University Fees

prinz · 02-11-2010 5:32pm

JonB wrote: »

So by that logic we should scrap it due to the wasters who do nothing? What about the people that do actually try. By your logic there we might aswell scrap the dole, as there are people on the dole who won't even try for a job.

The fees being touted don't even come close to covering the actual cost of the education. Asking students to make a contribution would be more akin to cutting the dole... and there are plenty of reasons to make a cut to the dole.

melekalikimaka · 02-11-2010 5:34pm

JonB wrote: »

So by that logic we should scrap it due to the wasters who do nothing? What about the people that do actually try. By your logic there we might aswell scrap the dole, as there are people on the dole who won't even try for a job.

did you read ANYTHING else I have posted...

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 5:36pm

prinz wrote: »

The fees being touted don't even come close to covering the actual cost of the education. Asking students to make a contribution would be more akin to cutting the dole.

Students already make a contribution, €1500/year. For the people who could afford increased fees of €2500, it could actually prove cheaper to study in the UK. I know it would definitely be cheaper for me to study what I did in the UK if fees here are increased to €2500. Might as well stay in the UK after graduation (where you've set up a life for yourself) and contribute to their economy then.

prinz · 02-11-2010 5:37pm

flash1080 wrote: »

Students already make a contribution. For the people who could afford increased fees of €2500, it could actually prove cheaper to study in the UK. I know it would definitely be cheaper for me to study what I did in the UK if fees here are increased to €2500.

Great. Enjoy it over there.

Sonnenblumen · 02-11-2010 5:37pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Just off the top of my head, Havok are a company that started out as a research project and is now used in lots of games and films. I remember seeing something about a group of college students in galway did some important research that could help make better rocket fuel in the future. There are probably lots more that I don't know of.

Edit: I forgot about John Breslin (Cloud here on boards) in Galway doing work on the symantic web.

I realise of course that there are ouputs/examples, but I think despite Gov repeated policy about developing smart economies, and EI pumping millions annually into funded research, no everyone is engaged in commercially viable research. Nature of the beast, not all succeed? The debate is about fee's, someone in a white coat has a feather up the arse about research. The problem is incessant increases in college fees. We have a very good parallel, the Gov has pumped billions into the State's Health system, but yet most would agree it is dysfunctional or even worse. The same is happening with education, most of the investment goes on pay. It's another gravy train for over paid inflated egos and the students and ultimately the state will suffer.

There are other alternatives to meeting rising costs than simply raising fees? Balls and management required, eg UCD fiasco.

BTW is Havok now foreign owned?

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 5:41pm

prinz wrote: »

Great. Enjoy it over there.

People will enjoy it over there in the UK if their education is cheaper.

prinz · 02-11-2010 5:44pm

flash1080 wrote: »

People will enjoy it over there in the UK if their education is cheaper.

.... yep. You could say the same about anything that's cheaper anywhere. As for contributing already, lot's of people were contributing already, didn't stop the Income Levy's coming in. Don't like paying it, but again, it's necessary.

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 5:50pm

prinz wrote: »

.... yep. You could say the same about anything that's cheaper anywhere. As for contributing already, lot's of people were contributing already, didn't stop the Income Levy's coming in. Don't like paying it, but again, it's necessary.

The income levy is a balls but necessary. If college fees have to be increased then it shouldn't be to a level (like €2500) where it is cheaper to study in the UK.

prinz · 02-11-2010 5:55pm

flash1080 wrote: »

The income levy is a balls but necessary. If college fees have to be increased then it shouldn't be to a level (like €2500) where it is cheaper to study in the UK.

Why stop at the UK? Why not France? India? Papua New Guinea? Education is primarily a domestic market, we don't need to market ourselves cheaper than the UK. Why not limit food to where it's cheaper than the UK? Or rents? Or anything else for that matter?

TheRiddler · 02-11-2010 5:55pm

Why the hell can it not be means tested. Is it fair that all students get to go to college for free no, but is it fair that a family on the dole who are borderline on the grant levels pay as much as students who's parents earn <€100,000 a year?

Something like this;

<€25,000 = pay €1,500
<€50,000 = pay €3,000
<€75,000 = pay €5,000

>€100,000 = full fees

melekalikimaka · 02-11-2010 5:56pm

TheRiddler wrote: »

Something like this;

<€25,000 = pay €1,500
<€50,000 = pay €3,000
<€75,000 = pay €5,000

>€100,000 = full fees

why should people who earn more money and pay more taxes be forced to pay more for the same education for their children

02-11-2010 5:59pm

TheRiddler wrote: »

Why the hell can it not be means tested. Is it fair that all students get to go to college for free no, but is it fair that a family on the dole who are borderline on the grant levels pay as much as students who's parents earn <€100,000 a year?

Something like this;

<€25,000 = pay €1,500
<€50,000 = pay €3,000
<€75,000 = pay €5,000

>€100,000 = full fees

I still dont understand why people think its fair to punish people for doing well in life by having to pay 1000's more in situations like this. Whats the point in earning more if its nearly all taken off you. Also as pointed out above they pay much more in tax also.

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 6:00pm

prinz wrote: »

Why stop at the UK? Why not France? India? Papua New Guinea? Education is primarily a domestic market, we don't need to market ourselves cheaper than the UK. Why not limit food to where it's cheaper than the UK? Or rents? Or anything else for that matter?

Because the UK is our closest neighbour and it is easy for Irish people to go and study there.

TheRiddler · 02-11-2010 6:03pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

why should people who earn more money and pay more taxes be forced to pay more for the same education for their children

In this climate cuts have to be made and somebody is always going to lose out. You can't deny students education because their parents don't have great jobs or got cut back etc. Is it fair that wealthy people pay more, probably not, but they can afford to take a hit like that and still lead a comfortable lifestyle, as opposed to people who are already scrapping by as it is. The majority of students struggle to pay as it is, if they can't get third level education where will the country be in 25 years. The best thing for the country is to try and have as many educated people as possible.

TheRiddler · 02-11-2010 6:05pm

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

I still dont understand why people think its fair to punish people for doing well in life by having to pay 1000's more in situations like this. Whats the point in earning more if its nearly all taken off you. Also as pointed out above they pay much more in tax also.

€1,500 from someone on the dole is a lot more of a struggle then €7,000 from high earners

prinz · 02-11-2010 6:05pm

flash1080 wrote: »

Because the UK is our closest neighbour and it is easy for Irish people to go and study there.

It's even easier for Irish people to go on holiday there, I guess we should price everything down..

prinz · 02-11-2010 6:07pm

TheRiddler wrote: »

The best thing for the country is to try and have as many educated people as possible.

Not really. The best thing is to have provide the best education possible to some, rather than a lesser education to more people.

melekalikimaka · 02-11-2010 6:08pm

TheRiddler wrote: »

In this climate cuts have to be made and somebody is always going to lose out. You can't deny students education because their parents don't have great jobs or got cut back etc. Is it fair that wealthy people pay more, probably not, but they can afford to take a hit like that and still lead a comfortable lifestyle, as opposed to people who are already scrapping by as it is. The majority of students struggle to pay as it is, if they can't get third level education where will the country be in 25 years. The best thing for the country is to try and have as many educated people as possible.

robin hood much?

you cant create double standards for the rich and the poor, we all know they exist to some degree... but really, a government implemented double standard, so if we go that way, if a chap whos been earning 100,000 a year and paying tax, becomes unemployed, should he be entitled to four times the dole payments of a chap who earned 25k? seriously, you cant screw over one class to suit the other

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 6:09pm

prinz wrote: »

It's even easier for Irish people to go on holiday there, I guess we should price everything down..

Look, if you're living and working in Ireland you're not going to rent a place in the UK and commute, or you won't go over and back for groceries, it's not feasible. If you want to go to college, and it's cheaper to do so in the UK, then it makes financial sense to go there. Common sense.

prinz · 02-11-2010 6:11pm

flash1080 wrote: »

Look, if you're living and working in Ireland you're not going to rent a place in the UK and commute, or you won't go over and back for groceries, it's not feasible. If you want to go to college, and it's cheaper to do so in the UK, then it makes financial sense to go there. Common sense.

...yeah and no one will stop you. However it's not a common sense argument to price anything here.

TheRiddler · 02-11-2010 6:12pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

robin hood much?

you cant create double standards for the rich and the poor, we all know they exist to some degree... but really, a government implemented double standard, so if we go that way, if a chap whos been earning 100,000 a year and paying tax, becomes unemployed, should he be entitled to four times the dole payments of a chap who earned 25k? seriously, you cant screw over one class to suit the other

I agree with what your saying and it's not ideal obviously but drastic times call for drastic measures. I think I'd be a good communist leader.

Warper · 02-11-2010 6:14pm

Its basically economics. Firstly, there are hardly no countries that have free third-level education. Our colleges and our less-well off students need money. As the Govt are skint the only solution are fees. That is why i am all for fees. Fees should be paid and re-distributed to the colleges and in the form of grants to students that need them. This will improve the quality of our colleges as they are short of cash and also enable the less-well off to avail of college. Students dont drop out because of college fees, its because they cant afford the daily expense of college. Since they abolished fees it has had no impact on the less-well off finishing college. So dont preach to me about a fair society. It is about being equitable. Bring back fees and help the system.

TheRiddler · 02-11-2010 6:17pm

Warper wrote: »

Its basically economics. Firstly, there are hardly no countries that have free third-level education. Our colleges and our less-well off students need money. As the Govt are skint the only solution are fees. That is why i am all for fees. Fees should be paid and re-distributed to the colleges and in the form of grants to students that need them. This will improve the quality of our colleges as they are short of cash and also enable the less-well off to avail of college. Students dont drop out because of college fees, its because they cant afford the daily expense of college. Since they abolished fees it has had no impact on the less-well off finishing college. So dont preach to me about a fair society. It is about being equitable. Bring back fees and help the system.

If fees were brought back would the economy not lose a lot more because of the amount of people who receive grants would increase dramatically as would the money paid out to each student from the government? Do you think we should get rid of the grant scheme as well?

Sierra Oscar · 02-11-2010 6:22pm

TheRiddler wrote: »

If fees were brought back would the economy not lose a lot more because of the amount of people who receive grants would increase dramatically as would the money paid out to each student from the government? Do you think we should get rid of the grant scheme as well?

The government is expected to scale back the maintenance grant by at least 10% in the budget.

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 6:22pm

prinz wrote: »

...yeah and no one will stop you. However it's not a common sense argument to price anything here.

I think there is a problem if increasing numbers of Irish people emigrate to the UK for their education because it's cheaper, where they will probably stay after they graduate. If the govt. wants to keep people here then it does make sense to price education appropriately.

prinz · 02-11-2010 6:24pm

flash1080 wrote: »

I think there is a problem if increasing numbers of Irish people emigrate to the UK for their education because it's cheaper, where they will probably stay after they graduate. If the govt. wants to keep people here then it does make sense to price education appropriately.

Again, if that's the case then there is an argument to price everything down to make sure no one ever emigrates because something is cheaper elsewhere. Emigration is already increasing. It goes in cycles.

Strata · 02-11-2010 6:32pm

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

The 1000's and 1000's of euro that my parents pay every year in tax is what goes toward paying my fees and the 1000's I will have to pay when I am working thats what. You are talking utter crap tbh. The percentage of the tax you pay which goes towards education in comparison with other areas is tiny.

Unfortunately, the 1000's and 1000's of euro that your parents pay every year in tax and the 1000's you will pay when you start working (if you're one of the few who get a job) is not enough to fund third level fees.

flash1080 · 02-11-2010 6:34pm

prinz wrote: »

Again, if that's the case then there is an argument to price everything down to make sure no one ever emigrates because something is cheaper elsewhere. Emigration is already increasing. It goes in cycles.

Increasing fees to a level where it is cheaper to emigrate and study in the UK isn't a cyclical thing. When it comes to third level education most people are at a stage in their life where they have few commitments and will have no problem emigrating. The price of education will have a much larger, continuous impact on emigration than the price of fish.

seanmc1980 · 02-11-2010 6:36pm

why should i paay for someone education? free education my ass, there system is broken, we're producing crap graduates as it is? why not create a uni syetem based on the US. Schlorships an dthe like for people who cant afford it.
if the parents want a child to go to college they should pay for it. poor or rich. 50 euro a week into an account for you kids will give around 50k to go towards their education in 18 years time. that should get then through, so all the "poor" people sitting in the pub complaining about their child not getting a chance to go to college. don't spend that 50 on drink and spend it on you childs future.

Strata · 02-11-2010 6:36pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

why should people who earn more money and pay more taxes be forced to pay more for the same education for their children

Is that not the side effects of living in a socialist country like Ireland though?

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

I still dont understand why people think its fair to punish people for doing well in life by having to pay 1000's more in situations like this. Whats the point in earning more if its nearly all taken off you. Also as pointed out above they pay much more in tax also.

But surely if people can afford to pay, they should? High earners pay more in tax because they can afford to pay more.

University Fees

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