University Fees

MySelf56

So much heated debate, great stuff. Genuinely there are people who are struggling now it self to pay the fees, at the same time there is sense of entitlement, arrogance from others.

There was again argument against students, If you could afford iPhone, iMac high end stuff, Wednesday partying why can't afford pay for your own future, education is always long-term sustainable investment. During boom years no student ever worked as part time or summer jobs. Anyway gone those days, its history.

Rumour has it, we can easily reclaim 1 sq km of land every year from sea by just recycling Buckfest and other beverages bottles/cans from Wednesday nights.

Coming to knowledge economy/smart economy it just words, nothing else here. Indian and Chinese are producing greater number of students for smart economy they will eat us for breakfast on any given day. We will never going to compete with them unless there is change. Just Google “Indian Institute of Technology”, “BITS” and “Chinese Universities” their alumni or network is so deep in silicon valley or big corporations across the globe.

Google corporate section has 3 IIT graduates from India, No body from here despite best uni's


Any who, How about this for long term solution in universities and IT's.

30% of students who are excelled in leaving cert gets “No Fee” seats, a scholarship for these students and should maintain certain level of grades to retain that scholarship in third-level.

55% of students will be in “Payment seats”.

10% of students from abroad (money pits).

5% of students from Irish-Diaspora(money pits)

This will get the best of students.


Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Institutes_of_Technology_alumni

DeepSleeper

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I'm not convinced by your descriptions of what is research, and judging by the number of academic economists currently flooding the airwaves, well opinions are two a penny. What are the critical success factors, how do we know resources are not being wasted on deadend topics and whilst viable projects struggle for resources? Why is this not more public? Hiding in labs/rooms with white coats might give the illusion that something meaningful, useful or economically beneficial might be achieved. But where are the hard core facts? Look at Ireland's position on international R+D investment. Do you know Ireland patent apps/capitata, do you know how many are granted? A crude form of measurement perhaps, output seems to lag behind our international counterparts when it comes to commercialisation. Proof of concept might mean something to an anorak, but it's the revenue that counts. Who are you codding with lecturers work 60hrs/week? Also if so why are they engaged in private grinds during term and during summer months on 'tour' in other countries? Don't sound like overworked?


Care to give a breakdown of the typical working week for a college lecturer? Keep it simple the top 5 time allocations will do.

I'll skip over your failure to understand what research is and your search for critical success factors (since I mentioned external peer review etc. etc.). Your suggestion that all research can be measured in terms of commercial success shows your failure to grasp the true nature of ground-breaking research across a variety of disciplines. In ten years of studying & working in universities, I've never heard of an academic giving private grinds, but if you have, I'd love to hear about it. I stand over my assertion that the vast majority of lecturing staff in universities work well in excess of 40 hrs per week.

So, to your search for a time allocation breakdown. Here are percentage figures from a survey of all academic staff across all disciplines in an Irish university in 2008/9 - measured at 3 points in the year to account for variation in time allocation between various terms (including summer months). 86% of the staff replied (i.e. over 500 people) and indicated their time allocation across 9 different categories - so here are the most important, in order of importance...

1st place with 31% of working time
1. Teaching (undergraduate)
Lectures, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision, other student contact (e.g. answering questions after lectures, by email, etc.), preparing material for lectures and tutorials, preparing materials for workshops and laboratory work, preparing exam papers and solutions, visiting externally placed students, supervising projects, marking and examining (including external examining), any other courses including commercial courses. Course committees, exam boards, university, college and/or faculty level teaching committees, interviewing students, admissions, writing references and interacting with employers, mentoring, personal tutor, schools liaison, open days, timetabling and preparing prospectuses, field work, office hours for students, module review and development, programme chair, teaching convenor and student liaison activities

2nd place with 15%
9. Other administration and management
Management and administration, University/ College/ Faculty/ School/ Department/Discipline committees (non-teaching), quality assurance contribution to the sector e.g. unpaid committees, IUQB review panels, other review panels, etc. Management and administration including finances, human resources, registry, library, computer services, facilities, etc.

3rd place with 13%

5. Research (no external sponsor but with an output)
Internally Funded or personal Research i.e. research that receives NO funding from external sponsors including speculative work to investigate potential projects. Undertaking research, writing research proposals and/or bids, project direction, research staff supervision, fieldwork, attendance at consortium meetings, laboratory and/or studio work, laboratory/facility development, preparation of research papers and books, production of research reports required under the terms of research contracts, actively participating in conferences, negotiating research contract terms. Supervision of Post Doc's and research staff other than PG students. Peer review output, Art & Design dissemination from artistic and cultural activities. Do not include percentage of time supporting PGR reported under 2 above. Research project and/or programme management and administration including work with the Finance and Human Resource Offices, etc.

4th place with 11%
4. Research (sponsored with output)
G, H, I: Undertaking research, writing research proposals and/or bids, project direction, research staff supervision, fieldwork, attendance at consortium meetings, laboratory and/or studio work, laboratory/facility development, preparation of research papers and books, production of research reports required under the terms of research contracts, actively participating in conferences, negotiating research contract terms. Supervision of Post Doc's and research staff other than PG students. Peer review output, Art & Design dissemination from artistic and cultural activities. Do not include percentage of time supporting PGR reported under 2 above. Research project and/or programme management and administration including work with the Finance and Human Resource Offices, etc.

5th place with 10%
6. Other research and scholarly activity
Maintenance and advancement of own personal knowledge and skills (e.g., reading literature, attending training courses or professional conferences, maintaining professional or clinical skills, acquiring new skills etc.), carrying out text book reviews, editing journals, refereeing or reviewing papers, reviewing research grant applications, conference organising, undertaking a PhD. etc., Outreach, reviewing grant proposals, editorial board duties, membership of state boards, contact with the media, public service and community engagement (e.g. representation on or providing advice and support to professional bodies e.g. Institutes, etc, heritage bodies, state and semi-state bodies, public promotion of matters to the general public, newspaper articles, interviews, etc.). Managing and administering the activities listed above.

Joint 6th place with 9%
2. Teaching (postgraduate taught)
Teaching to groups which are predominantly Taught Postgraduate students. Lectures, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision, other student contact (e.g. answering questions after lectures, by email, etc.), preparing material for lectures and tutorials, preparing materials for workshops and laboratory work, preparing exam papers and solutions, visiting externally placed students, supervising projects, marking and examining (including external examining), any other courses including commercial courses. Course committees, exam boards, university, college and/or faculty level teaching committees, interviewing students, admissions, writing references and interacting with employers, mentoring, personal tutor, schools liaison, open days, timetabling and preparing prospectuses, field work, office hours for students, module review and development, programme chair, teaching convenor and student liaison activities

Joint 6th place with 9%
3. Teaching (postgraduate research)
Teaching to groups which are predominantly postgraduate Research students. Includes all time spent supervising and supporting PGR students, during their studies, both directly and indirectly. Direct assistance with and supervision of PhD and Masters research degree dissertations, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision. Completing and validating university postgraduate application forms and providing any associated supporting documentation. Reviewing postgraduate student applications and completing university postgraduate progression and review forms. Participating in postgraduate progression and award boards, postgraduate research student marketing and recruitment activities. Providing supporting documents for student visa applications. Completing financial forms for research student’s fees, stipends, forms for thesis submission, examination and award and supervisor reports for student funding agencies (esp. IRCSET and IRCHSS). Research student examinations. Writing references and interacting with employers. Administrative activities associated with student visits to national and international research laboratories, workshops, conferences, etc.

Trog

I have 2 points:

1. I don't have the wherewithal to read 23 pages of this, but has anyone brought up the fact that the Leaving Cert is utterly useless as a means of:
Helping students find the right college course, and
Allocating places in college courses to students in any kind of appropriate way?

This is relevant because if we reformed the Leaving cert system to include a broader range of subjects, and provide a fairer system of adjudication, students would be better at choosing the right course, and the right students would get into those courses. We'd severely reduce the level of drop outs and therefore the amount of money wasted on drop outs.

2. There are very few jobs now. Introducing fees would send a MUCH higher amount of people into dole offices, and over 4 years the government would spend roughly the same amount of money on the same people, without providing them with a qualification. If they didn't go on the dole, they'd emigrate, and possibly never come back. We'd end up with a smaller, less qualified workforce when the country finally does start generating more jobs.

No to fees plees.

SarahBeep!

The only way to free people from poverty is with education. Why only make it attainable to the rich?

Merzbow

0

Trog wrote: »

Introducing fees would send a MUCH higher amount of people into dole offices

It would do no such thing, even people with degrees now are finding it quite difficult to gain employment. Producing less or more college graduates won't solve the unemployment crisis.

Reducing costs (rent, electricity, wages) to encourage FDI in Ireland is the only way to solve that. Companies like Dell, Bank of Scotland, Pfizer, SR Technics, Intel, GSK, etc aren't pulling out of Ireland because of a lack of graduates, they are pulling out because it's just too damn expensive to conduct business in Ireland.

Trog

Merzbow wrote: »

0

It would do no such thing, even people with degrees now are finding it quite difficult to gain employment. Producing less or more college graduates won't solve the unemployment crisis.

Reducing costs (rent, electricity, wages) to encourage FDI in Ireland is the only way to solve that. Companies like Dell, Bank of Scotland, Pfizer, SR Technics, Intel, GSK, etc aren't pulling out of Ireland because of a lack of graduates, they are pulling out because it's just too damn expensive to conduct business in Ireland.

Fair point, and I agree with your second paragraph categorically, but I think I expressed myself wrong. I don't mean sending people to college solves unemployment, nor do I mean (even though I said it), that ultimately less people end up unemployed. I DO mean this:

Take the current batch of 1st years in college. If they had to pay fees, a high number of them wouldn't have gone to college at all. Considering there's very few jobs, most of them would end up on the dole, and the government would end up spending at least a similar amount of money on them over the year anyway.
So, instead of paying the money on welfare, we put them in college for a similar amount of money per year, (I did some maths and it was actually less, but my maths is bad and factoring in grants it's probably a bit higher, but not substantially so) and at least they get a degree. Now, this doesn't solve the problem, but it at least keeps the population qualified and in the country, so eventually when jobs do start coming about, we have a highly qualified workforce. I'm not suggesting that there'll be all high-qualification jobs, but it's preferable to have more over-qualified people than under-qualified.

I agree that free fees doesn't solve our problems, but introducing fees does more damage than not doing so, and for little actual cash savings if any.

HavingCrack

Merzbow wrote: »

Reducing costs (rent, electricity, wages) to encourage FDI in Ireland is the only way to solve that. Companies like Dell, Bank of Scotland, Pfizer, SR Technics, Intel, GSK, etc aren't pulling out of Ireland because of a lack of graduates, they are pulling out because it's just too damn expensive to conduct business in Ireland.

Relying solely on FDI investment isn't a great way to kickstart an economy. There's far too little indigenous industry and entrepreneurship in Ireland which I think is where we really need to shape up. If we keep relying on foreign companies to provide employment we'll never get anywhere.

An example would be the fishing industry. We should have an enormous fishing industry similar to Denmark's who have the largest fleet in Europe I think. This is something we could be European leaders in. This obsession with a 'hi-tech' economy based on FDI's is the only way we can grow has to be displaced as the lie it is.

ILA

whadabouchasir wrote: »

the thing is though that the Government are just going to reduce the amount that they give to the uni's and the difference will be made up by the increase in Registration fees.The government are doing this not to improve the 3rd level sector,rather to reduce the budget deficit.

Now that's what really pisses me off about an increase in the fees. The rumoured €1,000 increase is simply dead money to help pay for the mess they and their cronies created. Even after you and I complete college their lesser cronies will be the ones who get all the best job. Nothing in terms of facilities or technology in our colleges will be improved by it.

Its just like the cuts to the dental cover and other health cuts. People are paying the same/more PRSI but they're simply going to provide less for it.

edgecutter

Get a grip everyone. Fees have to be introduced. Already there are plans to cut teachers and other jobs, but students should be immune. Get real. In Britain fees will be 6-9K, yet are students refuse to see that.

I went to the UK to do my degree and I paid my through it. Both my parents could have supported me, but they didn't. How did I fund my course? I worked part time for every single hour I could get.

Education like is like buying a product. If you want it enough get the money and buy it.

tatabubbly

MySelf56 wrote: »

There was again argument against students, If you could afford iPhone, iMac high end stuff, Wednesday partying why can't afford pay for your own future, education is always long-term sustainable investment. During boom years no student ever worked as part time or summer jobs. Anyway gone those days, its history.

What a twisted view of college students you have!!!!

I lived in a house with 5 girls. None of us had money. EVER. That registration fee and rent meant money for travel, food, bills was low.
I don't think i ever managed to buy new clothes/ any other extras unless it was money from my mum as a gift. Living off 20e a week was rough at times

I personally had to work through college to pay for it, i don't think free fees should be scrapped. If you went through it thinking, god i've another 10 grand to pay when i finish this, you'd get alot of people dropping out of college who couldn't afford it in the first place.

ILA

edgecutter wrote: »

Education like is like buying a product. If you want it enough get the money and buy it.

No its not, and its essential that it's not turned into that.

jimthemental

My alma mater UL has probably doubled in size over the last 4-5 years with colossal capital expenditure. I have to say that students were forced to cough up a lot of this through parking etc. while a fair amount came from philanthropist Chuck Feeney.

Money was put into new lecture buildings which were not yet needed for maybe another 5-6 years down the line when capacity demanded. A fancy bridge and new presidents house were built to be flash, and at massive cost.

An extended or second library was the most needed facility while I was there, often I had to wait 30 mins to log onto a computer and even longer to get study desk space.
For these reasons I think that fees could be increased when the colleges can prove to us that they are going to be spent properly otherwise continue as is and maybe cut lecturer salaries if they are not up to the teaching standard, which is something I have major problems with.

hotmail.com

Hearing that the protests have got nasty at Leinster House!?

hotmail.com

A number of protestors have occupied the Department of Finance on Merrion Row and several hundred students are staging sit-down protest outside the building.

It follows a student protest in Dublin city centre against plans to increase registration fees by third level students has ended.

There is a large a garda presence outside blocking the entrance to the Department.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/education.html

Trog

edgecutter wrote: »

Get a grip everyone. Fees have to be introduced. Already there are plans to cut teachers and other jobs, but students should be immune. Get real. In Britain fees will be 6-9K, yet are students refuse to see that.

I went to the UK to do my degree and I paid my through it. Both my parents could have supported me, but they didn't. How did I fund my course? I worked part time for every single hour I could get.

Education like is like buying a product. If you want it enough get the money and buy it.

1. We won't save any real money by introducing fees.

2. Saying 'fees work in Britain' does not imply that fees will work in Ireland. An economy with a population of 60 million does not compare fairly to an economy with 6 million. Britain can afford not to provide free third level education because it has a big enough economy to grow on its own.
We need education to ultimately:
Boost growth in the economy when growth does finally come (education has been shown to boost growth in small economies), and
increase the average income when we finally start generating jobs.

There are 3 things every small country government needs to look after (and by this I mean stabilise and reform if necessary) when the chips are down, and above everything else: Healthcare, Education, and Social Welfare. Everything else should be cut to the bones first. If our debt overwhelms us after that, then we have a stable infrastructure to rebuild. If we don't look after those 3 things, then even if we get out of debt, the country will be (is) in pieces.

melekalikimaka

Trog wrote: »

There are 3 things every small country government needs to look after (and by this I mean stabilise and reform if necessary) when the chips are down, and above everything else: Healthcare, Education, and Social Welfare. Everything else should be cut to the bones first. If our debt overwhelms us after that, then we have a stable infrastructure to rebuild. If we don't look after those 3 things, then even if we get out of debt, the country will be (is) in pieces.

if fees are introduced... education isnt going to disappear... its merely gonna revert to its original state, you pay for it... like every other country. government will implement a loan system, which will hopefully weed out the wasters too, resulting in a higher standard of education for everyone... and more money for the government to fund healthcare and support the disadvantaged

Sonnenblumen

melekalikimaka wrote: »

if fees are introduced... education isnt going to disappear... its merely gonna revert to its original state, you pay for it... like every other country. government will implement a loan system, which will hopefully weed out the wasters too, resulting in a higher standard of education for everyone... and more money for the government to fund healthcare and support the disadvantaged

I think this is nonsense which simply accelerates an already unacceptable two tier society. If this was the way forward, why hasn't the same approach worked in healthcare? Everyone is paying more but yet the demand/access to services continues to suffer. This approach is privatisation of education by the backdoor. That's bad and regressive, education should not be a privilege. As we can see healthcare has become a privilege for VHI etc members, non-privately insured can join the suffering queues.

Increasing fees is a crude and simplistic response to meeting rising costs, the latter is the problem and more focus is required.

Higher fees = more opportunities for new 'private' entrants to poach students, and the downward spiral will continue.

melekalikimaka

melekalikimaka wrote: »

if fees are introduced... education isnt going to disappear... its merely gonna revert to its original state, you pay for it... like every other country.

Plenty of other country's have free 3rd level education.

melekalikimaka

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

Plenty of other country's have free 3rd level education.

name 10

Trog

melekalikimaka wrote: »

if fees are introduced... education isnt going to disappear... its merely gonna revert to its original state, you pay for it... like every other country. government will implement a loan system, which will hopefully weed out the wasters too, resulting in a higher standard of education for everyone... and more money for the government to fund healthcare and support the disadvantaged

Yes, you pay for it. So many people can't afford it. So we have a LOT more people less qualified. So much more people in the workforce when the economy restarts are on lower incomes. So the government generates less tax revenue, and less big-money business. On top of this, we have to pay for these people's social welfare until the economy starts again anyway, so we're not saving any money at all.

melekalikimaka

Trog wrote: »

Yes, you pay for it. So many people can't afford it.

What part of the term government loans don't you understand, its been repeated over and over here, a loan like in the uk or most other countries, to cover fees and expenses incurred during the degree, paid back when one is earning... a perfectly fair system where no family is out of pocket, and the government gets the money back over time, weed out freeloaders too

Sonnenblumen

DeepSleeper wrote: »

I'll skip over your failure to understand what research is and your search for critical success factors (since I mentioned external peer review etc. etc.). Your suggestion that all research can be measured in terms of commercial success shows your failure to grasp the true nature of ground-breaking research across a variety of disciplines. In ten years of studying & working in universities, I've never heard of an academic giving private grinds, but if you have, I'd love to hear about it. I stand over my assertion that the vast majority of lecturing staff in universities work well in excess of 40 hrs per week.

So, to your search for a time allocation breakdown. Here are percentage figures from a survey of all academic staff across all disciplines in an Irish university in 2008/9 - measured at 3 points in the year to account for variation in time allocation between various terms (including summer months). 86% of the staff replied (i.e. over 500 people) and indicated their time allocation across 9 different categories - so here are the most important, in order of importance...

1st place with 31% of working time
1. Teaching (undergraduate)
Lectures, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision, other student contact (e.g. answering questions after lectures, by email, etc.), preparing material for lectures and tutorials, preparing materials for workshops and laboratory work, preparing exam papers and solutions, visiting externally placed students, supervising projects, marking and examining (including external examining), any other courses including commercial courses. Course committees, exam boards, university, college and/or faculty level teaching committees, interviewing students, admissions, writing references and interacting with employers, mentoring, personal tutor, schools liaison, open days, timetabling and preparing prospectuses, field work, office hours for students, module review and development, programme chair, teaching convenor and student liaison activities

2nd place with 15%
9. Other administration and management
Management and administration, University/ College/ Faculty/ School/ Department/Discipline committees (non-teaching), quality assurance contribution to the sector e.g. unpaid committees, IUQB review panels, other review panels, etc. Management and administration including finances, human resources, registry, library, computer services, facilities, etc.

3rd place with 13%

5. Research (no external sponsor but with an output)
Internally Funded or personal Research i.e. research that receives NO funding from external sponsors including speculative work to investigate potential projects. Undertaking research, writing research proposals and/or bids, project direction, research staff supervision, fieldwork, attendance at consortium meetings, laboratory and/or studio work, laboratory/facility development, preparation of research papers and books, production of research reports required under the terms of research contracts, actively participating in conferences, negotiating research contract terms. Supervision of Post Doc's and research staff other than PG students. Peer review output, Art & Design dissemination from artistic and cultural activities. Do not include percentage of time supporting PGR reported under 2 above. Research project and/or programme management and administration including work with the Finance and Human Resource Offices, etc.

4th place with 11%
4. Research (sponsored with output)
G, H, I: Undertaking research, writing research proposals and/or bids, project direction, research staff supervision, fieldwork, attendance at consortium meetings, laboratory and/or studio work, laboratory/facility development, preparation of research papers and books, production of research reports required under the terms of research contracts, actively participating in conferences, negotiating research contract terms. Supervision of Post Doc's and research staff other than PG students. Peer review output, Art & Design dissemination from artistic and cultural activities. Do not include percentage of time supporting PGR reported under 2 above. Research project and/or programme management and administration including work with the Finance and Human Resource Offices, etc.

5th place with 10%
6. Other research and scholarly activity
Maintenance and advancement of own personal knowledge and skills (e.g., reading literature, attending training courses or professional conferences, maintaining professional or clinical skills, acquiring new skills etc.), carrying out text book reviews, editing journals, refereeing or reviewing papers, reviewing research grant applications, conference organising, undertaking a PhD. etc., Outreach, reviewing grant proposals, editorial board duties, membership of state boards, contact with the media, public service and community engagement (e.g. representation on or providing advice and support to professional bodies e.g. Institutes, etc, heritage bodies, state and semi-state bodies, public promotion of matters to the general public, newspaper articles, interviews, etc.). Managing and administering the activities listed above.

Joint 6th place with 9%
2. Teaching (postgraduate taught)
Teaching to groups which are predominantly Taught Postgraduate students. Lectures, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision, other student contact (e.g. answering questions after lectures, by email, etc.), preparing material for lectures and tutorials, preparing materials for workshops and laboratory work, preparing exam papers and solutions, visiting externally placed students, supervising projects, marking and examining (including external examining), any other courses including commercial courses. Course committees, exam boards, university, college and/or faculty level teaching committees, interviewing students, admissions, writing references and interacting with employers, mentoring, personal tutor, schools liaison, open days, timetabling and preparing prospectuses, field work, office hours for students, module review and development, programme chair, teaching convenor and student liaison activities

Joint 6th place with 9%
3. Teaching (postgraduate research)
Teaching to groups which are predominantly postgraduate Research students. Includes all time spent supervising and supporting PGR students, during their studies, both directly and indirectly. Direct assistance with and supervision of PhD and Masters research degree dissertations, tutorials, laboratory and/or workshop supervision. Completing and validating university postgraduate application forms and providing any associated supporting documentation. Reviewing postgraduate student applications and completing university postgraduate progression and review forms. Participating in postgraduate progression and award boards, postgraduate research student marketing and recruitment activities. Providing supporting documents for student visa applications. Completing financial forms for research student’s fees, stipends, forms for thesis submission, examination and award and supervisor reports for student funding agencies (esp. IRCSET and IRCHSS). Research student examinations. Writing references and interacting with employers. Administrative activities associated with student visits to national and international research laboratories, workshops, conferences, etc.

I appreciate your enormous effort for the above, does it not seem a bit overly defensive? Based on the above, it would appear that Lecturers are probably the most productive human being on the planet. A claim I have never come across. BTW don't be so patronising sunshine, I was also engaged in research, and not to burst your bubble, not al;l research is groundbreaking. A lot is probably ball breaking but that's different and peer reviews are just that. There are many reasons (or 'worthy causes') for undertaking research . The big one and potentially lucrative reason is applying research that can involve substantive changes/improvements for economic gain. If you've never made money you'll probably not understand/agree. In the areas of science/engineering, invention is the grail, I'm not too bothered about the wire pulling academic research that just seems to keep others employed on campus as paid glorified perennial students.

BTW I would be curious as to the source of the breakdown.

Killer Pigeon

I stand by these comments I made on another forum about the idiot rioting at the end of the protest.

To be quite honest, I was abhorred by the sight of rioting at the end of the protest and what's more that members of political youth organisations, like Ógra Sinn Féin and the Socialist Workers party, were involved. I really hope that members of supposedly more civilised left political organisations, like Labour Youth, weren't involved in those moronic acts. If they were than all I can say is that they're making the left and liberals in general out to be nothing more than hooligans.

If you look at the flags in the background of the TV reports, it wouldn't come as a shock to assume that hard line socialists just came out on the day to cause trouble and had no real interest in the subject of the protest. I wouldn't be surprised if the government decided to reintroduce third level fees just for the sake of getting those knackers out of college.

DeepSleeper

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I appreciate your enormous effort for the above, does it not seem a bit overly defensive? Based on the above, it would appear that Lecturers are probably the most productive human being on the planet. A claim I have never come across. BTW don't be so patronising sunshine, I was also engaged in research, and not to burst your bubble, not al;l research is groundbreaking. A lot is probably ball breaking but that's different and peer reviews are just that. There are many reasons (or 'worthy causes') for undertaking research . The big one and potentially lucrative reason is applying research that can involve substantive changes/improvements for economic gain. If you've never made money you'll probably not understand/agree. In the areas of science/engineering, invention is the grail, I'm not too bothered about the wire pulling academic research that just seems to keep others employed on campus as paid glorified perennial students.

BTW I would be curious as to the source of the breakdown.

Copying and pasting from the NUIG website is hardly an 'enormous effort', but then you were the first to bring 'patronising' in this...

'wire pulling academic research' says it all really - worse fool me for trying to debate with a philistine - I've met enough in my time, so I'm outta here...

Adriatic

I got lots of photos and video, in the process of sorting them and editing; was at the march and the riot; I guess I should separate them too, the latter being NSFW.

Ave Sodalis

melekalikimaka wrote: »

if fees are introduced... education isnt going to disappear... its merely gonna revert to its original state, you pay for it... like every other country. government will implement a loan system, which will hopefully weed out the wasters too, resulting in a higher standard of education for everyone... and more money for the government to fund healthcare and support the disadvantaged

I'm sorry but I think that's rubbish!

True education isn't going to disappear but it will be dramatically reduced and what the country needs right now if for employment to go up. How do we raise employment? Have an education...

A loan system? Great! Except if you can't afford college fees, the chances are, you can't afford to pay back the loan with the added interest.

Wasters? How would this ''weed out the waster"?? If you cannot afford to go to college, how does this make you a waster? If anything, it is the ones who can't afford it, that needs it most. It will by no means result in a higher standard of education. It will make the rich richer and the poor poorer as the rich will afford college and get high paid jobs. There will still be wasters, just richer ones.

The government will use it in another bank bail-out or to pay back this ridiculous dept that shouldn't of happened in the first time. Surely, if people get a job and pay tax, that's enough?

melekalikimaka

sup_dude wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think that's rubbish!

True education isn't going to disappear but it will be dramatically reduced and what the country needs right now if for employment to go up. How do we raise employment? Have an education...

we raise employment with business investment, we have enough skilled workers, not enough companies.

sup_dude wrote: »

A loan system? Great! Except if you can't afford college fees, the chances are, you can't afford to pay back the loan with the added interest.

look up how it works in other countries

sup_dude wrote: »

Wasters? How would this ''weed out the waster"?? If you cannot afford to go to college, how does this make you a waster? If anything, it is the ones who can't afford it, that needs it most. It will by no means result in a higher standard of education. It will make the rich richer and the poor poorer as the rich will afford college and get high paid jobs. There will still be wasters, just richer ones.

as i said afford is not an issue here in my arguement, the loans cover that. i mean after one year or two years we get lazy drop outs, in the loan system they still have to pay, current system, its a f you to the tax payer and a nice ride on the dole train

sup_dude wrote: »

The government will use it in another bank bail-out or to pay back this ridiculous dept that shouldn't of happened in the first time. Surely, if people get a job and pay tax, that's enough?

surely, its not, look at the figures.

the banks are an issue that needs to be tackled, if we cant keep them propped up we are gonna be in alot worse state, i dont think its something to scoff at

Ave Sodalis

melekalikimaka wrote: »

we raise employment with business investment, we have enough skilled workers, not enough companies.



look up how it works in other countries


as i said afford is not an issue here in my arguement, the loans cover that. i mean after one year or two years we get lazy drop outs, in the loan system they still have to pay, current system, its a f you to the tax payer and a nice ride on the dole train



surely, its not, look at the figures.

the banks are an issue that needs to be tackled, if we cant keep them propped up we are gonna be in alot worse state, i dont think its something to scoff at

And what exactly are the college applicatant going to do? Oh, I'm sorry you can't afford to go to college but we have enough people to do your job so it's alright. And when the economy picks up...who cares if you don't have an education then.

I know how it works in other countries. It doesn't mean it'll work here. There are different circumstances.

Afford is most definitaly an issue here. I, for one, will not be able to afford to go to college after my Leaving Cert if these fees come in. To be qualified in my choosen career path, I need to go to college twice. Certainly, I can't pay back the loans. Do you really think it's wasters who drop out? Maybe they fail and can't afford to repeat? Maybe they discover that it was not the course for them?

By enough, I was refering to the tax payers. They will now have to pay course fees and tax.
But we can't keep the banks propped up. That's why we are borrowing from the bigger banks.

melekalikimaka

sup_dude wrote: »

Afford is most definitaly an issue here. I, for one, will not be able to afford to go to college after my Leaving Cert if these fees come in. To be qualified in my choosen career path, I need to go to college twice. Certainly, I can't pay back the loans. Do you really think it's wasters who drop out? Maybe they fail and can't afford to repeat? Maybe they discover that it was not the course for them?

you do know this loan does not require repayments until you are in full time employment AFTER you degree is finished? what is your chosen career that doesnt allow you to do this? look it up in other countries, payments are TINY

Altheus

In light of the protests, and Redmond's comment:

“I think we’re looking at a horrendous situation where parents and families ...are going to have to decide which, if any, of their children can go to college in future.”

I took the opportunity to do a little maths:

Currently full maintenance grant and fees are awarded to a household of less than 4 children on e41,110.

At 41k per year, a two parent, one income, one child household earns €681.37 per week,.

At 51k per year, 50% fees and grant are awarded, and the household earns €795.47 per week plus benefit.

Now, that's surely the highest risk area - which the government caters for.

Let's say you have two income earners on the average industrial wage with a household income of €65000 per year combined.

That means you have an income of €1102.09 per week.

So how to we stem this aortic rupture?

How about taking out loans against our future. €18.07 a week, or €4336.13 in total. That's a five year loan from Ulster Bank at current rates.

That's just over 2 hours work at minimum wage, or about 1 and half at the average industrial wage.