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Treyarch 'gimping' quick scoping...

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Shammy wrote: »
    Of course you can , its not an election, its a poll, and if i had to answer if i wanted it in or not i would say yes , just like another poster who voted the 3rd option. The debate was that someone said the majority wanted rid of quick -scoping , the poll shows here on boards so far that that is not the case.


    If it was a majority then it would be over 50% , last time i checked thats what constituted a majority.
    So you got some handy kills last night , i wouldnt be complaining , i'd be laughing. :)


    So as I just replied to tallon there what would you suggest Treyarch do....

    Leave it in... take it out ... or I dont care?

    Which answer can they bring to the project head? Because in making a game you have to code for EVERYTHING, you ether include it or not there is no I dont care when making a game so they had to only choose based on if it was wanted or not. If we are to gleen their mentality and as such the mentality of the customers (assuming they actualy want to make a popular product in order to make money that is!) we can only count results which would have actually effected the decion in the game making process ie leave it in or take it out. Anything else is simply not applicable to making a game!!!!


    Think of it this way.. you wake in the morn.. you vote to get up... stay in bed... or I dont care.... now if you choose I dont care wtf are you doing for the day????? Because you HAVE to do one or the other! Hence I dont care cannot count

    That being the case the largest number want it out.

    The second largest number dont give a flying one ... which would make for an intresting game review ..----> "what do you expect form this???? ... eh I dont know, the devs flipped a coin to see what to leave in or out"

    The smallest number of people want it in.

    Majorty decision wins!

    *note I highlight DECISION becuase yes or no is a decsion , maybe is not applicable to the very definition making a decision.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Shammy


    hightower1 wrote: »
    So as I just replied to tallon there what would you suggest Treyarch do....

    Leave it in... take it out ... or I dont care?

    Which answer can they bring to the project head? Because in making a game you have to code for EVERYTHING, you ether include it or not there is no I dont care when making a game so they had to only choose based on if it was wanted or not. If we are to gleen their mentality and as such the mentality of the customers (assuming they actualy want to make a popular product in order to make money that is!) we can only count results which would have actually effected the decion in the game making process ie leave it in or take it out. Anything else is simply not applicable to making a game!!!!


    Think of it this way.. you wake in the morn.. you vote to get up... stay in bed... or I dont care.... now if you choose I dont care wtf are you doing for the day????? Because you HAVE to do one or the other! Hence I dont care cannot count

    Those points are irrelevant , with regards to voting for an election and getting up in the morning.Of course you can either vote or not , choose to get up or not.
    Treyarch if they did a survey would have included a third option similar to mine to get a feeling from the community of what they thought about quick-scoping, it wouldnt have been as black and white as for it or against it. I know this because i have completed many survey's for developers and publishers on another site over the years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Shammy wrote: »
    Those points are irrelevant , with regards to voting for an election and getting up in the morning.Of course you can either vote or not , choose to get up or not.
    Treyarch if they did a survey would have included a third option similar to mine to get a feeling from the community of what they thought about quick-scoping, it wouldnt have been as black and white as for it or against it. I know this because i have completed many survey's for developers and publishers on another site over the years.


    Ok...

    Put yourself in a programer in treyarchs position.
    Your in work and the boss says decide to leave in quick scoping or not by the end of the day..

    You gather the data and cme to him with your decision...

    How are you going to say "I dont care" .. he will then ask ok thats a little odd are you going to code for it or not?

    Now whats your answer based on the majority saying I dont care (bear in mind the majority DID NOT vote i dont care on the poll.)

    Also if you ask a woman out for dinner... ]

    Dinner?
    Get lost?
    I dont care?

    What if she says I dont care? Do you make reservations or not?

    The point I am making is that to reach a decision to do something or not you cannot say I dont care.

    To leave QS or not is an active decision seeing as ether way you need to make a consious choice to effect the outcome. Based on that you cannot count I dont care as an out come.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Quick scoping is actually skillful and does take a bit of practice to get the hang of. Lots of people bitching and moaning because they got raped by a quickscoper doesn't change the fact that it's skillful.

    Noobtubes on the other hand...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Quick scoping is actually skillful and does take a bit of practice to get the hang of. Lots of people bitching and moaning because they got raped by a quickscoper doesn't change the fact that it's skillful.

    Noobtubes on the other hand...

    I have never been raped by a QS tbh. Might get killed once or twice every now and then but by no means raped. I dont like it the same as I dont like commando / infinite noob tubes / drop shotters , its just taking advantage of poor coding / managemnet decisions and lucky for me Treyarch feel the same way and have done away with all of them.

    If I get raped by any class it seems to be marathon lightweight folks but you cant be too pissed at that as lng as there is no commando involved.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Shammy


    hightower1 wrote: »
    Ok...

    Put yourself in a programer in treyarchs position.
    Your in work and the boss says decide to leave in quick scoping or not by the end of the day..

    You gather the data and cme to him with your decision...

    How are you going to say "I dont care" .. he will then ask ok thats a little odd are you going to code for it or not?

    Now whats your answer based on the majority saying I dont care (bear in mind the majority DID NOT vote i dont care on the poll.) .

    I'm repeating myself here, If treyarch did infact do a survey (they didnt do a european one, and by judging from machinima vids they didnt do a usa one either) but if they did it would include a third option, ok it mightnt be "i couldnt care less" . but something of the "it doesnt have any affect on me"



    hightower1 wrote: »
    Also if you ask a woman out for dinner... ]

    Dinner?
    Get lost?
    I dont care?

    What if she says I dont care? Do you make reservations or not?

    The point I am making is that to reach a decision to do something or not you cannot say I dont care.

    To leave QS or not is an active decision seeing as ether way you need to make a consious choice to effect the outcome. Based on that you cannot count I dont care as an out come.

    Once again that is irrelevent.

    This whole arguement started on the basis that the majority of the community wanted rid of quick-scoping. Yes
    Once again if treyarch did a survey there WOULD have been a third option, i dont think they did a survey , there is no proof anywhere that they did, so they took it upon themselves to take it out.

    The poll(pole) i made is a survey to find out what the majority think of quick-scoping .

    Its not a case of deciding to get up in the morning or not , getting an answer off of a lady on whether she will dine with you or not, its a survey , think of it like.
    When you travel to work , does the traffic
    A: Really annoy you , somethings going to have to be done.
    b: Traffic is fine it flows freely
    c:Traffic has no impact on me, i dont think about it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    hightower1 wrote: »
    its just taking advantage of poor coding / managemnet decisions and lucky for me Treyarch feel the same way and have done away with all of them.

    Poor coding? LOL you've seen the code the game runs on? Sweet :D

    Management decisions?

    Leaving in one of the most enjoyable mechanisms in CoD is not a poor management decision.

    Having such a smooth transition from hipfire to ADS is what has always set the CoD series apart from other series. Now that it's been expanded to consoles long enough for the kids to get good at it the rest of the kids are whining about it.

    Skill up, and quit yer b1tching.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Shammy wrote: »
    I'm repeating myself here, If treyarch did infact do a survey (they didnt do a european one, and by judging from machinima vids they didnt do a usa one either

    So where would they have done it???? Asia? lol traditionally the home of FPSs there!!! lol.

    The states play more fps than any other nation, Asia play RPGs and Europe prefer sports / racing games. If they were to poll anywhere it would be the states.

    Quick scopers tend to think of themselves as some kind of elite class within a class and as such anyone who can do it seems to want to show it off via youtube. Its called the vocal minority in economics terms. A small group of people see themselves as better and as such become more previlent, from the casual onlooker it appears this small group are larger than they actually are based on the total numbers.

    If you look at the demographic of quick scopers on youtube its generally very serious players posting vids. It makes sense seeing as QS would take time to perfect and as such they want recognition for this... however the amount of people prepared to invest this amount of time in a game is by far and away the minority.
    This is directly tied into the fact that the dev wants to make as much money as possible and that is done by appealing to the larger audience and not the smaller.
    Also as we speak the poll is almost 50/50 now where nearly 50% of people want it gone, the camp saying to leave it in is 25% and the rest dont care.

    You can phrase it how you want but if your asked the question (which I am sure was asked in Treyarchs dev process)... of "how many people actually use or want to quickscope???" no matter how you put it the answer is still only 25%.

    The next question I am sure they would ask is ok how many actually want it gone? ... 50%. And who wont be effected ether way? .... 25%.

    If your a manager its pretty clear that removing quick scoping will have nearly half of your customer base happy as opposed to only a quarter unhappy. Removing it was a smart buiness and gameplay decision and if it was my own business on the line I would do the same thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Enigma IE


    Sorry lads bit confused here!! Have they gimped quick scoping or not?! Or do we have to wait until we get onto MP to verify??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    hightower1 wrote: »
    So where would they have done it???? Asia? lol traditionally the home of FPSs there!!! lol.

    The states play more fps than any other nation, Asia play RPGs and Europe prefer sports / racing games. If they were to poll anywhere it would be the states.

    Quick scopers tend to think of themselves as some kind of elite class within a class and as such anyone who can do it seems to want to show it off via youtube. Its called the vocal minority in economics terms. A small group of people see themselves as better and as such become more previlent, from the casual onlooker it appears this small group are larger than they actually are based on the total numbers.

    If you look at the demographic of quick scopers on youtube its generally very serious players posting vids. It makes sense seeing as QS would take time to perfect and as such they want recognition for this... however the amount of people prepared to invest this amount of time in a game is by far and away the minority.
    This is directly tied into the fact that the dev wants to make as much money as possible and that is done by appealing to the larger audience and not the smaller.
    Also as we speak the poll is almost 50/50 now where nearly 50% of people want it gone, the camp saying to leave it in is 25% and the rest dont care.

    You can phrase it how you want but if your asked the question (which I am sure was asked in Treyarchs dev process)... of "how many people actually use or want to quickscope???" no matter how you put it the answer is still only 25%.

    The next question I am sure they would ask is ok how many actually want it gone? ... 50%. And who wont be effected ether way? .... 25%.

    If your a manager its pretty clear that removing quick scoping will have nearly half of your customer base happy as opposed to only a quarter unhappy. Removing it was a smart buiness and gameplay decision and if it was my own business on the line I would do the same thing.

    What are you waffling on about?


    The only thing that such be questioned is whether or not quickscoping is a broken game mechanic, and no, it is not.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Poor coding? LOL you've seen the code the game runs on? Sweet :D.


    Yes actually, its a simple oversight caused by not encubering the turing speed of an avatar without the scope up and not encumbering the movement speed enough in transit.

    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Management decisions?.
    Yes, magment are there to catch oversights like this before final production.
    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Leaving in one of the most enjoyable mechanisms in CoD is not a poor management decision.

    In your opinion.
    Also by the resuts of the poll ; the results of only a quarter of cod players here too.

    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Skill up, and quit yer b1tching.

    Again... in YOUR opinion. Flagrent provoking like that shows who is the "kid" here. Besides, I need not b1tch as you put it anymore, its gone. End off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Shammy


    Enigma IE wrote: »
    Sorry lads bit confused here!! Have they gimped quick scoping or not?! Or do we have to wait until we get onto MP to verify??

    Thats the thing , there are conflicting reports. I think we'll have to wait and see , one thing we can nearly count on is that if it is in there then it will be harder to do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    What are you waffling on about?


    The only thing that such be questioned is whether or not quickscoping is a broken game mechanic, and no, it is not.


    No the discussion here is whether Treyarch were justified in removing it or not... read the thread.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    hightower1 wrote: »
    In your opinion.
    Also by the resuts of the poll ; the results of only a quarter of cod players here too.

    Despite the fact that it's helped CoD be one of the most popular FPS games since CoD1?

    Right :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,127 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    [In the other thread - I voted to remove it - just my opinion...]

    If they sorted out the long range hit markers which some have complained about I don't think those that use the Sniper rifes would have much to complain about as it is fixing the weapon so that it can be used effectively for what it is - a long range weapon after all...

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Enigma IE


    Shammy wrote: »
    Thats the thing , there are conflicting reports. I think we'll have to wait and see , one thing we can nearly count on is that if it is in there then it will be harder to do.

    Roll on Monday/Tuesday so. As I said on your poll, if they make it more accurate (therefore more difficult), then it's a good feature IMO. Gimping it intentionally would be silly IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,400 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    Shammy wrote: »
    Thats the thing , there are conflicting reports. I think we'll have to wait and see , one thing we can nearly count on is that if it is in there then it will be harder to do.

    I'm sure that people will still figure out how to do it and then post Youtube vids. Once the news spreads then everyone will be at it and we'll be back to square one.

    One interesting thing from this whole debate has been the fact that as has been mentioned, people who hate QS in the game never really talked about it until Treyarch mentioned they were getting rid of it (myself included) :)

    I wonder what other aspects of the game people hate but generally don't talk about. To my mind the boosting, MLC, danger close no falling damage from commando pro etc, all overshadowed QS as game-rage factors but this does show that many people dislike QS. Whether you agree with the Treyarch decision or not doesn't take away from the fact that it's a tactic disliked by many.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    LOL, never read so much **** in all my life....
    The states play more fps than any other nation, Asia play RPGs and Europe prefer sports / racing games. If they were to poll anywhere it would be the states.

    Say what ?



    Also, people that dont care... are usually the ones that dont actually give a **** about quickscoping... and dont go on yapping about it like its some sort of IWIN button, they probably dont snipe very often and therefore they aren't against quickscoping.

    I guess that makes a majority of people that aren't against quickscoping then ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Despite the fact that it's helped CoD be one of the most popular FPS games since CoD1?

    Right :rolleyes:


    By that astounding logic so did boosting does that mean its acceptable?
    It surely did HELP it become popular but was in no stretch of the imagination was it a deciding factor seeing as only a fraction of the customer base actually wanted it back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Shammy


    r3nu4l wrote: »
    I'm sure that people will still figure out how to do it and then post Youtube vids. Once the news spreads then everyone will be at it and we'll be back to square one.

    One interesting thing from this whole debate has been the fact that as has been mentioned, people who hate QS in the game never really talked about it until Treyarch mentioned they were getting rid of it (myself included) :)

    I wonder what other aspects of the game people hate but generally don't talk about. To my mind the boosting, MLC, danger close no falling damage from commando pro etc, all overshadowed QS as game-rage factors but this does show that many people dislike QS. Whether you agree with the Treyarch decision or not doesn't take away from the fact that it's a tactic disliked by many.


    While there are many broken things in mw2, i enjoyed it.
    Boosting , doesnt bother me , i like to hunt them
    Commando once again i think i'm the only one that s not bothered by it.
    Danger close, now constant tubing with dc is one pain in the a55, there is no counter for it only to do it yourself.

    People hate alot of things about the game , where to start , commando , qsing , tubing , dc , akimbo this akimbo that , ump , famas , m16 , lmg's, killstreaks etc etc:D

    People are always going to complain , and because of the amount of perks made available there were more ways to exploit them, hence more complaints.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Creasy_bear


    r3nu4l wrote: »
    I'm sure that people will still figure out how to do it and then post Youtube vids. Once the news spreads then everyone will be at it and we'll be back to square one.

    One interesting thing from this whole debate has been the fact that as has been mentioned, people who hate QS in the game never really talked about it until Treyarch mentioned they were getting rid of it (myself included) :)

    I wonder what other aspects of the game people hate but generally don't talk about. To my mind the boosting, MLC, danger close no falling damage from commando pro etc, all overshadowed QS as game-rage factors but this does show that many people dislike QS. Whether you agree with the Treyarch decision or not doesn't take away from the fact that it's a tactic disliked by many.

    As they have gotten rid of commando, danger close, juggernoob, stopping power, painkiller, drop shotting, tactical insertion for ffa & no spam/spawn tubing, had they left quick scoping in there would be SH1TLOADS of people complaining about it in a few weeks. Like the lad says above there was so many other frustrating things in mw2 ahead of quick scoping it just seemed to have been pushed further down the list.

    I've just re-read that and I'm not sure it made any sense :pac:

    Basically what I'm trying to say is, had they left it alone for black ops........alot more people would be complaining about it in black ops in the coming months


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    hightower1 wrote: »
    By that astounding logic so did boosting does that mean its acceptable?
    It surely did HELP it become popular but was in no stretch of the imagination was it a deciding factor seeing as only a fraction of the customer base actually wanted it back.

    Um, MW are the only CoD games to have boosters, sorry to burst your bubble.

    And boosting isn't a game mechanic, broken or otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    Basically what I'm trying to say is, had they left it alone for black ops........alot more people would be complaining about it in black ops in the coming months

    In fairness... i think second chance will be the next big whinging topic.

    Also, its not like they didnt do anything to make QS'ing harder. They had already said they were removing snipers from benifiting from slight of hand... which almost everyone in the community agreed with. They should have just left it like that and it would have been the same as it was in every other cod game. No1 ever whined about quickscoping in cod4.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Magill wrote: »
    LOL, never read so much **** in all my life....



    Say what ?

    There are any amounts of reports on the subject had you bothered to check. These reports also show MS sales in the states rate higher than any other region - a strong driver of this being the FPS games are rated higher on xbox than any other console / ms being a prodominently american company its their home teritory.

    Likewise with Jap, ps3 / nintendo sales there are top dog based on buying trends in the far east. They have a stong almost xenophobic attitude to "own" brand buying. Its very hard to sell non Asian elsectronics / cars / white goods to an asian market. They also consume more rpg / role playing games than any other market possibly due to the mainstream media cultre there.

    Research the topic if you doubt my statement. What you percive as BS is in actuallity FACT clouded by your own misunderstanding / lack of knowlage on the subject.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Shammy


    hightower1 wrote: »
    There are any amounts of reports on the subject had you bothered to check. These reports also show MS sales in the states rate higher than any other region - a strong driver of this being the FPS games are rated higher on xbox than any other console / ms being a prodominently american company its their home teritory.

    Likewise with Jap, ps3 / nintendo sales there are top dog based on buying trends in the far east. They have a stong almost xenophobic attitude to "own" brand buying. Its very hard to sell non Asian elsectronics / cars / white goods to an asian market. They also consume more rpg / role playing games than any other market possibly due to the mainstream media cultre there.

    Research the topic if you doubt my statement. What you percive as BS is in actuallity FACT clouded by your own misunderstanding / lack of knowlage on the subject.

    As far as i know nintendo is kicking everyones arse.

    Worldwide sales figures

    1. Wii – 70.9 million as of 31 March 2010 (2010 -03-31)[update][30]
    2. Xbox 360 – 44.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)[update][31]
    3. PlayStation 3 – 41.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)[update][32]

    [edit] Japan sales figures

    1. Wii – 9,048,012 as of 17 May 2010 (2010 -05-17)[update][33]
    2. PlayStation 3 – 4,020,563 as of 17 May 2010 (2010 -05-17)[update][33]
    3. Xbox 360 – 900,000 As of 5 February 2010 (2010 -02-05)[update] [34]



    [edit] United Kingdom sales figures

    1. Wii – 8.3 million as of 1 October 2010 (2010 -10-01)[update][36]
    2. Xbox 360 – 3.9 million as of 13 January 2009 (2009 -01-13)[update][37]
    3. PlayStation 3 - 3 million as of 25 January 2010 (2010 -01-25)[update][38]

    [edit] United States sales figures

    1. Wii – 30 million as of 10 August 2010 (2010 -08-10)[update][39]
    2. Xbox 360 – 18.6 million as of 31 December 2009 (2009 -12-31)[update][40]
    3. PlayStation 3 - nearly 12 million as of 14 April 2010 (2010 -04-14)[update][41]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Console_wars#Japan_sales_figures


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Creasy_bear


    Magill wrote: »
    In fairness... ithink second chance will be the next big whinging topic

    Also, its not like they didnt do anything to make QS'ing harder. They had already said they were removing snipers from benifiting from slight of hand... which almost everyone in the community agreed with. They should have just left it like that and it would have been the same as it was in every other cod game. No1 ever whined about quickscoping in cod4.

    Thats because we were too busy whinging about juggernoob, frag x 3 & martydom.

    I've already said that myself about the 2chance but the fact remains........there would have been loads more people complaining about q/s had it been left alone or even left the way it was in COD4. In the last few months I've gone back to COD4 and there is way more lads quickscoping or trying to quick scope because of mw2 i'd say.

    Treyarch have pretty much taking out everything that people were complaining about and to be honest I say fair play to them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭rolexeagle1


    Hutch, Seananners and Sark talk about quickscoping (or lack of) in Black ops:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/shaun0728#p/u/13/fJG0hrut7Bo


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,565 ✭✭✭✭Tallon


    Posted already here, they do make certain good points


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,363 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    I don't get all the controversy over this. Black Ops is a new game, it's not MW2, it sounds like some people just want more MW2 maps than a new game. If you want to quick scope, play MW2.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,195 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    I don't get all the controversy over this. Black Ops is a new game, it's not MW2, it sounds like some people just want more MW2 maps than a new game. If you want to quick scope, play MW2.

    That's a bit of a retarded attitude to have.

    What if they removed assualt rifles?

    Would you say go play MW2 if people wanted assault rifles?


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