning 'stand'. A witness was 'a third person standing by'. From that came the verb testificare 'to bear witness', which evolved into Middle English testify in the fourteenth century". - What's your point?

Do you think Hollaback's stated policy of posting pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed a sexual assault is a good one?
And more generally, do you think a website should be able to post pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed any crime?

fatmammycat

UPDATE on the flasher.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/23/tables-turned-on-alleged-nyc-subway-flasher/

Frankly having been flashed many times in the past, and know many women who have also been flashed I think it's terrific to see someone so vocal and unwillingly to pretend it didn't happen. Good for her. I wish I knew why men flash, I really do.

Fox McCloud

I'm just amazed at the huge volume of women on that site and here saying they have been exposed to this type of thing. I've heard a few stories from friends who have been flashed at or worse..
I always assumed it was an odd once off and the guy was just a crazy who didnt know what he was doing. But the sheer ammount of stories coming now makes it seem a lot more sinister..

As for the ethiics of the site, I think its fine really. If a guy has a problem with his photo or video up there he can ask for it to be removed I'm sure.. (Just give them your name so they have the info to report to the police after they take down the picture!)

LenaClaire

nedtheshed wrote: »

A bit OT but Id reckon those women wernt as unsuspecting as you think.Japan is a very strange country when it comes to sex,particularly voyeristic fetishes like you mentioned or things like guys walking around with mini cameras on their feet videoing up "unsuspecting" womens skirts.I read in Bizarre a few years ago that Japan is the leading producer of rape fetish movies.I also read in possibly the same issue that there was/is an escort agency that specialised in women dressing as schoolgirls and having the johns feel them up on crowded trains or buses.Strange people indeed.

Sorry, I have to call BS on this one. My family lived in Japan and my mother would routinly come home upset because strange men were rubbing on her, touching her etc. The trains in Japan are so crowded that at times you literally can not move your arms. This might cause issues for people so I am putting it in a spoiler

If you wear a skirt there are good odds you will get fingered intimately on the train, guys will rub their penis on you, etc and there is not much you can do about it

The day my parents company transfered them back home she was ecstatic.

This happens to women there all the time and they are not paid and they do not consent.

fatmammycat

Well I'm in my late thirties, Fox, and almost everyone of my female friends has been flashed at one point or another, more than once in some occasions. It's so common people make light of it, and use cutesy terminology like 'willy waggler' and so on, minimising a pretty foul act. When a woman does react like the woman in the video there is the usual contingent who try down play the act or lay the blame at her feet, she's 'uppity' a 'bitch' 'going over board'
( just some of the comments I've read where this video has been posted).
Fact is she has a right to travel unmolested, and a right to react angrily.
Also the woman in this video is NOT doing the videoing, if the man was innocent he could very easily move his bag to the right or left and show that she is completely wrong, that he stands there keeping his junk covered looking morto is a big of a clear signal that she is being far from 'uppity'.

ztoical

Been flashed twice, well actually three times if you count the guy who flashed me then ran away only to run around the back of some shops and flash me again 10 mins later both times with him I just rolled my eyes and walked on. Other guy was a little more upsetting as he had it fully out and was **** away at the bus stop and making really weird rutting noises and just turning towards anyone who walked by making sure they could see everything, I was only 15 so just ran away.

Did also see another guy who I'm not sure if it falls under flashing or not as he was in his car down near smithfield. It was 7pm and dark and he'd parked facing a wall with the lights turned on full so the light was reflecting off the wall into the car so you could see everything and he was sitting in the passenger seat **** away. I did a quick double take and just kept walking but around the corner I meet a mother with 3 kids in tow and told her to walk around the back of the car not the front, she gave me a weird look and must have ignored me cus I heard her yelling shortly after.

jujibee wrote: »

Sorry, I have to call BS on this one. My family lived in Japan and my mother would routinly come home upset because strange men were rubbing on her, touching her etc. The trains in Japan are so crowded that at times you literally can not move your arms. This might cause issues for people so I am putting it in a spoiler

If you wear a skirt there are good odds you will get fingered intimately on the train, guys will rub their penis on you, etc and there is not much you can do about it

The day my parents company transfered them back home she was ecstatic.

This happens to women there all the time and they are not paid and they do not consent.

+ 1 the issue of flashing and touching on the trains has become such an issue the Tokyo metro had to make women only sections of the trains which hasn't really improved the situation as guys seem to now think that if a woman isn't in the women only section [which can often happen as the trains are just so full] then she is fair game for them to touch.

Nevyn

fatmammycat wrote: »

UPDATE on the flasher.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/23/tables-turned-on-alleged-nyc-subway-flasher/

Frankly having been flashed many times in the past, and know many women who have also been flashed I think it's terrific to see someone so vocal and unwillingly to pretend it didn't happen. Good for her. I wish I knew why men flash, I really do.

They get a sexual thrill out of it, which is better then consensual sex.


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/23/tables-turned-on-alleged-nyc-subway-flasher/

Self-defense expert Gabrielle Rubin praised the rider for taking control.

“If she was by herself and the train was pretty empty, I wouldn’t have suggested that she do that same thing,” Rubin said.

Rubin’s advice is to play it safe and move away from the flasher if you’re alone. She encourages bystanders to speak up, too.

“The more people would’ve rallied around her would have make him think twice about ever doing this again,” Rubin said.

Speaking out really made a difference in this case. Police were able to quickly arrest 51-year-old Mario Valdivia of Queens. He’s been charged with forcible touching, public lewdness and sex abuse.

Glad to hear he's been charged.

Testimony comes from swearing on your testicles and women were kept out of the process of law for 100s of years due to being unable to do so.

TitoPuente

I think we can all agree that these acts are wrong, that's for sure. So why aren't more people jailed for it? I've only witnessed flashing a few times and it was reasonably tame. From what I can gather here though, nearly every single woman in Ireland has been sexually harassed and/or assaulted on numerous occasions. Why aren't more men doing time for it? Personally, I don't buy the whole "the Gardaí won't take me seriously" story either. If women were to go through the right channels, these crimes would be properly investigated and more and more men would be prosecuted and jailed.

So if it's so rampant, why aren't there numerous daily convictions?

coffee_cake

I was going to agree there's no evidence in the video, but I agree with the comments that it's suspicious he's still covering up and not dropping the bag with hands in the air.
In any case, glad to see the police arrested him on finding it was true

coffee_cake

TitoPuente wrote: »

I think we can all agree that these acts are wrong, that's for sure. So why aren't more people jailed for it? I've only witnessed flashing a few times and it was reasonably tame. From what I can gather here though, nearly every single woman in Ireland has been sexually harassed and/or assaulted on numerous occasions. Why aren't more men doing time for it? Personally, I don't buy the whole "the Gardaí won't take me seriously" story either. If women were to go through the right channels, these crimes would be properly investigated and more and more men would be prosecuted and jailed.

So if it's so rampant, why aren't there numerous daily convictions?

How many have the presence of mind to have evidence?
If you're flashed, you go and say "this happened but I have no proof", guy might say "no idea, she's crazy", no witnesses, nothing is gonna happen.

28064212

Thaedydal wrote: »

Glad to hear he's been charged.

Agreed, and this is where Hollaback should come in and provide support to her and put pressure on the authorities to ensure that due process happens and that it's not dismissed out of hand

Thaedydal wrote: »

Testimony comes from swearing on your testicles

No it doesn't

Thaedydal wrote: »

Women were kept out of the process of law for 100s of years due to being unable to do so.

No, they weren't. Women were never kept out of process of law because they couldn't swear on their testicles. They were kept out of the process because they were considered second-class citizens, but it's nothing to do with the etymology of the word, and even if the etymology was based on "testicle" (it's not), that doesn't have any relevance today.

Do you think Hollaback's stated policy of posting pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed a sexual assault is a good one?
And more generally, do you think a website should be able to post pictures of people who are anonymously claimed to have committed any crime?