University Fees

Liber8or

With the impending march on Wednesday the 3rd of November, all eyes will be focused upon what cuts or changes will be made to the 3rd level education system in Ireland.

At present, some rumours about the Registration Fee being increased by another €1000 euro, or doubled to a total of €3000 are making their way around.

So, I put the following question to the educated members of After Hours and Boards.ie:

Given the current economic situation, should University/College Fees be re-introduced or should students be given a free education at 3rd level?

In my opinion, University/College education is a privilege and fees should apply to everyone willing to pursue further study. However, I feel a government controlled lending system should be made available to students with low interest rates. Furthermore, students should be exempt from repaying their loans until they have successfully acquired employment and remained there for a year.

EDIT As an extra incentive for debate; why should College/University students be given free education if cuts to social welfare and the health service will make up the difference? Should low income earners suffer more so students can go to College/University for free?

AlmightyCushion

No, they should be reduced if anything........until I finish my course then jack them up as high as possible.

Adriatic

Free obviously and don't forget about the Institutes of Technology; not everyone in college is in a 'university'.

OutlawPete

We should have more scholarship programmes in this country to address the fact that the vast majority of those attending college, are overwhelmingly from more privileged backgrounds.

Celly Smunt

To be honest,students have it easy in Ireland,no tuition fees of feck all.

However education should never be judged by money,for example rich people are just as much idiots as lesser earners,i'd propose making entrance exams harder filtering out time wasters with money or people claiming huge grants for the sake of going to college for some degree of no use and encourage scholarships,you do good in school you go to college,not you do crap in school you'll find a degree somewhere.

Things should stay the way they are. Going to University us already a very expensive choice. Registration fees, cost of living, rent, travel etc etc it will make it a very unfair system where the people who have very little will get to go as they get a grant and the people who have plenty of money can go but the large amount of people in the middle will miss out.

I am also massively against a system like the UK where a student has the burden of a massive loan over them as soon as they get a job.

Celly Smunt

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

Things should stay the way they are. Going to University us already a very expensive choice. Registration fees, cost of living, rent, travel etc etc it will make it a very unfair system where the people who have very little will get to go as they get a grant and the people who have plenty of money can go but the large amount of people in the middle will miss out.

I am also massively against a system like the UK where a student has the burden of a massive loan over them as soon as they get a job.

i disagree,if students knew they had the burden of the loan they wouldn't waste college education,and this would apply to a higher rate for students with parents earning over a certain bracket to pay higher fees to maintain a stability and a high standard of education in classes within universities

Gurgle

Lets abolish this free secondary school notion while we're at it. If theres one thing this country needs more of, its illiterate labourers.

Theres far too many graduates hanging around working these 'job' things, taking 'money' from multinational corporations and paying 'tax'.

pmcmahon

pmcmahon wrote: »

i disagree,if students knew they had the burden of the loan they wouldn't waste college education,and this would apply to a higher rate for students with parents earning over a certain bracket to pay higher fees to maintain a stability and a high standard of education in classes within universities

But virtually nobody wastes college education, people have the craic for the first year or two which they are entitled to once they get through their exams and then knuckle down in order to get a good qualification.

If they fail a year they have to pay the full fee to repeat the year, which is quite an incentive in itself not to fail.

I just cannot agree with putting the burden of a big loan on people starting out in the world. They will have enough loans in their life to deal with with mortgage's, car loans etc.

gurramok

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

But virtually nobody wastes college education, people have the craic for the first year or two which they are entitled to once they get through their exams and then knuckle down in order to get a good qualification.

If they fail a year they have to pay the full fee to repeat the year, which is quite an incentive in itself not to fail.

I just cannot agree with putting the burden of a big loan on people starting out in the world. They will have enough loans in their life to deal with with mortgage's, car loans etc.

They end up emigrating.

ILA

No cutbacks, no fees, no Fianna Fail TDs.

Personally I think they made a balls out of this campaign like everything else. Back last year there was a bit of militancy with the F.E.E campaign group and the USI blockading Fianna Fail ministers and other such stunts but then once the threat of fees evaporated with O'Keefe it all quietened down.

Maynooth was the only place were the F.E.E campaign kept active due to a number of radicals there who keep it going, but so far things have been slow to mobilise. Its like students don't give a ****e and will just get the grant by finding loopholes if fees come in

Irishrossoblu

Can anybody explain to me why a Scandinavian style student loan system couldnt work here? It seems to work very well there, and they have many years to pay it back in small ammounts.

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

They end up emigrating.

Most only if they absolutely have to.

I for one have no desire to leave Ireland and I really hope I am not in a situation in the future where I have to.

SeaFields

If it comes to the point where resources are stretched so far that the quality of the 3rd level education suffers dramatically, then the reintroduction is very necessary. We cannot build a first class knowledge economy with third class graduates.

Celly Smunt

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

But virtually nobody wastes college education, people have the craic for the first year or two which they are entitled to once they get through their exams and then knuckle down in order to get a good qualification.

If they fail a year they have to pay the full fee to repeat the year, which is quite an incentive in itself not to fail.

I just cannot agree with putting the burden of a big loan on people starting out in the world. They will have enough loans in their life to deal with with mortgage's, car loans etc.

how many people drop out? how many people end up with worthless degrees? how many people do nothing but have craic for the two years learn off a few pieces of paper pass an exam but have actually learned nothing?

if they had to pay for their whole education (dished out fairly based on financial circumstances as i said) how much bigger an incentive would that be?

and after their education why would they need to take out more loans?,surely pointless financing and loans is what led us here in the first place..

gurramok

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

Most only if they absolutely have to.

I for one have no desire to leave Ireland and I really hope I am not in a situation in the future where I have to.

Then you see the point of it been pointless to educate said students when they never give a cent back to the taxpayer?

Plenty of students could afford the fees as most students in the best universities are from wealthy families, the fees should be tripled to 9000 imho.

Spudmonkey

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

But virtually nobody wastes college education, people have the craic for the first year or two which they are entitled to once they get through their exams and then knuckle down in order to get a good qualification.

Naive?

I find it humorous that such a poll is attempted on a forum with a large student population...

Celly Smunt

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Naive?

I find it humorous that such a pole is attempted on a forum with a large student population...

fine example of our current education system

ILA

gurramok wrote: »

Plenty of students could afford the fees as most students in the best universities are from wealthy families, the fees should be tripled to 9000 imho.

Well then raise the fees for the universities or means test them. Leave the people who end up in ITs to work as gophers as they are to pay 1,500-2,000.

klose

Hoping to god that they'll stay the same, ideally lower but fat chance of that. I've had to take a year out because I cant afford college I save 200 a week, always thankful I atleast got a job in the current economic state.
By saving 200 a week I'll have around 10k saved come next college year and this would have paid for 4 years fees at the current rate with money left over and would have relied on the grant for accomadation and have a few bob on me during the week. I'm stuck at home with just my parents and sister, all are working, tis hard going I rarely see my friends and lost my girlfriend because of distance issues, all pretty awful. Slightly depressing if anything, but the thoughts of college next year always kept me going and happy.
If the fees are however increased and the grant requirements made more strict I very much doubt I'll be able to afford it next year, the thoughts of which are daunting and depressing.
18 y/o fella btw.


Saw the most awful attitude to the hike in fees on the facebook public invite to the march on the 3rd from some cnut from trinners. Basically a fcuk the poor attitude, never wanted to punch a person before untill I read his comments he left on the page..

here's hoping for the fees to remain the same!

DeepSleeper

The way I see it, we simply have to bring back fees for 3rd level education for two reasons - quality and fairness. Irish universities are suffering badly from a lack of funding and this isn't going to improve unless fees return - class sizes are growing, research is suffering, students are getting less and less individual attention and university management teams are putting huge pressure on academics to pass students at degree level and to accept weak students at postgraduate level in order to keep numbers up. In terms of fairness, I simply can't understand how it is fair that a young person who never went to 3rd level and who is working very hard to earn, say, €30k, should be paying tax to send the child of a wealthy couple to university. Think about it (with the aid of a lazy stereotype...): every taxpayer in the country is paying to send Student X, the son/daughter of a medical consultant and a barrister with a combined income of €350,000, to university for free!!! Have we lost the plot? Let those who can afford it, pay for it, and then let us all support those who can't afford it.

Liber8or

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Naive?

I find it humorous that such a pole is attempted on a forum with a large student population...

If that is the case, as you claim, then I am glad I posted this poll here. All the focus seems to be on the students who say "Education should be free, its a right, etc". However, the results so far seem to indicate that not all students are in consensus over the matter.

The point being; I am glad this poll is highlighting the divide that exists amongst students.

Secondly, the reason I posted this poll in AH is because I wanted to avoid a Student biased forum. AH, hopefully, will offer the opinion of those people working or not working and get their opinions on why students should have free education or not - afterall, these people are the ones paying tax for such an education.

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

Then you see the point of it been pointless to educate said students when they never give a cent back to the taxpayer?

Plenty of students could afford the fees as most students in the best universities are from wealthy families, the fees should be tripled to 9000 imho.

Nonsense especially the part about tripling the fees, your not well if you think that would be fair.

In the end the vast majority of college educated students will spend most of their working lives in Ireland, they may go away for a while but most will be back and will pay back the fees many times in crazy levels of income tax which people earning a decent wage have to pay.

-Trek-

Irishrossoblu wrote: »

Can anybody explain to me why a Scandinavian style student loan system couldnt work here? It seems to work very well there, and they have many years to pay it back in small ammounts.

because this is Ireland ....... nothing works right here.

Spudmonkey

pmcmahon wrote: »

fine example of our current education system

As a shafted taxpayer, you'll have to forgive my use of the wrong word. My mind was focused on other things.

ILA

Spudmonkey wrote: »

As a shafted taxpayer, you'll have to forgive my use of the wrong word. My mind was focused on other things.

Give the students you want to charge 3-4 years and they'll be shafted taxpayers too.

All our asses are sore, it's not just those working.

mahamageehad

DeepSleeper wrote: »

The way I see it, we simply have to bring back fees for 3rd level education for two reasons - quality and fairness. Irish universities are suffering badly from a lack of funding and this isn't going to improve unless fees return - class sizes are growing, research is suffering, students are getting less and less individual attention and university management teams are putting huge pressure on academics to pass students at degree level and to accept weak students at postgraduate level in order to keep numbers up. In terms of fairness, I simply can't understand how it is fair that a young person who never went to 3rd level and who is working very hard to earn, say, €30k, should be paying tax to send the child of a wealthy couple to university. Think about it (with the aid of a lazy stereotype...): every taxpayer in the country is paying to send Student X, the son/daughter of a medical consultant and a barrister with a combined income of €350,000, to university for free!!! Have we lost the plot? Let those who can afford it, pay for it, and then let us all support those who can't afford it.

But how does one decide who needs support and who doesn't? And more importantly who decides? I have put myself through college, in my 3rd year now. i am already in debt. I would not be able to afford to finish my degree if fees came in.

Celly Smunt

whippedcream wrote: »

Hoping to god that they'll stay the same, ideally lower but fat chance of that. I've had to take a year out because I cant afford college I save 200 a week, always thankful I atleast got a job in the current economic state.
By saving 200 a week I'll have around 10k saved come next college year and this would have paid for 4 years fees at the current rate with money left over and would have relied on the grant for accomadation and have a few bob on me during the week. I'm stuck at home with just my parents and sister, all are working, tis hard going i rarely see my friends and lost my girlfriend because of distance issues, all pretty rotten. Slightly depressing if anything, but the thoughts of college next year always kept me going and happy.
If the fees are however increased and the grant requirements made more strict I very much doubt i'll be able to afford it next year, the thoughts of which are daunting and depressing.
18 y/o fella btw.


Saw the most awful attitude to the hike in fees on the facebook public invite to the march on the 3rd from some cnut from trinners. Basically a fcuk the poor attituded, never wanted to punch a person before untill I read his comments he left on the page..

here's hoping for the fees to remain the same!

prime example,why should the rich get to go to college?

tougher exams,more incentive filter out rich idiots.

NSNO

Fees are the only way in which we can safeguard and grow our University research sector.

If we are truly serious about growing indigenous, high-tech industry then we need to create an enviroment in which our best and brightest have access to the cutting-edge of research programmes. Our universities badly need funding. We can't keep churning out accountants, teachers, lawyers and doctors. They may be very intelligent people who are more than capable at their jobs but they won't dig us out of recession. We need Computer Scientists and Engineers, Chemical Engineers, Physicists... People who can actually create something and not just work a service job for 35 years. The only way to attract the best lecturers and the best research companies and to produce the best graduates is through having good funding and good research programmes.

There is no reason that we can't introduce fees along with a loan system like they have in Britain and elsewhere. Access to education will be protected for the less well-off by a flexible payment schedule and through housing/living grants and allowances.

Spudmonkey

ILA wrote: »

Give the students you want to charge 3-4 years and they'll be shafted taxpayers too.

All our asses are sore, it's not just those working.

I fail to see how students have been affected yet? Unless those asses are sore from said pole.

ILA

Spudmonkey wrote: »

I fail to see how students have been affected yet? Unless those asses are sore from said pole.

Increase in registration fees from 900 to 1500 last year for one thing.

Students have families, who are struggling to the same extent as others, its not like they exist in a vacuum like the top 2% who raped the economy and are now consolidating the money they pumped offshore.

If you increase fees, you're going to increase emigration and the numbers on the dole.

DeepSleeper

DeepSleeper wrote: »

The way I see it, we simply have to bring back fees for 3rd level education for two reasons - quality and fairness. Irish universities are suffering badly from a lack of funding and this isn't going to improve unless fees return - class sizes are growing, research is suffering, students are getting less and less individual attention and university management teams are putting huge pressure on academics to pass students at degree level and to accept weak students at postgraduate level in order to keep numbers up. In terms of fairness, I simply can't understand how it is fair that a young person who never went to 3rd level and who is working very hard to earn, say, €30k, should be paying tax to send the child of a wealthy couple to university. Think about it (with the aid of a lazy stereotype...): every taxpayer in the country is paying to send Student X, the son/daughter of a medical consultant and a barrister with a combined income of €350,000, to university for free!!! Have we lost the plot? Let those who can afford it, pay for it, and then let us all support those who can't afford it.

I'm afraid thats how the world works my friend, you could easily say why do the people on 350k have to pay 50 or 60k (probably a lot more) a year in tax just to keep dole in the pockets of 5 or 6 scrotes who don't want to work. They are paying well enough tax to the government to cover their childs education and are probably paying for the grant that the child of a household on a combined income of 30k would be receiving.

gurramok

ILA wrote: »

Well then raise the fees for the universities or means test them. Leave the people who end up in ITs to work as gophers as they are to pay 1,500-2,000.

What? Means test everyone and leave the poor alone.

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

Nonsense especially the part about tripling the fees, your not well if you think that would be fair.

In the end the vast majority of college educated students will spend most of their working lives in Ireland, they may go away for a while but most will be back and will pay back the fees many times in crazy levels of income tax which people earning a decent wage have to pay.

I'm well, thanks for asking

How is it not fair? If they come from families that can well afford to fund their means, it is defo fair.

Only some will come back, the rest who go a free ride courtesy of me the taxpayer are laughing at us.

Hazys

A huge percentage of students take college for granted...the amount of people who just piss about for years because its their privilege is ridculous. It also brings down the other students.

My brother in his 3rd year went to study in a college in the US and he said the difference in the amount of work he had to do during the year was staggering...normally like i did also, you would do the bare minimum all year then as soon as you had the month off before the exams you would actually start working. In the US college my brother went to, some courses had no end of the year exams instead had 4 25% exams tru the year.

If not a loan system, i would suggest some performance related pay structure, something where the Students can see the money coming out of their/parents pockets e.g. the first year of college is free, the second year fees are based on performance. if you got a 1H in 1st year, 2nd year is free, if you got a 2H1, you pay 20% of the fees for 2nd year. etc Fail 100%.


Edit: Also fees were brought in to allow people from disadvantaged families to get a chance to go to college...that really hasnt happened, there are still the same barriers for these people, not just financial.

DeepSleeper

mahamageehad wrote: »

But how does one decide who needs support and who doesn't? And more importantly who decides? I have put myself through college, in my 3rd year now. i am already in debt. I would not be able to afford to finish my degree if fees came in.

Simple - A fair means test. We've had such a system for years for Local Authority Grants, but many would suggest it isn't fair for a variety of reasons. For example, the all-or-nothing angle: You earn €1 more than the threshold, so your child gets nothing. So, instead of having such a harsh system, you introduce a finely graduated system where people can get 100%, 95%, 90%, 85% etc. etc. of their fees and maintenance paid according to their means. That way, the person who needs most gets a lot more than they are getting now and the person who needs least gets least.

If we keep going the way we are going, Irish universities will cut and cut (while all the time awarding more degrees) and so many degrees from Irish institutions will be nearly worthless because they will not be taken seriously in other countries due to their low quality.

Stinicker

I think there should be a system in place that actually rewards good students who go on and get their diploma or whatever it is they are after which would offset some of the costs.

There is a big difference between a University student and some moron doing a worthless Arts Degree in a crappy IT or worse still a course in Bar serving like they have in IT Tralee. Some people are naturally stupid don't need the Government wasting millions of them to fail so they can be out partying till 2am spending their college days pissed.

mahamageehad

ILA wrote: »

Increase in registration fees from 900 to 1500 last year for one thing.

Students have families, who are struggling to the same extent as others, its not like they exist in a vacuum like the top 2% who raped the economy and are now consolidating the money they pumped offshore.

If you increase fees, you're going to increase emigration and the numbers on the dole.

I'm in germany studying for the year on erasmus. There are no fees here either. If fees were reintroduced in Ireland I wouldn't be able to afford it and would probably stay here. I agree that it would push up emigration, and those that are homebirds or who can't afford college would simply end up on the dole.

gurramok wrote: »

What? Means test everyone and leave the poor alone.

I'm well, thanks for asking

How is it not fair? If they come from families that can well afford to fund their means, it is defo fair.

Only some will come back, the rest who go a free ride courtesy of me the taxpayer are laughing at us.

Because Ireland doesn't work that way! There will always be the rich with accountants who can fiddle the books to make sure their child gets a grant and then there's the families that are struggling who can't get a grant because they're 100 over the limit.

I don't see why you describe university as a free ride. In Ireland today it is essential to have a degree to get a good job. It's the natural follow on to secondary school. Education is the most important thing! Do you think there should be fees in secondary school too?

I think the only thing that fees will accomplish is to increase the divide between the "privileged" rich and the working class struggling "poor".

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

What? Means test everyone and leave the poor alone.



I'm well, thanks for asking

How is it not fair? If they come from families that can well afford to fund their means, it is defo fair.

Only some will come back, the rest who go a free ride courtesy of me the taxpayer are laughing at us.

I am a firm believer that people that do well for themselves should not be punished for doing well in life in ways such as this.

I reckon at least 80% of people who go to college in Ireland will spend more than enough time paying tax here to easily cover their college fees.

gurramok

mahamageehad wrote: »

Because Ireland doesn't work that way! There will always be the rich with accountants who can fiddle the books to make sure their child gets a grant and then there's the families that are struggling who can't get a grant because they're 100 over the limit.

I don't see why you describe university as a free ride. In Ireland today it is essential to have a degree to get a good job. It's the natural follow on to secondary school. Education is the most important thing! Do you think there should be fees in secondary school too?

I think the only thing that fees will accomplish is to increase the divide between the "privileged" rich and the working class struggling "poor".

Its a free ride as they pay feck all for their studies. (not free as its easy to study for )

Why not get families who can afford fees to pay for their kids education?

The sheer cost of 3rd level is the issue here, not 2nd level or 1st level or high babies junior infants class

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

I am a firm believer that people that do well for themselves should not be punished for doing well in life in ways such as this.

I reckon at least 80% of people who go to college in Ireland will spend more than enough time paying tax here to easily cover their college fees.

Does a student pay for the cost of their education in 3rd level pay for it all in indirect taxes? Seriously?!:eek:

Mark200

pmcmahon wrote: »

To be honest,students have it easy in Ireland,no tuition fees of feck all.

The €1500 'registration fee' is, for all intents and purposes, a tuition fee. I know it's not that much in comparison to other countries but €6000 to go through college is hardly "feck all".

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

But virtually nobody wastes college education, people have the craic for the first year or two which they are entitled to once they get through their exams and then knuckle down in order to get a good qualification.

If they fail a year they have to pay the full fee to repeat the year, which is quite an incentive in itself not to fail.

I just cannot agree with putting the burden of a big loan on people starting out in the world. They will have enough loans in their life to deal with with mortgage's, car loans etc.

Plenty of people waste college education. That includes people who were never sure what course they wanted to do, and just picked one for the hell of it until a few weeks/months in deciding it's not for them.

gurramok wrote: »

Plenty of students could afford the fees as most students in the best universities are from wealthy families, the fees should be tripled to 9000 imho.

I'd love to know where you got that statistic from. I read somewhere recently that almost half of third-level education students are availing of a grant of some sort.

DeepSleeper wrote: »

In terms of fairness, I simply can't understand how it is fair that a young person who never went to 3rd level and who is working very hard to earn, say, €30k, should be paying tax to send the child of a wealthy couple to university. Think about it (with the aid of a lazy stereotype...): every taxpayer in the country is paying to send Student X, the son/daughter of a medical consultant and a barrister with a combined income of €350,000, to university for free!!! Have we lost the plot? Let those who can afford it, pay for it, and then let us all support those who can't afford it.

That's really not the way it works at all. You're completely ignoring the fact that the rich mammy and daddy that you're talking about pay far far more in taxes than the hard-working €30k young person.



Anyway, I think a loan system or graduate tax system should be brought in whereby you can pay back the cost of your college education if/when you're earning enough to do so. I don't see how that couldn't be considered fair. Why should other people pay for your degree when, thanks to that degree, you're now earning enough to pay back the costs of it?

Of course, a loan system or graduate tax would not help the Government in the short-term. The Government needs to save €15bn in the next 4 years... and probably due to legal reasons, the Government couldn't tell people half way through their college education that they'll now be liable for their fees. If an increase in the 'registration' fee was only temporary until a loan system or graduate tax kicked in, and people who are from genuinely poor backgrounds were given assistance in paying the fee... then I think that would be the way to go. I don't think raising the registration fee to some arbitrary number without a plan for the future is the way to go. And if a loan system is to be brought in then it should be run by the Government at close to no interest. Maybe something like 3% interest to give incentive to people who can afford to pay for their education to do so themselves instead of taking out a Government loan.

Anyway, I won't be marching with the USI on Wednesday because their only policy is to oppose everything. The fact that the Government needs to make cuts somewhere... in every department. The USI should be coming up with the best way to make savings rather than just blindly saying no to everything.

Spudmonkey

ILA wrote: »

If you increase fees, you're going to increase emigration and the numbers on the dole.

So instead we don't increase fees and they..... emigrate or go on the dole?

When my older sisters went to college in the early 90's, fees were £3000 per year and believe me my family could ill afford it. They scraped the money together however as they wanted them to have that education.

What they gained in exchange were significantly better degrees (which have since become diluted) as those who were in college then were far more interested in getting a good education than some today.

mahamageehad

DeepSleeper wrote: »

Simple - A fair means test. We've had such a system for years for Local Authority Grants, but many would suggest it isn't fair for a variety of reasons. For example, the all-or-nothing angle: You earn €1 more than the threshold, so your child gets nothing. So, instead of having such a harsh system, you introduce a finely graduated system where people can get 100%, 95%, 90%, 85% etc. etc. of their fees and maintenance paid according to their means. That way, the person who needs most gets a lot more than they are getting now and the person who needs least gets least.

If we keep going the way we are going, Irish universities will cut and cut (while all the time awarding more degrees) and so many degrees from Irish institutions will be nearly worthless because they will not be taken seriously in other countries due to their low quality.

Yes but this is my point exactly. Most people will agree that the current grant system is not fair. For one, I would like to see people who drop out in first year having to repay their maintenance grant. I can also see the sense in having the grant results dependent.

If the government cannot get this grant scheme right, what makes you think that a fee's system would be done any better? It would take time and money to make a scheme like this workable, and unfortunately our government is too short sighted for this. They are looking for a quick fix, so either fees will come in for everyone or the registration fees will be dramatically hiked. So only the privileged can afford to go to college, and the rest are forced into emigration or the dole.

There should be better means tests in many different sections in this country- children's allowance, medical cards, dole, student grants etc. However the quick fix always wins out.

gurramok

Mark200 wrote: »

I'd love to know where you got that statistic from. I read somewhere recently that almost half of third-level education students are availing of a grant of some sort.

Its worse. If a medical student was to study in London and go the full hog, they'd be asked €30,000 for the privilege http://www.qmul.ac.uk/international/feesfinance/

Irish students here have been taking the mick and have some gall to protest against paying their way :mad:

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

Why not get families who can afford fees to pay for their kids education?




Does a student pay for the cost of their education in 3rd level pay for it all in indirect taxes? Seriously?!:eek:

On the first point above, I simply think it is not fair to have people who already pay vastly more in taxes to have to pay more of the money that they have earned by working very hard to be in a position to have more money.

Do you realise how much high earners pay in income tax. They also pump much more money into the economy in the from of vat on purchases for instance as they spend more, which they may be less inclined to do if paying 10K per year, per child to put them through college.

On the second point, obviously taxes are indirect but still spending a good few years working on a presumed higher wage due to having a college education would cover the cost of college.

I don't see people emigrating permanently at a mass rate like you say, there are plenty of people going to oz for a year etc but most are back. Only a small percentage stay gone imo.

Chuchoter

I hope they don't bring them in, mostly because I simply can't afford them. I think there is a lot of wastage in the third level sector (too many ITs for one thing).

gurramok

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

On the first point above, I simply think it is not fair to have people who already pay vastly more in taxes to have to pay more of the money that they have earned by working very hard to be in a position to have more money.

Do you realise how much high earners pay in income tax. They also pump much more money into the economy in the from of vat on purchases for instance, which they may be less inclined to do if paying 10K per year, per child to put them through college.

On your first point, they can afford to pay for the kids education. The poor cannot.

On the 2nd point, you target very high earners. They are just a tiny minority and yes they must pay. The middle class in this country can well afford to pay for their kids education and bringing in these higher fees is a way to make them do so. If they can afford to send their kids to private 2nd level schools, whats the problem?

Toes

This country has reached the stage where we cost to much to manufacture much of anything anymore. So, why would a multinational come here?

Because we have thousands of highly educated talented people ready to work in highly technical sectors. And thats due to our free third level education.

Bring back fees and you drastically cut the amount of people with third level education and hence the very reason why most multinationals (who employ thousands) come here.

gurramok

Toes wrote: »

This country has reached the stage where we cost to much to manufacture much of anything anymore. So, why would a multinational come here?

Because we have thousands of highly educated talented people ready to work in highly technical sectors. And thats due to our free third level education.

Bring back fees and you drastically cut the amount of people with third level education and hence the very reason why most multinationals (who employ thousands) come here.

You'll have to explain that one. Intel came here in the 80's and stayed many years before 'free fees' came in. Have you ever thought of quality over quantity in relation to students?

On relation to cost, where do you expect the money to come from to pay for education if fees are not touched?

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

On your first point, they can afford to pay for the kids education. The poor cannot.

On the 2nd point, you target very high earners. They are just a tiny minority and yes they must pay. The middle class in this country can well afford to pay for their kids education and bringing in these higher fees is a way to make them do so. If they can afford to send their kids to private 2nd level schools, whats the problem?

Just because they can afford to does not mean they should have to.

Should a middle class person go into the supermarket and be told they have to pay 5 euro for a litre of milk because they can afford to?

Also having enough money to pay to put a child through college does not necessarily mean being able to afford to. A person may on paper earn enough but after forking out say 20k to cover the fees of two children + the other costs associated with college they could end up in a worse situation than the person earning less money.

gurramok

Asher Vast Hippy wrote: »

Just because they can afford to does not mean they should have to.

Should a middle class person go into the supermarket and be told they have to pay 5 euro for a litre of milk because they can afford to?

No, a litre of milk does not cost many thousands and is not funded from taxpayer money.

An educational course at 3rd level costs many thousands per student, who do you want to pay for that?

Kimono-Girl

gurramok wrote: »

An educational course at 3rd level costs many thousands per student, who do you want to pay for that?

this is the part that winds me up the most!

As i have said,

at the end of the day the majority of students entering 3rd level are at least 18 years of age, they are adults not children, as an adult you learn if you want something bad enough you save for it, you go without your comfort things to get what you want, the government can no longer afford to cover your costs so naturally its up to you to pay for your college education if you choose to have one.

its no more your right to go to college then it is to own an iphone!

its this irish 'it's my entitlement' attitude that unfortunately many people here have developed that causes most of the problems when it comes to things such as college fee's!

if you want a better life, work for a few years, live on the breadline and save up the money to pay your fee's, as an adult its your responsibility not the 'government's', they have given the majority Irish people a gift of a decade of free college while they could afford to, now they cannot afford to give it, does not mean you are entitled to it.