Prostitution in Ireland.

Millicent

MazG wrote: »

Yes, of course it's to do with my morals. I don't deny that. That's what any debate about whether something is right or wrong will come down to.

I maintain that prostitution has close links with human trafficking, coercion, violence, drug-abuse, organised crime, transmission of sexual diseases and the objectification of humans as sex-objects and for all these reasons (and possibily more that I can't think of right now) I think prostitution is wrong. And I have never seen any evidence that total legalisation and regulation of prostitution has solved or even ameliorated these problems.

It does have a lot of those links but more so when it comes to illegal prostitution. Legalised prostitution is regulated and the workers subjected to regular health checks, legal checks and trafficking is a no-no.

MazG

drkpower wrote: »

Very true; but your morals should have nothing to do with whether the activities, in private, of two other adult individuals, are criminalised.

Not so. The overall attitudes and morals of a society decide what is and what isn't legal. But right now, in this country, my morals appear to co-incide with society's to a greater degree than yours because solicitation, pimping and running a brothel are all illegal.

Kold

You don't pay her to stay, you pay her to get the f*ck out afterwards.

MazG

Millicent wrote: »

It does have a lot of those links but more so when it comes to illegal prostitution. Legalised prostitution is regulated and the workers subjected to regular health checks, legal checks and trafficking is a no-no.

I see that it sounds plausible that legalised prostitution would be better. But I have yet to be presented with any evidence that this is so

rossie1977

MazG wrote: »

I maintain that prostitution has close links with human trafficking, coercion, violence, drug-abuse, organised crime, transmission of sexual diseases and the objectification of humans as sex-objects and for all these reasons (and possibily more that I can't think of right now) I think prostitution is wrong. And I have never seen any evidence that total legalisation and regulation of prostitution has solved or even ameliorated these problems.

nobody is saying that legalising prostitution would make everything fine and dandy, it won't, but legalising it would make things clearer for everyone

atm you have hundreds maybe thousands of girls working in ireland, many are making thousands of euro each week (untaxed), most of these girls i bet are also drawing social welfare, so there is the first benefit straight away

second legalised brothels will mean an almost total elimination of violence against prostitutes, illegal protitutes are an easy target and many obviously cannot report crimes to police for fear they will be arrested

just a tidbit is sex the only thing thats legal to give away for free, but illegal to charge for it?? i can't think of anything else falling into this bracket

sbkenn

What is the point of having something illegal if it can't be effectively policed anyway ?
If there is a demand, someone will supply. If it is illegal to supply, then it makes criminals of the supplier ... and the violence, huge profits, and gang culture that will inevitably surround it. Legalise it, and keep it as safe(clean/pure) as you can ... maybe even tax it.

Millicent

MazG wrote: »

Not so. The overall attitudes and morals of a society decide what is and what isn't legal. But right now, in this country, my morals appear to co-incide with society's to a greater degree than yours because solicitation, pimping and running a brothel are all illegal.

The laws of society do not depend on the popular viewpoint. Otherwise, homosexuality would be illegal to appease those who don't agree with it.

MazG wrote: »

I see that it sounds plausible that legalised prostitution would be better. But I have yet to be presented with any evidence that this is so

There is a lot of research to support this. I haven't the time to root it out but have a Google -- there are statistics which bear it out.

Procasinator

Millicent wrote: »

I wouldn't say that's true. If women are as picky as they are often made out to be here, why would gay women have lower standards than straight women?

A higher % of eligible partners should lead to a higher success rate for the "average" person. Regardless of gender.

I would think a lesbian going to a lesbian bar would increase chances of finding a than say an 25-year old guy going to say a bar that was popular with that age group.

Much like going to a singles night would probably increase your chances.

Just as a disclaimer: I'm obviously not talking exact science here and being anecdotal.

MazG

rossie1977 wrote: »

nobody is saying that legalising prostitution would make everything fine and dandy, it won't, but legalising it would make things clearer for everyone

atm you have hundreds maybe thousands of girls working in ireland, many are making thousands of euro each week (untaxed), most of these girls i bet are also drawing social welfare, so there is the first benefit straight away

second legalised brothels will mean an almost total elimination of violence against prostitutes, illegal protitutes are an easy target and many obviously cannot report crimes to police for fear they will be arrested

just a tidbit is sex the only thing thats legal to give away for free, but illegal to charge for it?? i can't think of anything else falling into this bracket

Even it it were demonstrably true that legalising prostitution would end (or minimise) the violence, drug-abuse, human trafficking, coercion, organised crime element of it, we would still be left with the objectification of humans as sex objects. The notion of sexual gratification as a right or entitlement does not sit well with me and I would still have a problem with prostitution and I would still judge someone who paid for sex

drkpower

MazG wrote: »

Not so. The overall attitudes and morals of a society decide what is and what isn't legal. But right now, in this country, my morals appear to co-incide with society's to a greater degree than yours because solicitation, pimping and running a brothel are all illegal.

With regard to the activities, in private, of consenting adults, that is partially untrue in one respect and completely untrue in another:

1. Prostituition is one of the very few remaining private activities between consenting adults that remain criminalised; and even the act of payting for sex that underlies prostitution, is not illegal - it is perfectly legal!

2. The prevailing social & moral norms should never form the basis for criminalising the private consensual activities of individuals which do not affect, in any appreciable way, the lives of others; i shouldn't need to explain the reasons for that; Irish history is littered with the injustices of that approach.

I'lll just ask you one question: if, for some unforseen reason, contraception once again became morally and socially repugnant, would you accept its crtiminalisation?

Oh and finally, I find prostitution pretty distasteful and repugnant to me, but I dont think 2 people who find it ok should be crimianlised for engaging in it.

Procasinator

rossie1977 wrote: »

just a tidbit is sex the only thing thats legal to give away for free, but illegal to charge for it?? i can't think of anything else falling into this bracket

There is plenty of things that are released under specific non-comerical licenses (software, creative arts, etc) that fall under the same bracket.

Millicent

Procasinator wrote: »

A higher % of eligible partners should lead to a higher success rate for the "average" person. Regardless of gender.

I would think a lesbian going to a lesbian bar would increase chances of finding a than say an 25-year old guy going to say a bar that was popular with that age group.

Much like going to a singles night would probably increase your chances.

Just as a disclaimer: I'm obviously not talking exact science here and being anecdotal.

There's a greater percentage of women in straight bars for straight men. Proportionately, I'd imagine it evens out. Also, that point kind of presumes that gay bars are just pick-up joints. That's not necessarily the case.

Even so, it still doesn't account for why lesbian prostitutes are unheard of. Not all people who use prostitutes do so because nothing else is available.

28064212

MazG wrote: »

Yes, of course it's to do with my morals. I don't deny that. That's what any debate about whether something is right or wrong will come down to.

I maintain that prostitution has close links with human trafficking, coercion, violence, drug-abuse, organised crime, transmission of sexual diseases and the objectification of humans as sex-objects and for all these reasons (and possibily more that I can't think of right now) I think prostitution is wrong. And I have never seen any evidence that total legalisation and regulation of prostitution has solved or even ameliorated these problems.

What is your take on this scenario: a woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why?

Trafficking is illegal, organised crime is illegal, violence is illegal, coercion is illegal. Why do we need to criminalise prostitutes where none of those are involved?

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

Even it it were demonstrably true that legalising prostitution would end (or minimise) the violence, drug-abuse, human trafficking, coercion, organised crime element of it, we would still be left with the objectification of humans as sex objects. The notion of sexual gratification as a right or entitlement does not sit well with me and I would still have a problem with prostitution and I would still judge someone who paid for sex

So on a philosophical point you will allow trafficked women to suffer? I would judge someone who holds that position.

rossie1977

MazG wrote: »

the objectification of humans as sex objects.

am i to assume you have a dim view of porn as well??

I would still judge someone who paid for sex

would you judge someone who kept buying a girl drinks at a bar for hours, getting her so drunk she is barely able to stand, taking her home and having sex with her??

Monty Burnz

rossie1977 wrote: »

would you judge someone who kept buying a girl drinks at a bar for hours, getting her so drunk she is barely able to stand, taking her home and having sex with her??

No, I believe that we established earlier that MazG holds that such a 'casual encounter' is acceptable. (apologies if it was someone else who said that)

MazG

Millicent wrote: »

The laws of society do not depend on the popular viewpoint. Otherwise, homosexuality would be illegal to appease those who don't agree with it.

But it was illegal when most people were opposed to it. In this country, most people are not opposed to homosexuality. Some are, but most aren't. That's why the law was changed

Millicent wrote: »

There is a lot of research to support this. I haven't the time to root it out but have a Google -- there are statistics which bear it out.

Thanks, I'll have a look later on. To be honest, my personal experience of the issue is fairly limited (would you believe! ). But from my time in NZ and Australia (where prostitution is legal - brothals and all!) I am still of the impression that many of the people there involved in prostitution (pimps, clients, prostitutes themselves) are not honest, taxpaying, law-abiding members of society.

28064212

MazG wrote: »

Even it it were demonstrably true that legalising prostitution would end (or minimise) the violence, drug-abuse, human trafficking, coercion, organised crime element of it, we would still be left with the objectification of humans as sex objects. The notion of sexual gratification as a right or entitlement does not sit well with me and I would still have a problem with prostitution and I would still judge someone who paid for sex

Again, no-one is saying that sexual gratification is a right or an entitlement. What they are saying is that if someone wants to provide sexual gratification in return for payment, they should be entitled to.

And again, your judgments are irrelevant. I judge reality TV show watchers (as do a large proportion of the general public), it's completely irrelevant

Monty Burnz

Millicent wrote: »

Even so, it still doesn't account for why lesbian prostitutes are unheard of. Not all people who use prostitutes do so because nothing else is available.

Are they unheard of, though? I imagine most prostitutes - certainly many - would be happy to do business with female customers.

There's an awful lot of guessing going on here - this conversation would really benefit from input from someone who works in the sex industry.

drkpower

MazG wrote: »

But it was illegal when most people were opposed to it. In this country, most people are not opposed to homosexuality. Some are, but most aren't. That's why the law was changed.

Oh, so thats ok then......:D? Regardless of the rights of the individual, if 50.00000001% of the people dont agree with what you do behind closed doors, that noone else has to do, or see, then you should go to prison for doing it.

I would wager a bet that >50.00000001% of the Irish people do not agree with anal sex; should we have a referendum and criminalise it if 50.00000000% disagree?

Procasinator

Millicent wrote: »

There's a greater percentage of women in straight bars for straight men. Proportionately, I'd imagine it evens out. Also, that point kind of presumes that gay bars are just pick-up joints. That's not necessarily the case.

Even so, it still doesn't account for why lesbian prostitutes are unheard of. Not all people who use prostitutes do so because nothing else is available.

It would depend on a bar, but say a popular Saturday night bar might have 50/50 between the genders, while a lesbian bar would have closer to 100% of the one gender. For a hetereosexual guy, I can discount being interested in 50% of population of the bar based purely on their gender straight off the bat.

I wouldn't assume that gays bars are just pick-up joints, as such, it obviously depends highly on the bar. Many heterosexual bars are merely pick up joints. I would think (and I may be wrong) that are bar dedicated to a particular sexual orientation would tend to have a higher percentage of people looking to meet people they are sexually interested in (otherwise why is would the selling point of the bar be sexual orientation). Whereas a "normal" bar would probably have more people in relationships, people out for fun, etc.

I just think the ratios would more likely be in your favour as a lesbian in a lesbian bar. I don't want to create stereotypes of lesbians or avenues dedicated to that sexual orientation, however.

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

But it was illegal when most people were opposed to it. In this country, most people are not opposed to homosexuality. Some are, but most aren't. That's why the law was changed

But do you think it is right that the government sticks its nose into what two adults get up to in private, where neither is harmed? And can imprison or sentence people to death for doing such things?

MazG

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So on a philosophical point you will allow trafficked women to suffer? I would judge someone who holds that position.

Sorry Monty, I can't understand how you took that from my posts. Can you please clarify?

No, I believe that we established earlier that MazG holds that such a 'casual encounter' is acceptable. (apologies if it was someone else who said that)

You may have missed it, but I did address this in an earlier post.

I'lll just ask you one question: if, for some unforseen reason, contraception once again became morally and socially repugnant, would you accept its crtiminalisation?

The point I was making about societal morals was in addressing the claim that personal morals are not relevant to the debate. Morals are relevant because, as a whole, that is how we as a society decide what is and what isn't legal. I've lived in two countries where prostitution is legal (or at least 'more legal' than it is here). I still thought it was wrong though.

Originally Posted by rossie1977
would you judge someone who kept buying a girl drinks at a bar for hours, getting her so drunk she is barely able to stand, taking her home and having sex with her??

Yes. Yes I would.

MazG

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But do you think it is right that the government sticks its nose into what two adults get up to in private, where neither is harmed? And can imprison or sentence people to death for doing such things?

But that assumes that paid for sex has no effect other than on the two parties involved. I don't think that's true (for all the reasons I outlined earlier)

MazG

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But do you think it is right that the government sticks its nose into what two adults get up to in private, where neither is harmed? And can imprison or sentence people to death for doing such things?

Imprison? Hmmm maybe/maybe not.

Sentence to death? Definitely not.

MazG

rossie1977 wrote: »

am i to assume you have a dim view of porn as well??

... ya got me!

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

The point I was making about societal morals was in addressing the claim that personal morals are not relevant to the debate. Morals are relevant because, as a whole, that is how we as a society decide what is and what isn't legal. I've lived in two countries where prostitution is legal (or at least 'more legal' than it is here). I still thought it was wrong though.

That's fair enough, but do you agree that we are now in more enlightened times where personal liberty trumps the right of others to disapprove of something that does not affect them?

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

Imprison? Hmmm maybe/maybe not.

Sentence to death? Definitely not.

Would you please expand on your logic here?

Millicent

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Are they unheard of, though? I imagine most prostitutes - certainly many - would be happy to do business with female customers.

There's an awful lot of guessing going on here - this conversation would really benefit from input from someone who works in the sex industry.

Honestly, I've done a fair amount of research on this and written a pile of essays -- lesbian prostitutes are just about unheard of. I had links but I lost them when I lost a load of essays.

28064212

MazG wrote: »

But that assumes that paid for sex has no effect other than on the two parties involved. I don't think that's true (for all the reasons I outlined earlier)

And driving a car sometimes has a bad outcome on people who weren't involved. Should it be banned?

MazG wrote: »

rossie1977 wrote: »

am i to assume you have a dim view of porn as well??

... ya got me!

Should porn be illegal so?

Have you had a chance to come up with a response to my scenario posted earlier?

28064212 wrote: »

What is your take on this scenario: a woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why?