Prostitution in Ireland.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Darlughda wrote: »

Nope. I have no desire to reproduce and never did. Guess what, there's loads of other women who feel strongly that they don't want to reproduce either.

Yea, because you speak for the billions of women in the world...

You also didn't bother reading my post, or at least try to understand it.

Funny thing is, the internet is full of adult dating sites and place where you can hook up with men for No Strings Attached One Night Stands, not to mention the amount of married/attached men with kids who are looking for cybersex, or sex chat on IM.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

There are plenty of married/attached women with kids doing same.

Are they just too mean to pay for sex?? Why don't they just go straight to a prostitute?

Because there's a difference between cybersex and physical sex. Some position them differently, thinking it's ok to have cybersex and not ok to have physical sex.

Or do they actually think its somehow more 'moral' to treat women as some kind of unpaid sex worker?

Why are you making this a sex thing? It's not about male or female, but automatically women jump straight into defense as if porstitution is some attack on women as a whole. Men just want to dip their wick... it's simple really.

Oh women use prostitutes too

philologos

rossie1977 wrote: »

were you financially coerced into your job or did you pick it because of others reasons??

I work to educate myself at the minute.

rossie1977 wrote: »

whether you disagree or agree with the practice comparing rape and consensual sex between two adults for money is ridiculous

I still think it is a fair comparison in many cases. As I've already cited the case of foreign nationals with limited English.

rossie1977 wrote: »

ironically the law's job is made much more difficult when something is illegal. many prostitutes won't go the police if attacked/raped/robbed etc because of the repercussions it would have on them personally and their line of work

It's worth fighting it than tolerating it IMO. A society without prostitution would be a better place to live. Again, in adopting the Scandinavian model we'd be much better at dealing with prostitution. Support the victims and criminalise exploiters.

Darlughda

Mohamed Shy Rigging wrote: »

Yea, because you speak for the billions of women in the world...

Never said I was speaking for the billions of women in the world. Unlike yourself who claimed women just want to reproduce. Whats with your attitude by the way?

Mohamed Shy Rigging wrote: »

There are plenty of married/attached women with kids doing same.

No theres not. There may be a few, but the number of men greatly outweigh the females on those sites.

Mohamed Shy Rigging wrote: »

Why are you making this a sex thing? It's not about male or female, but automatically women jump straight into defense as if porstitution is some attack on women as a whole. Men just want to dip their wick... it's simple really. Oh women use prostitutes too

Well, maybe you misunderstand me if you think I am making a gender war out of it.
I am fully in favour of prostitution being regulated and protection given to sex workers.

My point was there are a hell of lot of people out there on those sites who are in effect looking for unpaid sex workers.

I was wondering are they just too mean to pay for a prostitute or are they convincing themselves its somehow more 'moral', if there is not an exchange of cash for either NSA ONS and/or cybersex.

Are they the same men who would condemn prostitution, and prostitutes?Yet what they are looking for are the services a sex worker provides.

CorkMan

Prostitution will always be there IMO. As long as men want sex, and to a less extent women want it or sell themselves for profit, it will be there. Just look at the animal kingdon, there are examples of chimpanzees selling themselves to other chimpanzees for food.

OutlawPete

CorkMan wrote: »

.. there are examples of chimpanzees selling themselves to other chimpanzees for food.

Have you got her number?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Darlughda wrote: »

Never said I was speaking for the billions of women in the world. Unlike yourself who claimed women just want to reproduce. Whats with your attitude by the way?

No I didn't. Again, you didn't read my post.

What attitude?

No theres not.

How do you even know this? Speculation I guess?

There may be a few, but the number of men greatly outweigh the females on those sites.

Just a handful, because women with kids/husbands never cheat, right? :rolleyes:

It probably got something to with my original post. If you would care to read it

Well, maybe you misunderstand me if you think I am making a gender war out of it.
I am fully in favour of prostitution being regulated and protection given to sex workers.

Funny, because you defend females immediately without any proof what so ever.

My point was there are a hell of lot of people out there on those sites who are in effect looking for unpaid sex workers.

Unpaid sex workers??? Are the men looking for sex unpaid sex workers too? Or is this just reserved for the women too. It's men looking for sex, the same reason why the women are on those sites. Chances are, picking a woman up on a site like that, she probably had a lot less mickeys in here than someone who has sex for a living.

I was wondering are they just too mean to pay for a prostitute or are they convincing themselves its somehow more 'moral', if there is not an exchange of cash for either NSA ONS and/or cybersex.

Not sure what cybersex has to do with anything really.

Would you pay for something you could get for free?

Are they the same men who would condemn prostitution, and prostitutes?Yet what they are looking for are the services a sex worker provides.

Are they the same people who condemn prostitution? Impossible to say. More speculation.

They are looking for sex, without the risk of getting busted, paying money and the higher chance of catching an STI or STD.

28064212

Jakkass wrote: »

You can't but equate them. There is no effective way of weeding out people who do not wish to be in prostitution in prostitution from the minority of those who do. Prostitution goes hand in hand with human trafficking wherever you go whether the prostitution is technically legal or illegal.

You can't but equate car accidents with driving. There is no effective way of weeding out which drivers who are going to kill a family of four. Can we ban driving so?

Prostitution does not automatically go hand-in-hand with trafficking. In the US, Central Americans are trafficked to provide cheap construction labour. Is construction hand-in-hand with trafficking so?

Trafficking is illegal. It will always be illegal. It is not a reason to ban something else

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't know if that would be possible entirely of ones own free will. There would be other factors involved in the decision.

As there are with any job

Jakkass wrote: »

As for regarding being respected as a "hang up" this is absurd. All people should earnestly desire to be respected for who they are in their fullness not just as a sexual object.

And a plumber can earnestly desire to be respected by their employer. They can be accepting of the fact that they may not be

Jakkass wrote: »

Reach the pinnacle of your ability through education, find a job where you are thoroughly satisfied and where you are fully respected for who you are, raise a family, don't raise a family, see the world, so on and so forth. The world is ones oyster.

Great, so any meaningless jobs should be eliminated and we'll all live happily ever after. That's not idealism, that's a utopian fantasy

Jakkass wrote: »

The only problem with your scenario is that it is fictional.

As are yours of it being impossible to to be a prostitute and yet have a happy life

Jakkass wrote: »

Also this thread isn't about homosexuality, and there is very little comparison between either. I think if I was to replace prostitution with homosexuality in that passage I find something ridiculous arises. Namely this sentence.

I was saying to use homosexuality in the sentence I quoted from you:

Jakkass wrote: »

I guess it is because of a strong belief that I have in human potential that I think we should leave homosexuality as an archaic remnant of the past where it belongs. We have a responsibility to stand up and do what is best. Without a doubt as I see it it is eradicating homosexuality

You're taking a moral stance and forcing it on other people who don't share it. There is no difference between saying prostitution is morally wrong and homosexuality is morally wrong. Homosexuality is wrong when it's forced, coerced, based on abuse etc. It is not for you (or the state) to decide it is wrong between two consenting adults

Jakkass wrote: »

It is the State's job to stand up for peoples welfare, rights and dignity. Prostitution compromises all three. As someone who believes in securing these, I stand up against prostitution.

I believe States do make moral choices in cases where it is significant to peoples rights.

Where? And again, how does informed and willing prostitution compromise welfare, rights and dignity? Anymore than being, say, a model?

Jakkass wrote: »

In the case of prostitution many are financially coerced into it. I personally don't see any reason why this couldn't be considered rape.

The law's job is certainly to protect people who cannot protect themselves. In an awful lot of cases this is true in the prostitution business.

So any job someone takes because they need money should be illegal?

freeze4real

if there's a demand there's always supply.

Darlughda

Sigh.....Xavier, its not speculation. That's the way the way it is on those sites.

I have already explained what I mean by an unpaid sex worker. I am not going to repeat myself. Maybe you need to read my posts.

eilo1

I think prostitution is dreadful and I know your all going to give out about that but that is my opinion!

To all the men that have no problem with it and use prostitutes, How do you know that woman is acting by her own free will and not being forced into it?
If the woman was trafficked and is being kept against her will, then you are raping her. It is not consensual, those women would not be in that position if the demand wasn't there.

And to all the men who say there is nothing wrong with prostitution as long as the girl is consenting. To the people who think it hurts no one, Id ask you would you marry a prostitute? Would you encourage your mother, sister, daughter to become a prostitute?

If you cant answer yes to the above questions then you are admitting it is damaging to the women who do it!

CorkMan

eilo1 wrote: »

I think prostitution is dreadful and I know your all going to give out about that but that is my opinion!

To all the men that have no problem with it and use prostitutes, How do you know that woman is acting by her own free will and not being forced into it?
If the woman was trafficked and is being kept against her will, then you are raping her. It is not consensual, those women would not be in that position if the demand wasn't there.

When I was in Madrid the prostitutes were going for me. On one occasion a prostitute grabbed me on one end of the street looking for sex and on the other side an other. Whenever I passed they asked "Suck and f**k?". If that is not consensual I do not know what is.

rossie1977

Jakkass wrote: »

A society without prostitution would be a better place to live

perhaps it would but its irrelevant, you will never be without prostitution, even if every nation on earth became totalitarian theocracies where prostitution was punishable by death, it would still exist, yes deep deep underground but it would still exist

philologos

28064212 wrote: »

You can't but equate car accidents with driving. There is no effective way of weeding out which drivers who are going to kill a family of four. Can we ban driving so?

Prostitution isn't a necessary need for people as driving is. Driving doesn't exploit any other person for mere gratification in the same way as prostitution does.

28064212 wrote: »

Prostitution does not automatically go hand-in-hand with trafficking. In the US, Central Americans are trafficked to provide cheap construction labour. Is construction hand-in-hand with trafficking so?

Everywhere prostitution is, trafficking is also. The great thing about the law in Sweden is that it has cut both rates of prostitution and trafficking in one go.

28064212 wrote: »

Trafficking is illegal. It will always be illegal. It is not a reason to ban something else.

Prostitution should also be firmly illegal.

28064212 wrote: »

And a plumber can earnestly desire to be respected by their employer. They can be accepting of the fact that they may not be

Again, people aren't just tools to be used and abused. This is why the idea of respect is so strong in my argument. Human dignity should be valued. The fact that there is a who behind each and every person is hugely important. I would hope that you would agree.

28064212 wrote: »

Great, so any meaningless jobs should be eliminated and we'll all live happily ever after. That's not idealism, that's a utopian fantasy

It is a utopian fantasy to encourage each and every person to reach their full potential?

If so, I'm happy to aspire towards this because my values lead me in this direction that all should be free, and that all should live with dignity.

28064212 wrote: »

As are yours of it being impossible to to be a prostitute and yet have a happy life

I'm skeptical as to it being a majority portrayal of the business anywhere. This is what I've suggested.

28064212 wrote: »

I was saying to use homosexuality in the sentence I quoted from you:

You're taking a moral stance and forcing it on other people who don't share it. There is no difference between saying prostitution is morally wrong and homosexuality is morally wrong. Homosexuality is wrong when it's forced, coerced, based on abuse etc. It is not for you (or the state) to decide it is wrong between two consenting adults

Homosexuality has nothing to do with this argument.

28064212 wrote: »

Where? And again, how does informed and willing prostitution compromise welfare, rights and dignity? Anymore than being, say, a model?

1. Dignity - People being much much more than mere sexual objects.
2. Welfare & Rights - Full bodily integrity.

28064212 wrote: »

So any job someone takes because they need money should be illegal?

Not at all. Jobs where people are exploited and in many cases abused for money should be illegal as a general norm.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Darlughda wrote: »

Sigh.....Xavier, its not speculation. That's the way the way it is on those sites.

Sigh all you want, it's speculation. There is no foundations for your claim. It's wrong.

I said; There are plenty of married/attached women with kids doing same

you replied; no there's not

As if by just denying it, it's somehow fact. :rolleyes:

I have already explained what I mean by an unpaid sex worker.

No you haven't. Closest you got to that is as follows:

My point was there are a hell of lot of people out there on those sites who are in effect looking for unpaid sex workers.

Or do they actually think its somehow more 'moral' to treat women as some kind of unpaid sex worker?


Neither explains what you mean by "unpaid sex worker".

From my understanding, an "unpaid sex worker" is someone on a dating site looking for sex but is female, a male doing same is stingy and cheap and despises prostitution...???

I am not going to repeat myself. Maybe you need to read my posts.

I have read your posts as I take the time to try and understand what it is the poster is trying to say before I reply. I can't do any more than that. I have read your posts, or part of your posts, multiple times.

philologos

rossie1977 wrote: »

perhaps it would but its irrelevant, you will never be without prostitution, even if every nation on earth became totalitarian theocracies where prostitution was punishable by death, it would still exist, yes deep deep underground but it would still exist

How is it irrelevant? - It's wholly relevant. Encouraging the State to be a good place for people to live, seek livelihoods, and to live in freedom is crucially important to us all.

There is nothing totalitarian about this view. It is common sense law. As for theocratic, although the Judeo-Christian value system encourages people to remain free from prostitution you are ignoring that in a majority atheist / agnostic state such as Sweden there have been hugely successful measures put in place to tackle this.

I'm willing to support those who are willing to stand up for what's right irrespective of their religious beliefs.

Dean820

So, we all agree then...Irish women are the problem.

eilo1

CorkMan wrote: »

When I was in Madrid the prostitutes were going for me. On one occasion a prostitute grabbed me on one end of the street looking for sex and on the other side an other. Whenever I passed they asked "Suck and f**k?". If that is not consensual I do not know what is.

I was saying if the girl is trafficked it is not consensual.

How do you know those girls where hustling you to make money for themselves and not some pimp who forces them into it.

I worked with a charity in London briefly who had dealt with girls that where only 16/17 who met older men. The girls thought these men where their boyfriends, they bought them presents, took them out to dinner, encourage them to try new things LIKE DRUGS! Then moved them away from their families and forced them into sleeping first with his "friends" and eventually working in brothels and the streets.

The pimps would target troubled teens and groom them into working as prostitutes.

Thats the reality of what happens to the girls you see offering you a "suck and f***"

Dr. Zeus

Dean820 wrote: »

So, we all agree then...Irish women are the problem.

Grow up dude. Projection springs to mind!

CorkMan

eilo1 wrote: »

I was saying if the girl is trafficked it is not consensual.

How do you know those girls where hustling you to make money for themselves and not some pimp who forces them into it.

I worked with a charity in London briefly who had dealt with girls that where only 16/17 who met older men. The girls thought these men where their boyfriends, they bought them presents, took them out to dinner, encourage them to try new things LIKE DRUGS! Then moved them away from their families and forced them into sleeping first with his "friends" and eventually working in brothels and the streets.

The pimps would target troubled teens and groom them into working as prostitutes.

Thats the reality of what happens to the girls you see offering you a "suck and f***"

1st off, I never agree with a pimp selling women. I am also against drug dealers selling hard drugs, never mind a pimp using them to control women. I am against that type of prostitution completely.

But I think when a women rents out a room in the red light district in Amsterdam, in a 100% legalized enviorment, that is alright. I hope in Madrid the women on the street weren't being sold like that. A good note is from what I saw none of them looked bad, they were all a healthy weight, none of their face was eroded. Drugs like crack, heroin, crystal meth, you can tell straight away when a person is a user.

drkpower

Jakkass wrote: »

Just because someone has an opinion that rape is OK doesn't mean that we should legalise rape, the same is true in this case.

I really hope you were joking with that one....!

Anyway, others have already guided to the blatantly obvious reason that this is not an applicable analogy, for the blatantly obvious reason that eh, rape doesnt involve the consensual actions of two parties. Which I thought you might have appreciated!! Of course, your response to that point is:

Jakkass wrote: »

In the case of prostitution many are financially coerced into it. I personally don't see any reason why this couldn't be considered rape.

Which of course is utter nonsense. To consider why, have a little think about the consequences if financial coercion were enough to vitiate consent in any sphere, sexual or otherwise. And then come back to me.

eilo1

"But I think when a women rents out a room in the red light district in Amsterdam, in a 100% legalized enviorment, that is alright. I hope in Madrid the women on the street weren't being sold like that. A good note is from what I saw none of them looked bad, they were all a healthy weight, none of their face was eroded. Drugs like crack, heroin, crystal meth, you can tell straight away when a person is a user.[/QUOTE]

So you think its alright for women to rent out their bodies for money. Would you marry a prostitute? Would you be happy for your daughter to work as one? And I mean in reality would you be happy for your daughter to go sleep with 5, 10 or 15 random men on a daily basis?

28064212

Jakkass wrote: »

Everywhere prostitution is, trafficking is also.

Completely irrelevant. Correlation does not imply causation. Everywhere construction is, labourers are paid below minimum and expoited.

Jakkass wrote: »

Again, people aren't just tools to be used and abused. This is why the idea of respect is so strong in my argument. Human dignity should be valued. The fact that there is a who behind each and every person is hugely important. I would hope that you would agree.

It is a utopian fantasy to encourage each and every person to reach their full potential?

If so, I'm happy to aspire towards this because my values lead me in this direction that all should be free, and that all should live with dignity.

Great sentiments. But there is nothing there that means prostitution should be any more illegal than hundreds of other jobs

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm skeptical as to it being a majority portrayal of the business anywhere. This is what I've suggested.

And? Then the majority of prostitution will remain illegal. But demand will be shifted to the legal avenues. If a customer has the choice between a possibly illegal, trafficked, coerced, abused prostitute, and one who is licensed, regulated, confirmed STD-free, confirmed consenting, then the vast majority will make the latter choice

Jakkass wrote: »

Homosexuality has nothing to do with this argument.

Hang on, you brought morality-based legislation on what two consenting adults do in private into this. The least you could do is respond to it. Do you think homosexuality should be banned on moral grounds? If not, why is your moral argument against prostitution any better than someone who does think homosexuality should be banned?

Jakkass wrote: »

1. Dignity - People being much much more than mere sexual objects.
2. Welfare & Rights - Full bodily integrity.

Again, nothing in there that isn't equally applicable to hundreds of other legal jobs

Jakkass wrote: »

Not at all. Jobs where people are exploited and in many cases abused for money should be illegal as a general norm.

The abused part is completely irrelevant, that will always be illegal.

Do you want a list of the hundreds of legal jobs where people are "exploited"?

CorkMan

eilo1 wrote: »

"But I think when a women rents out a room in the red light district in Amsterdam, in a 100% legalized enviorment, that is alright. I hope in Madrid the women on the street weren't being sold like that. A good note is from what I saw none of them looked bad, they were all a healthy weight, none of their face was eroded. Drugs like crack, heroin, crystal meth, you can tell straight away when a person is a user.

So you think its alright for women to rent out their bodies for money. Would you marry a prostitute? Would you be happy for your daughter to work as one? And I mean in reality would you be happy for your daughter to go sleep with 5, 10 or 15 random men on a daily basis?[/QUOTE]

Yes I think it is alright for a women to rent out her body for money, many are doing it in Amsterdam and I imagine many through their own will worldwide.

I would have no problem with my daughter working in the RLD. She could make €1k+ a day if she is good at it. I imagine this would be the norm among dutch families.

28064212

eilo1 wrote: »

So you think its alright for women to rent out their bodies for money.

If they choose to, yes

eilo1 wrote: »

Would you marry a prostitute?

If I loved her, yes. I wouldn't want her to continue working as a prostitute, but that's her choice, not mine

eilo1 wrote: »

Would you be happy for your daughter to work as one?

And I mean in reality would you be happy for your daughter to go sleep with 5, 10 or 15 random men on a daily basis?

No. Of course there are many hundreds of jobs I don't want my daughter to work as. It's her choice though. Should I lock her up so that she can't do anything I don't want her too?

Dr. Zeus

CorkMan wrote: »

I would have no problem with my daughter working in the RLD. She could make €1k+ a day if she is good at it. I imagine this would be the norm among dutch families.

Does anyone else find this disturbing? Good at selling her body to random strangers, many of whom would treat her like a piece of meat.

It is most certainly not the norm for Dutch families. The majority of prostitutes in Holland are non nationals. Go figure.

eilo1

28064212 wrote: »

No. Should I lock her up so that she can't do anything I don't want her too?

Dont know where the suggestion to lock anyone up comes from.

The reason I ask if people are happy to marry a prostitute or to have their loved ones work in this area is because nobody does!! and that in itself tells us that it is not a healthy positive way to live.
This is nothing to do with the catholic church or morals. Its simply a crude, degrading, damaging profession for any woman to be in.

rossie1977

Jakkass wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? - It's wholly relevant. Encouraging the State to be a good place for people to live, seek livelihoods, and to live in freedom is crucially important to us all.

and yet you advocate that people shouldn't be allowed use their own body as they see fit, which would also tie in with your previous point "seek livelihoods"

There is nothing totalitarian about this view. It is common sense law. As for theocratic, although the Judeo-Christian value system encourages people to remain free from prostitution you are ignoring that in a majority atheist / agnostic state such as Sweden there have been hugely successful measures put in place to tackle this.

you didn't read my post correctly, i wasn't talking about viewpoints, i was describing a "what if" scenario

sweden while its population is majorly atheist/agnostic, its parliament is not, i remember reading a while back (someone will correct me if i am wrong) that you have to be christian to be a member of government in sweden

philologos

28064212 wrote: »

Completely irrelevant. Correlation does not imply causation. Everywhere construction is, labourers are paid below minimum and expoited.

It's wholly relevant when it is a huge problem. As for being paid below minimum in construction, I would support people going through construction to resolve this. The very act of prostituting is wholly different to that of working in the construction sector or gardening, or whatever other absurd comparison that will be brought to the table, there is a clear difference.

28064212 wrote: »

Great sentiments. But there is nothing there that means prostitution should be any more illegal than hundreds of other jobs

There absolutely is. The idea that people can do much much better, and that we as society should be able to help people to do better.

28064212 wrote: »

And? Then the majority of prostitution will remain illegal. But demand will be shifted to the legal avenues. If a customer has the choice between a possibly illegal, trafficked, coerced, abused prostitute, and one who is licensed, regulated, confirmed STD-free, confirmed consenting, then the vast majority will make the latter choice

It means we continue to tackle it and as a society that we say no to this. This is at least what I think is best. Even in the Netherlands criminality has forced them to shut down a large percentage of the windows. The same is true of the cannabis café's in Amsterdam coincidentally.

28064212 wrote: »

Hang on, you brought morality-based legislation on what two consenting adults do in private into this. The least you could do is respond to it. Do you think homosexuality should be banned on moral grounds? If not, why is your moral argument against prostitution any better than someone who does think homosexuality should be banned?

I'm not going to answer anything based on homosexuality because it has no comparison to prostitution. Prostitution cannot be said with certainty to be absolutely consensual, this is what makes it different.

28064212 wrote: »

Again, nothing in there that isn't equally applicable to hundreds of other legal jobs.

Well if you are to bring the assumption in that having sex for a living is no different to anything else certainly. As to what degree that is actually true in human beings is doubtful. It isn't one activity amongst many, it is incredibly personal which is why I have raised dignity.

28064212 wrote: »

The abused part is completely irrelevant, that will always be illegal.

It will continue to happen under the legal veneer of prostitution.

28064212 wrote: »

Do you want a list of the hundreds of legal jobs where people are "exploited"?

My point of view. Let's tackle these too and restore good standards for dealing with employees in larger society.

28064212

eilo1 wrote: »

Dont know where the suggestion to lock anyone up comes from.

Because if she chooses to do so it is not my right to stop her

eilo1 wrote: »

The reason I ask if people are happy to marry a prostitute or to have their loved ones work in this area is because nobody does!! and that in itself tells us that it is not a healthy positive way to live.
This is nothing to do with the catholic church or morals. Its simply a crude, degrading, damaging profession for any woman to be in.

You missed the part where I said I would be perfectly ok with it if that was their choice. I would be no more opposed to her working as a safe, regulated prostitute than I would be with her working in many other currently legal jobs

CorkMan

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

Does anyone else find this disturbing? Good at selling her body to random strangers, many of whom would treat her like a piece of meat.

It is most certainly not the norm for Dutch families. The majority of prostitutes in Holland are non nationals. Go figure.

Well a prostitution looks at a man and only sees a money sign. Plus men only go in to have sex for a bit, not start a relationship.

Sorry, I meant for dutch families who have members involved in the trade. Obviously not all dutch families have prostitutes in them.