Bouncers-do we really need them?

google faps · 01-10-2010 12:10am

Biggins wrote:

There was no training with the secuity as ingards even to basic first aid.
As "bouscers" are usually the first responders to acts of aaggression and/or accident on licenced property, its only proper and recognised now that part of proper security training, includes basic first aid.

Been drinking tonight?
Sorry, you can't come in.

Chaotic_Forces · 01-10-2010 12:12am

Biggins wrote: »

No, I speak of what I see practised by professionals.
I certainly don't argue over "visions" - I state with knowledge and experiences where proper methods were and still are used - professionally - by proper;y trained staff.

Its sounds unfortunate what you see what your eyes. I have seen it too at time.
That said, I have also been many a time a better side in practicality and use, proper timing and techniques which eventually lead to much lesser aggressive outcomes.

Well no, you seem to be misunderstanding me. My basic point now is that it's almost impossible get a well trained team of bouncers, good barstaff and most importantly, a good owner/manager that wants the bouncers to do well.

Most people these day are too busy using the old "toss 'em out, gardaí will back us up" method. I'm sure there exists a whole load of places like you saw (my local I would imagine, in my opinion, includes "good" bouncers).
But do you see my point that most places don't consist of entire teams like that and as such it';s like the genius amongst average people; nobody caters for their way, just the group way/majority way.

Biggins · 01-10-2010 12:14am

google faps wrote: »

Been drinking tonight?
Sorry, you can't come in.

Its late. Older age and tiredness is kicking in! :pac:
(Corrected anyway. Proper grammar use and spelling is something I'm hard on myself about)

Biggins · 01-10-2010 12:21am

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Well no, you seem to be misunderstanding me. My basic point now is that it's almost impossible get a well trained team of bouncers, good barstaff and most importantly, a good owner/manager that wants the bouncers to do well.

Most people these day are too busy using the old "toss 'em out, gardaí will back us up" method. I'm sure there exists a whole load of places like you saw (my local I would imagine, in my opinion, includes "good" bouncers).
But do you see my point that most places don't consist of entire teams like that and as such it';s like the genius amongst average people; nobody caters for their way, just the group way/majority way.

I hear what your saying.

Before I finally hit the sack (or the wife hits me for not going LOL), I'll say this.
Professional trained or not, if one does the homework by various methods, its entirely possible to get the right type of people.

The days of ""toss 'em out, Gardaí will back us up method" are dying believe it or not. This is due to a number of reasons too late in the night or long to go into but the short version is "litigation"and more easy access to it by all who wish to try and sue.

You are right that "most places don't consist of entire teams" - if we are talking about your average small to medium "local", they will have at most one, two or three.
If they are the right people, with right training and assessment, they are worth twenty times the presence of fifty untrained goons just standing around waiting for something to "kick off" or hoping it will.

P.S. Nice chatting by the way.

Chaotic_Forces · 01-10-2010 12:39am

Biggins wrote: »

I hear what your saying.

Before I finally hit the sack (or the wife hits me for not going LOL), I'll say this.
Professional trained or not, if one does the homework by various methods, its entirely possible to get the right type of people.

The days of ""toss 'em out, Gardaí will back us up method" are dying believe it or not. This is due to a number of reason too late in the night or long to go into but the short version is "litigation"and more easy access to it by all who wish to try and sue.

You are right that "most places don't consist of entire teams" - if we are talking about your average small to medium "local", they will have at most one, two or three.
If they are the right people, with right training and assessment, they are worth twenty times the worth of fifty untrained goons just standing around waiting for something to "kick off" or hoping it will.

You said in this thread you're a bit older than me (well you said old age but I'm being nice

). Basically, I understand you and I do agree but you have to understand that people my age generally don't give a damn about trying to punch a bouncer or even a garda. By all means, I'm brave to the point I'll defend myself but I'm not insane; if it's a 2/3/4/5 on 1, I'm running to the damn bouncers to get them to deal with it.
However and this cannot be denied, the old "toss 'em out, we "bounce" people method" does exist and will exist. Kids these days take more rash actions and as such, have little to no problem with starting fights, mainly if they're naturally aggressive and then fueled with alcohol = bad night.

It is dying but my local is still a fairly hard bar to a point; if you're on the uh... "dance" floor (I use that loosely) you will be expected to mosh or else kind of not bother anyone. The place plays hard rock/heavy metal, metallica/pantera/iron maiden and so on. Most times the customers just want to have fun with their friends but you will get the unfortunate drunken idiot who things "ooh, metallica, i need to fight" and everyone else is doing their own thing. I've seen it happen. The bouncers let problems be sorted out themselves to a point but they have no qualms about diving in and taking the trash outside (not literally, they generally pull them off the dance floor or 90% of the time tell them on the floor to be nice). The guys in my local can do what you want but... ugh. Let's just say some "young clubs" (clubs for young folks 18-25) aren't filled with nice people. You probably know that most toilets have guys employed by the club to keep an eye of things. It was about 2:40am and I was still in the bathroom having a chat with one of the black guys in there; then some... pri*k who was barely 18 and about 5'5 with about 8 stone on him said to the black fella "i don't like nig*ers, i'll batter you now". The black guy stood up and was about six foot 5, about 20 odd stone and started to laugh and told him to be on his way. I tried to talk your man out of it. The bouncers (as fair as i know, i actually went back and asked the manager the next day) were needed to be called. But in a case like that, i'd have no problem seeing the young guy taking a punch for threating a man just for being black.

So the days of "toss 'em out" are never going to be behind us; just certain pubs change and the young people move on to another place.

But to your point about the few good bouncers being worth many thugs can i ask you this: do you believe that in some cases (where the clientale are generally exepcted to be somewhat rowdy and aggressive) that it is a smart idea to have the few guys that will react the way they are treated? Regardless of it's bouncers or not, like I stated in my local. The four lads are not employed but the locals know them, the regulars know them, the staff know them and they can be called on (usually if someone gets aggressive with a barmaid (that was pretty ugly the nice version was "either get out of here or i will rip you apart limb by limb), though the pri*k was being a pri*k and deservered it).
Do you honestly believe that nice words alone is the best solution?
I mean from what I understand of your point is that: a well trained bouncer should be able to assess and react but at some point, a situation is bascially a violent mess and needs to be violent then defused with words, do you agree?

Edit: actually yes, it's interesting to hear someone's perspective on this that is older than myself (again, not in a bad way but i have no idea of your age but i do assume you've got at least a few years on myself), it's interesting that so much can change in just a few years...
It was nice talking to you too.

Rabies · 01-10-2010 5:32am

McNulty32 wrote: »

Bit of a bugbear of mine is bouncers.

Was out last night, spur the moment job, went down to local late bar, got to door and was stopped by this short arsed ugly baldy doorman, who gave the usual 'where ya coming from', 'ya been here again' in a really aggressive manner, then asked my mate to take his hat off so he could have a look at him, I turned around and said why the **** does it matter what he looks like under his hat? he got smart with me and said he wanted to see if he seen him before, then made a remark that he'd too much hair and should get it cut, I replied that least he had hair unlike his baldy chrome dome, he laughed and in we walked.

It was a moderately busy night, me and the mate just sat there quiet drinking afew pints, all the while I was watching the bouncer in action, walking around randomly chatting up women in front their boyfriends, annoying people who didnt want talk to him, for someone suppose to keep tension and hassle to a minimal he was doing the opposite.

Got me thinking ,do we really need bouncers? like other then asking kids for their passports, have they any useful purpose, in most cases they cause more trouble then prevent, if there is trouble shouldnt the over paid Gardai not be called to stop it rather then these power tripping apes?

If you acted liked a cheeky sh!t at my door like you have explained, you wouldn't have gotten in. People like you are pain in arse. We'd rather not have your money. Less of you makes more enjoyable customers and a better environment inside.

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Also, what is this WE craic about.

The pub's hire them to keep underage people out and stop fights, they are covering their own áss from lawsuits, it's not a WE, it's a THEM.

Yup. For our safety and yours.

Biggins · 01-10-2010 8:29am

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

...But to your point about the few good bouncers being worth many thugs can i ask you this: (1) do you believe that in some cases (where the clientale are generally exepcted to be somewhat rowdy and aggressive) that it is a smart idea to have the few guys that will react the way they are treated? Regardless of it's bouncers or not, like I stated in my local. The four lads are not employed but the locals know them, the regulars know them, the staff know them and they can be called on (usually if someone gets aggressive with a barmaid (that was pretty ugly the nice version was "either get out of here or i will rip you apart limb by limb), though the pri*k was being a pri*k and deserved it).
Do you honestly believe that nice words alone is the best solution?
I mean from what I understand of your point is that: a well trained bouncer should be able to assess and react but at some point, a situation is basically a violent mess and needs to be violent then defused with words, do you agree?

Edit: actually yes, it's interesting to hear someone's perspective on this that is older than myself (again, not in a bad way but i have no idea of your age but i do assume you've got at least a few years on myself), it's interesting that so much can change in just a few years...
It was nice talking to you too.

(1) One the first bolded part (if I have read it right!) No, I don't believe - yes, I know absolutely, that its more effective if done right. I have seen operations where the its a lot more effective. No owner, manager of any decency wants a group of security staff that is purely going to react only with violence* and nothing else. (a) From a purely legal aspect first, the "victim" as they will make themselves out to be later (in court), can claim that although their drunken antics were wrong - the re-actions of the bouncers were too extreme for the situation they were in. (b) from an aspect of reputation, a place can quickly gain a name for itself as a place where one can expect nothing but trouble and we all know places like that - the ones that are known where always "something kicks off". (c) From a damage to property and persons in the area at the time, it can be a very serious further area of damage done, injuries received, litigation resulting and fines/jail terms handed down. (d) from the aspect of reacting to violence ...with equal violence, I give a simple situation. What if a drunk plonker picks up a chair and starts swinging it? do you really wants a bouncer reacting the same way and he/she pick up one and starts swinging that one back too at his opposite, in a small or/and tight place with crowded customers feet away? Someone is going to get injured and not just possibly the two direct main people involved!

In all the above mentioned there is also an under-riding factor from manager/owner point of view too. The drinks licence.
If a place is consistently a source of trouble and the staff there are consistently found to be a problem and/or even part of the problem again and again, any judge can revoke a premises drinks licence from a property. When that happens, game over. Everyone's unemployed!
I know if one place in Co Louth that over 5 months alone, had 67 cases of assaults carried out by "bouncers", their actions were that bad that it got to court stage with 67 cases.
Needless to say, the judge eventually said "hang on a minute, this is too much..." and revoked the owners licence to supply drink, for clearly he was unable to control his property and his staff that were supposed to be acting with professionalism - but were not. They were in fact just hired untrained thugs in suits.

(2) On your second (bolded) point above: Nice words are never the full solution in some cases. On speech aspect alone, a doorman doesn't have to be "nice" in his words - just use the right ones and with the right tone and timing (but thats another whole topic of training and techniques).
NO situation should ever be just "a violent mess" and if anyone is entering that situation and seeing it only as that and reacting equally, there are very much in the wrong job and the wrong person to be doing it.
A bouncer certainly does NOT need to be violent* in order to solve a situation. A properly trained security person can use hands-on methods (simple example: locks and holds) to take down a person WITHOUT having to resort to outright equal violence.
If the security HAS to react with more aggressive methods, there are defensive methods/alternatives of fighting (simple example: parrying and blocking, then applying take-down techniques) that can be applied in control, not offensive methods that are all too often just used.

I have been in properties from Ireland to America and Europe where professional licensed security operated. Everyone knew these people/staff were serious in their duty and were dedicated to upholding their clean image of professionalism.
Such places had a "Zero Tolerance" policy alone. If you started trouble and lashed out, without question, the owner/manager collected the video evidence (if any), statements from all involved and evidence of damage done to persons and property - then charges were pressed. No "ifs" or "buts".

Initially, there was some work involved but very quickly the customers sussed that if they were to cause trouble, their actions would not just be met by being chucked out (till the following week!) with a few bruises via an aggressive bouncer but that they would be treating themselves to a definite criminal record and the management was 100% serious in its duty to ensure the safety of its fellow other customers and staff.
Such places QUICKLY - VERY QUICKLY became places where it known that it was from then on shortly after, very safe to have a drink in, have fun in and in fact more older customers started returning to such places - where before they had stayed away in numbers due to avoiding places where there was a more "youthful attendance" seen and attached possibility of troubling situations that was more often (than not) seen (wrongly in some cases) to come with them.

* Violence: There is a difference between equal aggressive "violence" and hands-on methods to pacify and take down an opponent.

BigDuffman · 01-10-2010 9:17am

Points are getting very sticky here! But a good door man should be able to talk down a potential aggressor first. If a crew is well versed and knows how each other man on the security team works they compliment each other. Idealy, on a door you will have the lips and the brawn.

The lips is a jovial and approachable chappy who can defuse tensions on the door and redirect aggression ("Listen lads, I'd like to let you in..but the management blah blah come back on friday, I'll sort you out with a pass etc").

Then you have the 6.4ft 20 stone brawn who's ready to wade in when the time is right.

Good cop, bad cop routines are used as are very swift aggressive changes in tone of voice and stature in order to disorientate and take people off guard.

A good bouncer wont go mental with fists and take downs as a first choice, in fact he wont last very long in a club if he does so its in his benefeit to not be pulverising punters. (You need to remember that nightclub management don't actually want door staff smashing up customers...they tend to get rid of people like that quite quickly).

Other situations necessitate getting stuck in and cleaning house.

Unfortunately with increase of faceless agencies running security companies now adays some clubs have different lads on the security team every week from a pool of agency lads. That means you don't know the guy standing next to you on the door and how he will react. Which is dangerous for all involved.

If you have an issue with a doorman don't go back and start spitting wait till your sober think about what happened ask your mates then if you feel wronged. Blast an email off to the club management.

skregs · 01-10-2010 9:58am

I went to a girls 21st, she'd booked a function room. She showed up with her boyfriend and the bouncers let her in first, held the bf back to "check his ID" then said he wasn't coming in. He wasnt drunk, wasnt aggressive, absolutely no reason for it.

Seen this happen a good few times now.
I've seen bouncers who wont let girls in unless they flash them or give the bouncer their numbers.

Ive been turned away once by a bouncer "for being too drunk" at 9.30 with no drink on me at all.

In one particular club, Ive had a bouncer attack me for "standing too close to him" and on a different night had a bouncer there try to push me down the stairs for walking too slowly! (Both of them were 6'6 Eastern European steroid freaks, you know the type)

There's clubs I wont go to purely because of the hyper-aggressive pricks on the door looking for fights or trying to humiliate you

BUT

99% of the bouncers I've dealt with are grand, and if you aren't a drunken scumbag, they're pretty sound.

BigDuffman · 01-10-2010 11:09am

Also with regards to doormen letting girls in ahead of fellas...think of it logicaly. What percentage of girls start fights when drunk compared to fellas. Most wimminz when locked tend to teeter around like newborn giraffes on heels, then have a cry after a few too many gins. As opposed to some boozed up chung fella who wants nothing more than to break a bottle of bulmers over someones head because they were looking at them funny.

So women to tend pass by a lot easier without being stopped for that reason. But yeah sure bouncers can be human and treat hot girls differently. Where I'm working at the moment has a smoking hot secretary which does wonders. As delivery drivers and customers tend not to shout at pretty girls!

goat2 · 01-10-2010 12:22pm

where did the name BOUNCER come from, it sounds rough, and anyone on these doors should be security, properly trained to look after the wellbeing of all, first aid should also be thought, that name bouncer is just not right,

bnt · 01-10-2010 12:47pm

On the few occasions that I do go in to bars these days, a bouncer at the door is a sign saying "go somewhere else". If it's up to me to decide, that's what we do. If they actually need a bouncer, it's not the kind of establishment I choose to frequent. If they don't need a bouncer, does he come free, or are the drinks priced accordingly?

The last time a bouncer told me I wasn't dressed nicely enough to go in, I said "OK, bye", started walking off, and he came after me to say "no, it doesn't matter, come on in!"

the purple tin · 01-10-2010 2:31pm

goat2 wrote: »

where did the name BOUNCER come from, it sounds rough, and anyone on these doors should be security, properly trained to look after the wellbeing of all, first aid should also be thought, that name bouncer is just not right,

He was the dog on neighbours :P

UrbanSea · 02-10-2010 12:46pm

I had another good encounter with 2 sound bouncers the other night. Was going into Karma in Galway and I was fairly sauced,but still standing and speaking. I usually have an answer prepared for when I'm asked how much I've had to drink but didn't that night.
Bouncer:'Alright there,(checking my i.d and looks at me),How much have you had to drink?
Me:(Trying to think fast and failing miserably),Ah to be honest,about 8 or 9 cans.
Bouncer:(Turns to his bouncer pal and both are laughing) Well at he was honest,go on.

Haha I lawled.

Logical Fallacy · 02-10-2010 12:50pm

McNulty32 wrote: »

Have I not the right to tell this person with no authority what I think of his comments?

He does have authority though, he is hired by the venue to enforce door policy. You are not legally entitled to drink somewhere just because you want to.

You seem to have a few things mixed up there budrick.

baltimore sun · 02-10-2010 2:04pm

Worked in a good few pubs over the years before finally gettin out of it and in my experience, no bouncers are not needed. In most cases they're clowns on an ego trip and the need breed are so messed up on growth hormones for their weight training that they aren't stable enough human beings to be allowed to "control" crowds of people.

Logical Fallacy · 02-10-2010 2:25pm

baltimore sun wrote: »

Worked in a good few pubs over the years before finally gettin out of it and in my experience, no bouncers are not needed. In most cases they're clowns on an ego trip and the need breed are so messed up on growth hormones for their weight training that they aren't stable enough human beings to be allowed to "control" crowds of people.

You are aware that growth hormones are a very expensive and beyond the fiscal reach of the average working man.

I think you may have meant steroids, and even then there is very little clinical research to back up the myth of "roid rage" or a massive effect on mood.

Finally, out of interest, did you work in any pubs with no bouncers, and in what kind of area's?

ILA · 02-10-2010 4:21pm

Yes, the serve a very useful function of shielding other patrons from people such as the OP.

Obviously there are issues with training, and fact that anyone who completes it can get a license, which obviously leads to oversupply and drives down wages, and hence the quality of the employees in many cases.

I've only ever had one problem with a Door Supervisor who refused entry but it was pretty late. He has since been sacked after he was charged with assaulting two young patrons deliberately in area where there was no CCTV coverage adjacent to the venue.

So in conclusion, the stereotype of the untrained, unlicensed brute who gets away with beating young fellas is long gone in most areas due to the accessibility of Tort Law (negligence, battery, assault) solicitors and the willingness of the Gardai to prosecute those who engage in such practices.

jackiebaron · 04-10-2010 9:37am

google faps wrote: »

They contribute peace of mind borne out from the knowledge that they spent a considerable amount of time being trained in how to do their job and the attitude they should present to the public.
More than the two hours in a dank room learning how to put a wrist lock on someone while trying to sell coke to some chick in an effort to get her to sleep with him.

Doing something which helps retain the status quo of, or improves, society.
Certainly not standing on a door refusing someone who is wearing runners from a ****e nightclub.

A football referee promotes fairness and impartiality. Good concepts for a kid to learn.
An undertaker buries our dead thus preventing corpses from piling up and disease spreading. They also, in hard times, take care of the funeral arrangements when loved ones may not want, or be able, to.
Psychiatrists help people with grief, depression, anxiety and so on. Pretty self explanatory.
Babysitters provide peace of mind for parents if and when they need to attend something where the kids would be bored, troublesome or out of place.

I did elaborate.
I don't pull out my cock in nightclubs.
I don't behave like a neanderthal.
I don't drink ale.

KTHXBAI.

You stated quite emphatically that bouncers make no contribution to society yet you laud the achievements of a babysitter who provides peace of mind to ONE, maybe TWO parents. That's two persons. In the same vain you denigrate doormen as having spent two hours learning how to wrestle somebody out of the club and you accuse them of drug-dealing in order to get laid. This is a rather sweeping statement and smacks of you having had a bad experience with a bouncer and are now tarring them all with the same brush. There's a word for this type of stereotyping....xenophobia.

Again with regards to the professions I listed and what their contribution was you seemed keen to point how much "peace of mind" they all provided. Well if I'm in a night club and there are doormen at the entrance then I am fairly confident that scumbags are not going to be allowed in. Once inside when I see a bouncer break up a brawl and eject the two parties then once again I find it relieving and reassuring. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder to see if some bastard is trying to pick a scrap with me just because he's coked off his head and loves causing trouble. To say that bouncers provide nothing of any value is puerile and glib.

poisonated · 04-10-2010 10:19am

Some people get into it for the wrong reason. There are good bouncers out there. Some, as has most likely being said, are just p.issed off with the world and want to take their anger out on young people. The saddest thing is when a bouncer is around 40 and he acts like he is 22. He might go around insulting 18 year olds and attempt to rise them. Complete mid life crisis.
There are some good bouncers. These might get into it for the right reason. Perhaps their s.ister was raped in a club and doesn't want to see this happen to other people. Perhaps they got severely beaten up in a night club and wants to prevent this happening to someone else. These are the bouncers I respect and these are the type of bouncers that we need. We don't need people on power trips.

clived2 · 04-10-2010 10:47am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEFPivm_0jI

Bouncers-do we really need them?

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