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Bouncers-do we really need them?
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I won't say it don't happen, sadly I'm sure it does on the more rare occasion - BUT and I can vouch for this - highly trained people who either by natural character or through training, have adopted a positive or have already ingrained, mental "stability" (for want of a better word), have the uttermost respect for their capabilities and to be quite honest, know that any brash action will lead to the loss of more than just their status and reputation, besides employment, imprisonment and possible family damaging effects.
Long story short, those with enough kop-on, will not allow themselves to get to that state of aggression, nor will they allow themselves to become inebriated to a state that is conducive to the outcome of such a rash act.
They have more respect for themselves, what they could lose and who also it effects.
...And thats absolutely fine. As long as that message is very clear to all when they enter a premises, its a good state to a quiet enjoyable night for all.
Ah but the problem is that I would say at least 1 in 5 bouncers has the power-trip, grr me tough, me kill persona about them. And bouncers are a team. Like I said before, I personally prefer to talk about a fight but if it's my friends' fighting, I won't think twice to back them up (within reason, if it's ten of use and 1 of them, I'm getting a bouncer to stop it quickly). And if one bouncer is quick to kill, even the trained man can't stand by and defuse it with words. So you see, unless it;'s a bunch of guys like that, the ideal bouncer is in a sea of thugs.
One time I had to call a bouncer because a girl was just too drunk, she was practially sleeping on the floor, he came down, i pointed her out and long story short, he told me to go to the bar and say it's a code X (i forget the numbers/phrase). I did that. while i was trying to get to the bar the guy that was her "friend" (groping her unconcious body) said "ah sure she's grand like
you wanna go after me when i'm done, yeah?". I shrugged his arm off me and went to the barmaid, bouncers came down. five minutes later i have to write down what I did/saw. Now here's the funny thing, the guy that stopped me, go fairly cheeky with the bouncer, going so far as to try to shove him away, the bouncer (to his credit) had amazing self-control, he just put his hand on the guys shoulder and said "let me do my job before you get thrown out, i'm here to make sure the customer is okay". The guy is fairly big, could probably pick most people up with one hand. This is the same guy who was part of the four that threw the earlier mentioned guy out.
Now had he of having to deal with some guy swinging punches left and right, do you really expect him to have the same manner and relaxed attitude?0 -
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Its late. Older age and tiredness is kicking in! :pac:google faps wrote: »Been drinking tonight?
Sorry, you can't come in.
(Corrected anyway. Proper grammar use and spelling is something I'm hard on myself about)
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Chaotic_Forces wrote: »Well no, you seem to be misunderstanding me. My basic point now is that it's almost impossible get a well trained team of bouncers, good barstaff and most importantly, a good owner/manager that wants the bouncers to do well.
Most people these day are too busy using the old "toss 'em out, gardaí will back us up" method. I'm sure there exists a whole load of places like you saw (my local I would imagine, in my opinion, includes "good" bouncers).
But do you see my point that most places don't consist of entire teams like that and as such it';s like the genius amongst average people; nobody caters for their way, just the group way/majority way.
I hear what your saying.
Before I finally hit the sack (or the wife hits me for not going LOL), I'll say this.
Professional trained or not, if one does the homework by various methods, its entirely possible to get the right type of people.
The days of ""toss 'em out, Gardaí will back us up method" are dying believe it or not. This is due to a number of reasons too late in the night or long to go into but the short version is "litigation"and more easy access to it by all who wish to try and sue.
You are right that "most places don't consist of entire teams" - if we are talking about your average small to medium "local", they will have at most one, two or three.
If they are the right people, with right training and assessment, they are worth twenty times the presence of fifty untrained goons just standing around waiting for something to "kick off" or hoping it will.
P.S. Nice chatting by the way. 0 -
I hear what your saying.
Before I finally hit the sack (or the wife hits me for not going LOL), I'll say this.
Professional trained or not, if one does the homework by various methods, its entirely possible to get the right type of people.
The days of ""toss 'em out, Gardaí will back us up method" are dying believe it or not. This is due to a number of reason too late in the night or long to go into but the short version is "litigation"and more easy access to it by all who wish to try and sue.
You are right that "most places don't consist of entire teams" - if we are talking about your average small to medium "local", they will have at most one, two or three.
If they are the right people, with right training and assessment, they are worth twenty times the worth of fifty untrained goons just standing around waiting for something to "kick off" or hoping it will.
You said in this thread you're a bit older than me (well you said old age but I'm being nice). Basically, I understand you and I do agree but you have to understand that people my age generally don't give a damn about trying to punch a bouncer or even a garda. By all means, I'm brave to the point I'll defend myself but I'm not insane; if it's a 2/3/4/5 on 1, I'm running to the damn bouncers to get them to deal with it.
However and this cannot be denied, the old "toss 'em out, we "bounce" people method" does exist and will exist. Kids these days take more rash actions and as such, have little to no problem with starting fights, mainly if they're naturally aggressive and then fueled with alcohol = bad night.
It is dying but my local is still a fairly hard bar to a point; if you're on the uh... "dance" floor (I use that loosely) you will be expected to mosh or else kind of not bother anyone. The place plays hard rock/heavy metal, metallica/pantera/iron maiden and so on. Most times the customers just want to have fun with their friends but you will get the unfortunate drunken idiot who things "ooh, metallica, i need to fight" and everyone else is doing their own thing. I've seen it happen. The bouncers let problems be sorted out themselves to a point but they have no qualms about diving in and taking the trash outside (not literally, they generally pull them off the dance floor or 90% of the time tell them on the floor to be nice). The guys in my local can do what you want but... ugh. Let's just say some "young clubs" (clubs for young folks 18-25) aren't filled with nice people. You probably know that most toilets have guys employed by the club to keep an eye of things. It was about 2:40am and I was still in the bathroom having a chat with one of the black guys in there; then some... pri*k who was barely 18 and about 5'5 with about 8 stone on him said to the black fella "i don't like nig*ers, i'll batter you now". The black guy stood up and was about six foot 5, about 20 odd stone and started to laugh and told him to be on his way. I tried to talk your man out of it. The bouncers (as fair as i know, i actually went back and asked the manager the next day) were needed to be called. But in a case like that, i'd have no problem seeing the young guy taking a punch for threating a man just for being black.
So the days of "toss 'em out" are never going to be behind us; just certain pubs change and the young people move on to another place.
But to your point about the few good bouncers being worth many thugs can i ask you this: do you believe that in some cases (where the clientale are generally exepcted to be somewhat rowdy and aggressive) that it is a smart idea to have the few guys that will react the way they are treated? Regardless of it's bouncers or not, like I stated in my local. The four lads are not employed but the locals know them, the regulars know them, the staff know them and they can be called on (usually if someone gets aggressive with a barmaid (that was pretty ugly the nice version was "either get out of here or i will rip you apart limb by limb), though the pri*k was being a pri*k and deservered it).
Do you honestly believe that nice words alone is the best solution?
I mean from what I understand of your point is that: a well trained bouncer should be able to assess and react but at some point, a situation is bascially a violent mess and needs to be violent then defused with words, do you agree?
Edit: actually yes, it's interesting to hear someone's perspective on this that is older than myself (again, not in a bad way but i have no idea of your age but i do assume you've got at least a few years on myself), it's interesting that so much can change in just a few years...
It was nice talking to you too. 0 -
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Chaotic_Forces wrote: »...But to your point about the few good bouncers being worth many thugs can i ask you this: (1) do you believe that in some cases (where the clientale are generally exepcted to be somewhat rowdy and aggressive) that it is a smart idea to have the few guys that will react the way they are treated? Regardless of it's bouncers or not, like I stated in my local. The four lads are not employed but the locals know them, the regulars know them, the staff know them and they can be called on (usually if someone gets aggressive with a barmaid (that was pretty ugly the nice version was "either get out of here or i will rip you apart limb by limb), though the pri*k was being a pri*k and deserved it).
Do you honestly believe that nice words alone is the best solution?
I mean from what I understand of your point is that: a well trained bouncer should be able to assess and react but at some point, a situation is basically a violent mess and needs to be violent then defused with words, do you agree?
Edit: actually yes, it's interesting to hear someone's perspective on this that is older than myself (again, not in a bad way but i have no idea of your age but i do assume you've got at least a few years on myself), it's interesting that so much can change in just a few years...
It was nice talking to you too.
(1) One the first bolded part (if I have read it right!) No, I don't believe - yes, I know absolutely, that its more effective if done right. I have seen operations where the its a lot more effective. No owner, manager of any decency wants a group of security staff that is purely going to react only with violence* and nothing else. (a) From a purely legal aspect first, the "victim" as they will make themselves out to be later (in court), can claim that although their drunken antics were wrong - the re-actions of the bouncers were too extreme for the situation they were in. (b) from an aspect of reputation, a place can quickly gain a name for itself as a place where one can expect nothing but trouble and we all know places like that - the ones that are known where always "something kicks off". (c) From a damage to property and persons in the area at the time, it can be a very serious further area of damage done, injuries received, litigation resulting and fines/jail terms handed down. (d) from the aspect of reacting to violence ...with equal violence, I give a simple situation. What if a drunk plonker picks up a chair and starts swinging it? do you really wants a bouncer reacting the same way and he/she pick up one and starts swinging that one back too at his opposite, in a small or/and tight place with crowded customers feet away? Someone is going to get injured and not just possibly the two direct main people involved!
In all the above mentioned there is also an under-riding factor from manager/owner point of view too. The drinks licence.
If a place is consistently a source of trouble and the staff there are consistently found to be a problem and/or even part of the problem again and again, any judge can revoke a premises drinks licence from a property. When that happens, game over. Everyone's unemployed!
I know if one place in Co Louth that over 5 months alone, had 67 cases of assaults carried out by "bouncers", their actions were that bad that it got to court stage with 67 cases.
Needless to say, the judge eventually said "hang on a minute, this is too much..." and revoked the owners licence to supply drink, for clearly he was unable to control his property and his staff that were supposed to be acting with professionalism - but were not. They were in fact just hired untrained thugs in suits.
(2) On your second (bolded) point above: Nice words are never the full solution in some cases. On speech aspect alone, a doorman doesn't have to be "nice" in his words - just use the right ones and with the right tone and timing (but thats another whole topic of training and techniques).
NO situation should ever be just "a violent mess" and if anyone is entering that situation and seeing it only as that and reacting equally, there are very much in the wrong job and the wrong person to be doing it.
A bouncer certainly does NOT need to be violent* in order to solve a situation. A properly trained security person can use hands-on methods (simple example: locks and holds) to take down a person WITHOUT having to resort to outright equal violence.
If the security HAS to react with more aggressive methods, there are defensive methods/alternatives of fighting (simple example: parrying and blocking, then applying take-down techniques) that can be applied in control, not offensive methods that are all too often just used.
I have been in properties from Ireland to America and Europe where professional licensed security operated. Everyone knew these people/staff were serious in their duty and were dedicated to upholding their clean image of professionalism.
Such places had a "Zero Tolerance" policy alone. If you started trouble and lashed out, without question, the owner/manager collected the video evidence (if any), statements from all involved and evidence of damage done to persons and property - then charges were pressed. No "ifs" or "buts".
Initially, there was some work involved but very quickly the customers sussed that if they were to cause trouble, their actions would not just be met by being chucked out (till the following week!) with a few bruises via an aggressive bouncer but that they would be treating themselves to a definite criminal record and the management was 100% serious in its duty to ensure the safety of its fellow other customers and staff.
Such places QUICKLY - VERY QUICKLY became places where it known that it was from then on shortly after, very safe to have a drink in, have fun in and in fact more older customers started returning to such places - where before they had stayed away in numbers due to avoiding places where there was a more "youthful attendance" seen and attached possibility of troubling situations that was more often (than not) seen (wrongly in some cases) to come with them.
* Violence: There is a difference between equal aggressive "violence" and hands-on methods to pacify and take down an opponent.0 -
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On the few occasions that I do go in to bars these days, a bouncer at the door is a sign saying "go somewhere else". If it's up to me to decide, that's what we do. If they actually need a bouncer, it's not the kind of establishment I choose to frequent. If they don't need a bouncer, does he come free, or are the drinks priced accordingly?
The last time a bouncer told me I wasn't dressed nicely enough to go in, I said "OK, bye", started walking off, and he came after me to say "no, it doesn't matter, come on in!"
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.
— Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut
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