Jack Russell Puppies - Tail Docking thoughts???

Graces7

Lily10 wrote: »

Can you please explain? Especially to those working in the veterinary field because this is news to me... and so your comment about dogs not feeling pain when their tail slowly loses blood supply, become necrotic and falls off. Maybe they are not screaming loudly enough for you.
As for you thinking the puppies must not feel much pain because they feed from their mothers right after docking, I would ask you what baby does not seek comfort from its mother when hurt?

And the same applies to lambs.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

There is no cruelty law about docking lambs which in fact is a procedure carried out for the sole purpose of preventing unnecessary suffering. As I've already hinted at farmers don't chose to farm in most cases but do so because it is the only option they have. Who on earth would work 12+ hour days, 7 days a week just to stay afloat if they could do something else?

Just as a matter of interest, do you personally eat lamb? Or have you ever fed it to your dogs?

I don't think that farmers farm because it is their only option. Most farmers that I know would say that it was "in their blood". In my area lots of smallholders have a few sheep, cows & ponies as a "hobby".

Yes I eat meat but I believe in Compassionate Farming. We can hardly argue against docking in one species on the basis of causing pain & then say that it is OK to do this to lambs. There is no need for any farm animal to suffer pain. It may mean more work for the farmer or a higher price for the meat.

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 wrote: »

You are evading the point; lambs feel pain etc. So what is said re the docking of elastic band docking of dogs applies to lambs also.

Fly strike is easily avoided by good husbandry also. Dagging. Just is the easy way regardless of suffering is all. Like much of the pain caused to animals; for human convenience. Easy to let sheep roam with no checks or real care.

And that question re "do you eat lamb"! Laughable of course.

I haven't said that they feel no pain during docking, just suggesting that it is the lesser of two evils in the case of sheep. While agree to some extent that there are other ways to avoid flystrike I'm also considering the fact that they are often sold on to another farmer who may not have the time or inclination to put in the same work.

The do you eat lamb question was only a matter of interest question to asertain if Discodog's comment was comming from the point of view of someone who did or not. Though I suppose that made no difference really.

Lily10

Graces7 wrote: »

And the same applies to lambs.

Couldn't agree more.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

Can you translate

This is an English speaking forum, so, no need.

Discodog wrote: »

So you believe that banding, placing a tight rubber band over the tail to kill it, is humane & way better than cutting. This Vet disagrees & has a suggestion as to what he would like to do with one of those bands !.

"Using elastrator bands causes prolonged pain in the puppy and is one of the least humane methods around. Imagine having a tight elastic band around your own, or even worse your baby's finger until it literally rots and falls off. Tetanus can also very easily develop in puppies with this barbaric method. The Clostridium tetani bug causing tetanus is an anaerobic bacterium which means that it lives in an environment with very low oxygen. The bloodless necrotic stump of a puppy's tail docked in this way is an ideal medium for Clostridia to grow in.

The elastrator ring was originally designed for the castration and docking of lambs tails. I would love to use it in the way it was originally intended on the people advocating this barbaric form of tail docking."

Gerry Retief
Veterinarian.
Owner: Montwood Park Veterinary Clinic

If the stump becomes infected, what of it?

Discodog wrote: »

I know a few excellent Irish Vets. The one that I entrust my dogs to is exceptional. But there are definitely more "old school" vets here especially in rural areas. The good ones are often younger & have gained experience outside of Ireland.

There are MANY excellent Irish vets, and they do not need to have gone abroad for experience.

Lily10 wrote: »

Can you please explain? Especially to those working in the veterinary field because this is news to me... and so your comment about dogs not feeling pain when their tail slowly loses blood supply, become necrotic and falls off. Maybe they are not screaming loudly enough for you.
As for you thinking the puppies must not feel much pain because they feed from their mothers right after docking, I would ask you what baby does not seek comfort from its mother when hurt?

I never said that the puppy does not feel pain, you are the second person to make this silly assumption.

sligopark

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I never said that the puppy does not feel pain, you are the second person to make this silly assumption.

as per circumcision so why the hold up regarding dog docking? Not for animal cruelty but all up for prioritisation...

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

How do you riddle this one out?

The only thing that is riddled is your justification for causing unnecessary suffering to your puppies. Your argument is riddled with holes.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

If the stump becomes infected, what of it?
There are MANY excellent Irish vets, and they do not need to have gone abroad for experience.
I never said that the puppy does not feel pain, you are the second person to make this silly assumption.

I suppose that after you have inflicted the pain why worry about a nasty infection & more pain.

An excellent Vet being one that agrees with you.

No you accept the pain - well you don't but your puppies have to.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

The only thing that is riddled is your justification for causing unnecessary suffering to your puppies. Your argument is riddled with holes.



I suppose that after you have inflicted the pain why worry about a nasty infection & more pain.

An excellent Vet being one that agrees with you.

No you accept the pain - well you don't but your puppies have to.

You seem to be under some impression that I am arguing with you. I have no idea where you are coming from with that.

What part of a dead infected stump that is no longer part of the animal do you not understand? If it becomes infected, and none I have ever done have; what of it, I ask again? Do you think I feed the stumps to the mother or pups?

Again, you're incorrect, and if you were actually reading the thread through your fog of righteousness, you would have spotted that my vet will not do docking or dew-claw removal.

kaiser sauze

Lily10 wrote: »

Can you please explain?

Cat and dog spaying is different in the sense that the reasons it is done are completely different.

Cats are done because they are wilder by nature, much harder to contain, breed often and have large litters.

Dogs are done because the owners want an easy life.

ISDW

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Cat and dog spaying is different in the sense that the reasons it is done are completely different.

Cats are done because they are wilder by nature, much harder to contain, breed often and have large litters.

Dogs are done because the owners want an easy life.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, I get all of the dogs that I rehome neutered/spayed to prevent unwanted litters and more dogs being needlessly put to sleep. A lot of cat rescues will only rehome to indoor homes, so the argument about them harder to contain is not true. People choose to let their cats out, a cat would be just as happy with a run built for it, giving it access inside and outside but securely contained.

I get my own dogs down as I believe the research that indicates it can help in the prevention of cancer, thereby prolonging my dogs' lives.

thebullkf

ISDW wrote: »

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, I get all of the dogs that I rehome neutered/spayed to prevent unwanted litters and more dogs being needlessly put to sleep. A lot of cat rescues will only rehome to indoor homes, so the argument about them harder to contain is not true. People choose to let their cats out, a cat would be just as happy with a run built for it, giving it access inside and outside but securely contained.

I get my own dogs down as I believe the research that indicates it can help in the prevention of cancer, thereby prolonging my dogs' lives.

most (all?) rehoming centres make it a condition of re-homing that animals rescued are neutered.

i know little about cat rescue but i asumethe sentiment is the same.?

imo people use the cancer thing as a handy excuse(not saying you or anyone here btw;)) for neutering when all they want is a quieter,easy to manage pet.

that is definitey my and my friends/family's experience.

kaiser sauze

ISDW wrote: »

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, I get all of the dogs that I rehome neutered/spayed to prevent unwanted litters and more dogs being needlessly put to sleep. A lot of cat rescues will only rehome to indoor homes, so the argument about them harder to contain is not true. People choose to let their cats out, a cat would be just as happy with a run built for it, giving it access inside and outside but securely contained.

I get my own dogs down as I believe the research that indicates it can help in the prevention of cancer, thereby prolonging my dogs' lives.

You disagree, fine.

I also find it funny how people will only ever back up their side, and then allude that there is no other side.

I know NOONE who contains their cats in the way you claim. So I call bull on your assertion that my claim is unfounded. I also know of no cats that would be happy to be contained, unless they are infirmed.

My vet has told me that dogs that are bred have the same lower chance of cancer as those who are spayed. The theory is that at time of birthing the evacuation and resultant cleansing of the uterus by post-pregnancy bodily functions inhibit any potential cancer growth.

At no point did I state that spaying a dog that will never be bred is a bad idea.

ISDW

kaiser sauze wrote: »

You disagree, fine.

I also find it funny how people will only ever back up their side, and then allude that there is no other side.

I know NOONE who contains their cats in the way you claim. So I call bull on your assertion that my claim is unfounded. I also know of no cats that would be happy to be contained, unless they are infirmed.

My vet has told me that dogs that are bred have the same lower chance of cancer as those who are spayed. The theory is that at time of birthing the evacuation and resultant cleansing of the uterus by post-pregnancy bodily functions inhibit any potential cancer growth.

At no point did I state that spaying a dog that will never be bred is a bad idea.

Just because you don't know anybody who has indoor only cats doesn't mean that lots of people don't. I have a lot of friends who's cats never go outside, and have very happy lives, as far as I can tell, I've never managed to get them to tell me one way or the other. But, your point was that people get their dogs neutered for their own convenience, but people let their cats out to roam for the same reason surely? Really there is no reason why people cannot build a cat run attached to their house to keep them safe and contained, why don't people do it? Expense and its easier to let the cat out, same argument as you are using for neutering dogs surely?

More than one vet has told me that there is a decreased chance of cancer in bitches if spayed before their first season.

kaiser sauze

ISDW wrote: »

Just because you don't know anybody who has indoor only cats doesn't mean that lots of people don't. I have a lot of friends who's cats never go outside, and have very happy lives, as far as I can tell, I've never managed to get them to tell me one way or the other. But, your point was that people get their dogs neutered for their own convenience, but people let their cats out to roam for the same reason surely? Really there is no reason why people cannot build a cat run attached to their house to keep them safe and contained, why don't people do it? Expense and its easier to let the cat out, same argument as you are using for neutering dogs surely?

More than one vet has told me that there is a decreased chance of cancer in bitches if spayed before their first season.

Remind me never to go into a house where the cat pisses and sh1ts inside!

I have not said anything about the expense of having a dog spayed, it is really annoying when people put words in your mouth.

Just because 'more than one vet' has told you something does not diminish or negate the advice my vet gave me.

Shanao

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Remind me never to go into a house where the cat pisses and sh1ts inside!

That's what litter boxes are for

kaiser sauze

Shanao wrote: »

That's what litter boxes are for

Still being done inside.

pokertalk

still standing your ground i see kaiser. and doing well;)

Shanao

And what's wrong with that? I have three indoor cats (too dangerous to let them outside because our house is backed onto a busy road) and plenty of people have told me that they wouldn't even know we had cats unless they saw them. We're getting two more cats in a few weeks and we have absolutely no problem with them all being inside.

This thread seems to be getting a little off topic so I'm just going to ask, you dont have to answer if you dont want to. I'm not going to jump in with 'Oh you're maiming puppies' and all that, and you dont have to give your reasons for it, but I'm just genuinely curious as to why people do dock dogs? I just cant really get my head around why people would want to when there's no health benefits?

pokertalk

Shanao wrote: »

And what's wrong with that? I have three indoor cats (too dangerous to let them outside because our house is backed onto a busy road) and plenty of people have told me that they wouldn't even know we had cats unless they saw them. We're getting two more cats in a few weeks and we have absolutely no problem with them all being inside.

This thread seems to be getting a little off topic so I'm just going to ask, you dont have to answer if you dont want to. I'm not going to jump in with 'Oh you're maiming puppies' and all that, and you dont have to give your reasons for it, but I'm just genuinely curious as to why people do dock dogs? I just cant really get my head around why people would want to when there's no health benefits?

demand is the only reason i can think of oh and showing

Cherry Blossom

pokertalk wrote: »

demand is the only reason i can think of oh and showing

Most breed standards insist that the tail must be intact for showing and none specify that the tail should be docked , thats for Ireland. In the UK dogs born after a certain date cannot be docked if they are to be shown regardless of breed.

ISDW

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Remind me never to go into a house where the cat pisses and sh1ts inside!

I have not said anything about the expense of having a dog spayed, it is really annoying when people put words in your mouth.

Just because 'more than one vet' has told you something does not diminish or negate the advice my vet gave me.

I knew you'd pick up on that, and not on the relevance of the rest of the post, I didn't say you said expense, re-read my post. Its really annoying when people cherry pick the bit they want to respond to.

So only the vet that you talk to gives the correct advice? Just because one vet has told you something, does not diminish or negate the advice that I've had from more than one vet, which is why I get my dogs neutered/spayed, not for my own convenience.

I guess the millions of cat owners around the world that use litter trays are wrong then. But you can't have it both ways, surely cat owners who use litter trays for their cats are making sure that their cats aren't being a nuisance to anybody else? So they are ensuring their cats are contained and aren't wandering, negating your argument as to why neutering cats and dogs is different. Its all about reponsible pet ownership, whether its a feline or canine pet you own.

thebullkf

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Most breed standards insist that the tail must be intact for showing and none specify that the tail should be docked , thats for Ireland. In the UK dogs born after a certain date cannot be docked if they are to be shown regardless of breed.

can't be shown if neutered......

Cherry Blossom

thebullkf wrote: »

can't be shown if neutered......

Wasn't addressed in the post I was responding to, but yes, this is also true.

Zapperzy

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Remind me never to go into a house where the cat pisses and sh1ts inside!

Where would you prefer them to go? People give out when their flower beds are used as litter trays, I try to be a responsible owner by keeping my cat contained in my house yet you would never go into my house because a cat pisses and sh1ts in there.

In the last week I have seen 2 undocked boxers, an undocked irish soft coated wheaten terrier pup and an undocked old english sheepdog, all with waggy tails. If I were ever to buy a traditionally docked breed I would always find a breeder who does not dock. Personally I see no need for it other than cosmetic, working dogs are a whole other kettle of fish and it can be debated weather or not docking does actually decrease injuries but for pet dogs I personally don't see a reason for docking.

pokertalk

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Most breed standards insist that the tail must be intact for showing and none specify that the tail should be docked , thats for Ireland. In the UK dogs born after a certain date cannot be docked if they are to be shown regardless of breed.

but in some show dog breeds in england do they have to have a docked tail to show?

Cherry Blossom

pokertalk wrote: »

but in some show dog breeds in england do they have to have a docked tail to show?

No, docking is now illegal in the UK, if you are showing a dog and it is docked it must have been done before the law came in or you can't show the dog. ie you can't dock a dog in England if you wan't to show it.

kaiser sauze

ISDW wrote: »

I knew you'd pick up on that, and not on the relevance of the rest of the post, I didn't say you said expense, re-read my post. Its really annoying when people cherry pick the bit they want to respond to.

So only the vet that you talk to gives the correct advice? Just because one vet has told you something, does not diminish or negate the advice that I've had from more than one vet, which is why I get my dogs neutered/spayed, not for my own convenience.

I guess the millions of cat owners around the world that use litter trays are wrong then. But you can't have it both ways, surely cat owners who use litter trays for their cats are making sure that their cats aren't being a nuisance to anybody else? So they are ensuring their cats are contained and aren't wandering, negating your argument as to why neutering cats and dogs is different. Its all about reponsible pet ownership, whether its a feline or canine pet you own.

So why mention the expense then? I have already addressed the rest of your points. That was the only one that you brought up that was different.

Where did I assert that my vets advice superseded yours?

I know of no cat owners who confine their cats and have them solely use a litter tray. I will be asking any friends of mine if this is what they do, or if they know any cat owners that do. It will be most interesting if I somehow find that in all my life I was unaware of healthy cats being confined.

You may not get your dogs spayed for your own convenience, but the majority of people do. It is almost becoming expected of people.

Anything else you wish to raise?

dahat

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Most breed standards insist that the tail must be intact for showing and none specify that the tail should be docked , thats for Ireland. In the UK dogs born after a certain date cannot be docked if they are to be shown regardless of breed.

is docking totally illegal in england or just for show dogs|?

kaiser sauze

dahat wrote: »

is docking totally illegal in england or just for show dogs|?

Docking is illegal for all dogs in The UK.

dahat

with many exceptions,tail docking can still be done under certain conditions,quite easily exploited