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Prostitution in Ireland.
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You really cannot equate visiting a prostitute who has chosen that as their profession with rape. If you want to beat someone up you can join a boxing club, if you covet someone's possessions you can buy/hire similar ones, visiting a prostitute should be no less legal.We all have to control our feelings. If we acted on every single feeling that we had it wouldn't be a good world to live in to begin with. For example, if I am filled with rage at someone is it acceptable for me to lash out with violence and kill them? If I desire someones property (coveting) should I go into their house and steal? Indeed, if I desire someone sexually, should I control this, or should I act and rape? The answers are obvious in those cases and they are obvious in this case.
No prostitute on the planet is going to turn their clients over to the police. If they did so they would soon be out of a job.Jakkass wrote:Criminalising the client is really simple. It encourages prostitutes to feel at ease to inform to the police about their environment so that the police will be able to act clearly to arrest those in charge. It allows for a more transparent means of breaking down the prostitution network.
The best way to get rid of exploitation and abuse is, as ever, to regulate and to legalise. That is the best way to protect women from being forced into the trade and to protect both prostitutes and the men who visit them from violence and disease.Jakkass wrote:I think I should point out, I'm not anti-sex in any shape or form. I'm opposed to exploitation and abuse. In fact I'm very much pro in the correct contexts. It's impossible not to be pro.0 -
You really cannot equate visiting a prostitute who has chosen that as their profession with rape. If you want to beat someone up you can join a boxing club, if you covet someone's possessions you can buy/hire similar ones, visiting a prostitute should be no less legal.
Both are harmful to others, that's why they are illegal. The common fact is that they are all illegal under the law.
As for the scenarios I did supply, you've misinterpreted them. My point was just because you have desires doesn't logically justify the means by which you satisfy them. This is a fair point.No prostitute on the planet is going to turn their clients over to the police. If they did so they would soon be out of a job.
Or who is behind their brothel as has been the case in Sweden. How do you think they have cut the rates of prostitution by 50% since 1999?The best way to get rid of exploitation and abuse is, as ever, to regulate and to legalise. That is the best way to protect women from being forced into the trade and to protect both prostitutes and the men who visit them from violence and disease.
This hasn't been the case in the Netherlands where criminality continues. This is the reason why they have had to reduce the number of windows from 400 to less than 100. Human trafficking also continues to a large degree. Likewise in Turkey where it is also legal.
It is simply incorrect to think that legalisation stops abuse, and stops trafficking.0 -
Yes, that is a fair point, but that is why there is, or should be, a legal outlet for those desires.As for the scenarios I did supply, you've misinterpreted them. My point was just because you have desires doesn't logically justify the means by which you satisfy them. This is a fair point.0 -
Yes, that is a fair point, but that is why there is, or should be, a legal outlet for those desires.
You're saying that there aren't legal means already?
Aside from this, in taking out a prostitute to do this you are inflicting your own sexual desires on someone who given the track record is highly likely to be unwilling to do it by some form of coercion, or trafficking.0 -
Wells there's loads of Dublin women working the streets out of their own free will,have met a good few off them in my job over the years.If the Garda where to come down heavy on them,every one of them would be unable to support their families.0
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Aside from brothels currently operating in a legal grey area what legal option is open to a man who fancies a shag but has no girlfriend?You're saying that there aren't legal means already?
Aside from this, in taking out a prostitute to do this you are inflicting your own sexual desires on someone who given the track record is highly likely to be unwilling to do it by some form of coercion, or trafficking.
Of course everything possible should be done to ensure that women are not coerced or trafficked into the sex trade, and I believe that regulation of the industry is would do a lot more to ensure that than removing any chance of regulation by criminalising the industry.
If a woman chooses to work in the sex industry she will, of course, be asked to do things that she maybe isn't into herself. However if the industry is illegal she has no-one she can turn to to back her up if she doesn't want to do something and can be forced, whereas in places like Nevada the ladies in the brothels can agree with the client in advance what she is prepared to do, and if he tries to force her into anything she has the back up of other staff, security, and the police.0 -
We all have to control our feelings. If we acted on every single feeling that we had it wouldn't be a good world to live in to begin with. For example, if I am filled with rage at someone is it acceptable for me to lash out with violence and kill them? If I desire someones property (coveting) should I go into their house and steal? Indeed, if I desire someone sexually, should I control this, or should I act and rape? The answers are obvious in those cases and they are obvious in this case.
But the urge to procreate is one that sits alongside such other evolutionary imperatives such as seeking out food and shelter. I suppose people should puch those to one side to satisfy the greater societal good too, should they?
Violence through rage is illegal for a good reason...however, if you were protecting yourself or a loved one from attack and killed somone during the incident, should it then follow that you're treated the same as the person that lashed out in rage? The outcome is the same, someone is dead...perhaps the urge to protect oneself should be criminalised in a similar way to someone who lashes out or who seeks to assualt or kill for no reason at all.
Stealing/coveting has nothing to do with this argument, but your point about rape is a good one...except in the case of rape the perpetrator does not ask the permission of the victim, the victim does not offer them sex and the victim is for certain going to suffer physical and psychological damage because of the crime.
In the case of a prostitute, one or other of the party suggests sex, money exchanges hands....who got raped?
You might also argue that the use of the services of a prositute might be a release valve for some men (or indeed women) who without that might resort to sexual assualt, rpae or worse. (I'm aware that rape is usally about more than just sex)
Is it? Only from your POV. The church (and I'm not bashing here) asks priests to control themselves with regard to sex for the majority fo their lives in the priesthood....in the past many of those priests were unable to control the urges and the repression arguably lead to the child abuse that followed.Jakass wrote:It is quite reasonable in all these cases to ask people to control themselves. It is no less reasonable in this case.Jakass wrote:Criminalising the client is really simple. It encourages prostitutes to feel at ease to inform to the police about their environment so that the police will be able to act clearly to arrest those in charge. It allows for a more transparent means of breaking down the prostitution network.
Criminalising the client is the feminist take on prostitution (after centuries of religion seeing the female as the only "criminal" when it comes to prostitution)...it seeks to paint a picture of the prositute as the victim and the big bad client as the real criminal. But all the client wanted was to trade money for sex...not to hurt or rape someone, not to steal anyhting or to kill anyone.
I'm well aware that in the illegal industry there are victims, women and girls that are forced into it, effectively sex slaves and that organised crime thrives on the back of those women; that is arguably as a direct result of the illegal status of the sex worker.
But in the case where a woman (or man) decides to offer their body as a service and someone is willing to partake of that service, I still fail to see where the crime is...is it a crime on society? Both the man and the woman have agreed to the act and no-one was hurt or in any way put out by those two people. The only thing that was hurt was the morals of society which must be protected at all cost :rolleyes:Jakass wrote:I think I should point out, I'm not anti-sex in any shape or form. I'm opposed to exploitation and abuse. In fact I'm very much pro in the correct contexts. It's impossible not to be pro.
Exploitation and abuse AGAIN are firmly rooted in the illegality.
You allude above in your bit about criminalising the client that, such a law allows sex workers to go to the police...the illegal status of the sex worker currently, means that they can't go to the police for fear or attention from the law and for fear of repercussions from their handlers or pimps (if they have any)Jakass wrote:The difference at least in the drugs trade is that it only affects one person (at least directly), and thats you. This is a separate argument.
I disagree...the correlation is there. You only have to look at what international organised crime treats as it's main global commodities: ie people, sex, drugs.
It is however a separate argument. I merely made the point that the similarities are there as are the similarities in why they (sex industry and drugs) are illegal for the most part.
What it boils down to is this: prohibition is a proven failure, be it for drink, drugs or the sex industry...driving any of those underground does not solve anything and it most cases only makes things worse.0 -
Wertz: Please read what I've said above about the prevalence of exploitation, abuse, and trafficking in countries where it is legal.0
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Aside from brothels currently operating in a legal grey area what legal option is open to a man who fancies a shag but has no girlfriend?
This is tough. People get on life responsibly. People can find outputs through pornography, but honestly, I can see the same level of exploitation in this as I can see in prostitution. The idea that one cannot control ones sexual desires effectively without going after each and every one of them is absurd to say the least.Of course everything possible should be done to ensure that women are not coerced or trafficked into the sex trade, and I believe that regulation of the industry is would do a lot more to ensure that than removing any chance of regulation by criminalising the industry.
This happens in countries where it is legal the cited cases at the minute being the Netherlands and Turkey.If a woman chooses to work in the sex industry she will, of course, be asked to do things that she maybe isn't into herself. However if the industry is illegal she has no-one she can turn to to back her up if she doesn't want to do something and can be forced, whereas in places like Nevada the ladies in the brothels can agree with the client in advance what she is prepared to do, and if he tries to force her into anything she has the back up of other staff, security, and the police.
It's not about "being into" certain things. It's about being into prostitution to begin with and being coerced to do this. This can happen irrespective of its legality. As for turning to the police, this is why I encourage the Swedish model which encourages arresting those who either run the brothel or exploit the prostitutes.0 -
You've not answered my question. If a man who, for whatever reason, cannot get or does not want a girlfriend, but still wants to have sex why should he not be able to go to a specific place where a woman can, of her own free will, offer to engage in coitus in return for a sum of money?This is tough. People get on life responsibly. People can find outputs through pornography, but honestly, I can see the same level of exploitation in this as I can see in prostitution. The idea that one cannot control ones sexual desires effectively without going after each and every one of them is absurd to say the least.
And making prostitution completely illegal will stop this how? It won't. In fact if prostitution is illegal women are more likely to be coerced into the sex trade. They will be unable to turn to the police if they are assaulted or raped because they are likely to be arrested themselves. You can talk about arresting brothel owners if you want, but if you arrest people like the man discussed upthread who care about the women they work with, who look out for their welfare and health, they will just be replaced with unscrupulous owners, or street-corner pimps and the women's welfare will be at the very bottom of those people's concerns.Jakkass wrote:This happens in countries where it is legal the cited cases at the minute being the Netherlands and Turkey.0 -
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You've not answered my question. If a man who, for whatever reason, cannot get or does not want a girlfriend, but still wants to have sex why should he not be able to go to a specific place where a woman can, of her own free will, offer to engage in coitus in return for a sum of money?
That's his problem as I would see it. The sexual urges complaint isn't adequate, as the urges complaint can be used in a lot of respects where it wouldn't be deemed acceptable. Simply put, you have to control your urges and exercise them when it is appropriate to do so. This applies to rage, and feelings of covetousness, and it also applies to lustfulness. It is personal responsibility to control these desires, it isn't the responsibility of society to hold people by the hand as they do this or to tailor the law to suit. The sympathy balance between the person seeking it, and the person who is living as a prostitute is heavily in favour of the latter as I see it.
The area of prostitution is too difficult to legislate for and ensure safety, and consent for all involved, and even if it could be achieved, as I've already said, I don't think the assumptions are values that we should desire in our society. People have the right to take this up and disagree on whatever grounds, but this is my position.
I guess I don't believe it is acceptable to make every part of life something that people buy and sell.And making prostitution completely illegal will stop this how? It won't. In fact if prostitution is illegal women are more likely to be coerced into the sex trade. They will be unable to turn to the police if they are assaulted or raped because they are likely to be arrested themselves. You can talk about arresting brothel owners if you want, but if you arrest people like the man discussed upthread who care about the women they work with, who look out for their welfare and health, they will just be replaced with unscrupulous owners, or street-corner pimps and the women's welfare will be at the very bottom of those people's concerns.
As I've mentioned in some countries they have had some considerably success. Sweden as of 1999, and Iceland and Norway as of 2009 use a model which criminalises the act of seeking a prostitute or running a brothel. As a result of this policy the Swedes in particular have significantly reduced human trafficking in and out, and have reduced the illegal prostitution trade by 50%. Further in roads can and should be made and this policy should be applied right across Europe.
By the by, it isn't just about women, there are men involved in the prostitution business as well, albeit considerably less. It is about human rights that one would put an end to what is in a huge number of cases sexual slavery.0 -
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Wertz: Please read what I've said above about the prevalence of exploitation, abuse, and trafficking in countries where it is legal.
I've already read most of the thread and I'm aware of the issues internationally. Would you contest that in those countries you specifically mention, that there is more of a problem because of legal status of sex workers or less of a problem?
Has it occured to you that semi-legal/legl status in only some countries creates the sex tourism that is prevalent in some EU countries and leads to further problems for those countries by concentrating sex workers disproportionally to meet artificial levesl of demand?
I'm afriad few of your arguments are going to convince me that keeping prostitution solely in the confines of the criminal end of things is going to either help those being exploited or wider society in general, and it certainly isn't going to cease demand.
Like it or not there is a demand for sex, it's a marketable product...all the laws in the world aren't going to change some very basic human needs and wants. Abstention is not a naural state of being.0 -
Wertz: The onus isn't on me to convince you. It is on those who are proposing the changes in the law to change it.
The whole "sex is natural" line is limited, because prostituting ones self for money isn't due to the fact that money is a human construct.
The legal status in the Netherlands and Turkey hasn't fixed a lot of the issues they remain as they were. This would lead me to conclude that the best solution is to apply the more effective Scandinavian model which has succeeded in reducing prostitution by 50% rather than exacerbate it.0 -
Wertz: The onus isn't on me to convince you. It is on those who are proposing the changes in the law to change it.
The whole "sex is natural" line is limited, because prostituting ones self for money isn't due to the fact that money is a human construct.
The legal status in the Netherlands and Turkey hasn't fixed a lot of the issues they remain as they were. This would lead me to conclude that the best solution is to apply the more effective Scandinavian model which has succeeded in reducing prostitution by 50% rather than exacerbate it.
after reading the last few pages i'm struck by one point you keep raising - that 'the scandinavian model reduced prostiution by 50%'. i didn't see any links but on what is this number based?
if you prosecute the 'john' as policy then it may lower frequency of visits fair enough - but i fail to see how any numbers sweden pulls out can be properly measurable. whats to say that the number of prostitutes hasnt actually increased - the 'industry' has been pushed further underground and looks to me like the perfect opportunity for prostitutes to increase their prices as johns make sure to protect themselves by hiring only the very best discreet services. ie, gone are your streetwalkers who would've been very easy to track and survey thereby leading to prosecution under the new law.
i still feel the whole thing is a non argument - it's an unregulated business...how on gods green earth can any numbers to trusted, they're provided by people with vested interests ffs!0 -
Wertz: The onus isn't on me to convince you. It is on those who are proposing the changes in the law to change it.
You're arguing these points on an internet forum...I'm calling you on it...therefore it's up to you to try and press your side of the argument, not to delegate it out to someone else. FWIW you won't change my mind much on the issue but you might convince someone else.The whole "sex is natural" line is limited, because prostituting ones self for money isn't due to the fact that money is a human construct.
Okay, so let's replace money with food or some other non human construct as a reward.
If someone is hungry and is willing to do anything for food (including coveting or stealing it, to bring you back to another point you raised), why shouldn't that include sex?
In fact many women will admit to marrying a man for the protection his income will offer her and any prospective offspring...this can be seen across the animal kingdom, where the alpha male will have the pick of mates.
How does the woman who marries for the insurance of a decent provider for her and her kids differe from the woman who wants to provide for herself by charging for her services?
If anything the prostitute in this instance is at least being honest with the man and the man is only "buying" them for a half hour or whatever, not for the rest of their lives.
BTW I'm NOT saying all women marry for money or that that is even inherently wrong...0 -
Wertz: In terms of legislation, I'm not the one proposing that we radically change our system. In fact the only change I would make would be to change the burden of prosecution to those seeking prostitutes so that the police can work to further eradicate prostitution from our midst.
As for food, this implies that the need for food is in any way comparable to sexual desire. Food is a necessity, this isn't true for sexual desire.Wertz wrote:In fact many women will admit to marrying a man for the protection his income will offer her and any prospective offspring...this can be seen across the animal kingdom, where the alpha male will have the pick of mates.
I believe humans are called to a higher moral standard than animals. There are many things common place in the animal kingdom that wouldn't be seen as desirable to humanity.
Again, the comparison with marriage is limited at best, particularly in a world where women are very much a key part of the workplace. Indeed from my own family background it was always expected that women work. I would have thought this was typical, perhaps not?
I don't view the man as the provider. Women can provide for their families equally through work.
By the by this debate isn't about women or men. It is about people. Both men and women work in prostitution contrary to popular belief.0 -
As for food, this implies that the need for food is in any way comparable to sexual desire. Food is a necessity, this isn't true for sexual desire.
money is a necessity...to buy food...through prostitution if the individual decides that is the best course for them. also, there are many men who would argue that sexual encounters are a necessity - i would think so.
jakkass, you just sound like you are moralising on this. you find prositution so distasteful that you could not possibly entertain society accepting it. this is not the way to look at any argument. i dont understand how in this day and age the right of the individual to choose how they live their lives - as long as they dont harm anyone else - can be dictated by you and your ilk. it's scary.0 -
I don't view the man as the provider. Women can provide for their families equally through work.
...and if that work is in prostitution because it's all that's available or all they can do to make up a shortfall?Jakass wrote:By the by this debate isn't about women or men. It is about people. Both men and women work in prostitution contrary to popular belief.
For the most part though, it is predominantly a female lead industry and men are usually the clientelle. I couldn't quote you figures....but probably safe to say it's 4/1 women to men offering themselves for hire.
I don't agree with your point re; the higher moral standards...at some point those break down (civilisation only 3 hot meals away from anarchy for instance) and we have to face the fact that at the bottom of all our technology and knowledge and religion and morals, that we are in fact just another mammal.
We have an urge to eat, to f*ck, and not to die: those urges are dictated by parts of the brain that pre-date our initial move off the African continent...laws that try to get in teh way of any of those urges are going to be ineffective....so why try and impose the moral argument on to what is a base instinct?
Yes lets just lock up everyone because they do things we find morally reprehensible, those morals being something that is too a human construct just like money and laws.0 -
thebigbiffo wrote: »after reading the last few pages i'm struck by one point you keep raising - that 'the scandinavian model reduced prostiution by 50%'. i didn't see any links but on what is this number based?
This will have to do you.
The findings of the commission are interesting to say the least and very relevant to our argument:Sweden's position on prostitution was also reaffirmed "Those who defend prostitution argue that it is possible to differentiate between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution, that adults should have the right to freely sell and freely purchase sex (...) However, based on a gender equality and human rights perspective, (...) the distinction between voluntary and nonvoluntary prostitution is not relevant."thebigbiffo wrote: »if you prosecute the 'john' as policy then it may lower frequency of visits fair enough - but i fail to see how any numbers sweden pulls out can be properly measurable. whats to say that the number of prostitutes hasnt actually increased - the 'industry' has been pushed further underground and looks to me like the perfect opportunity for prostitutes to increase their prices as johns make sure to protect themselves by hiring only the very best discreet services. ie, gone are your streetwalkers who would've been very easy to track and survey thereby leading to prosecution under the new law.
Lower number of visits, less prostitution business, win win. People are freed from this.thebigbiffo wrote: »i still feel the whole thing is a non argument - it's an unregulated business...how on gods green earth can any numbers to trusted, they're provided by people with vested interests ffs!
I've given you a very clear argument as to how in countries where it is legal, there are still huge human rights issues surrounding prostitution. It is because I have severe issues withWe have an urge to eat, to f*ck, and not to die: those urges are dictated by parts of the brain that pre-date our initial move off the African continent...laws that try to get in teh way of any of those urges are going to be ineffective....so why try and impose the moral argument on to what is a base instinct?thebigbiffo wrote: »money is a necessity...to buy food...through prostitution if the individual decides that is the best course for them. also, there are many men who would argue that sexual encounters are a necessity - i would think so.
To both of you - They can argue it as much as you want. The factual matter is:
If you do not eat you will die. If you control and regulate sexual desires to where it is appropriate you will not die....and if that work is in prostitution because it's all that's available or all they can do to make up a shortfall?
Prostitution isn't work, it's abuse and exploitation.thebigbiffo wrote: »jakkass, you just sound like you are moralising on this. you find prositution so distasteful that you could not possibly entertain society accepting it. this is not the way to look at any argument. i dont understand how in this day and age the right of the individual to choose how they live their lives - as long as they dont harm anyone else - can be dictated by you and your ilk. it's scary.
I am moralising on this because it is a moral issue.
I've presented clear arguments for my position. I find prostitution distasteful due to the severe problems that it causes to prostitutes, the general impact it has on how we respect eachother as human beings rather than sexual objects, and as a believer in human potential in that it inhabits people from pursuing their full potential and worth.
Be as scared as you want, but I feel that we deserve better than this. I don't share your assumption that it is harmless because the evidence suggests otherwise. Hopefully people here who have sense can see what the basis of this evidence means.
Edit: I can't see there being anything wrong with wanting people to be respected for who they are, rather than what they look like.For the most part though, it is predominantly a female lead industry and men are usually the clientelle. I couldn't quote you figures....but probably safe to say it's 4/1 women to men offering themselves for hire.
If this is true, it makes the prostitution industry worse due to the fact that it bolsters gender inequality. That said, I'm going to argue on the basis of all prostitutes rather than most.I don't agree with your point re; the higher moral standards...at some point those break down (civilisation only 3 hot meals away from anarchy for instance) and we have to face the fact that at the bottom of all our technology and knowledge and religion and morals, that we are in fact just another mammal.
We are mammals, but we are people with the capability of knowing what is right from wrong. If you aspire to the rock bottom understanding that humans cannot have any better moral aspiration than animals then I'm going to have to disagree with you due to my belief in human potential.Yes lets just lock up everyone because they do things we find morally reprehensible, those morals being something that is too a human construct just like money and laws.
We put people who do what is harmful in jail. This is no different as I see it.0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »That exact same argument was used to sentence Oscar Wilde to the prison sentencet that killed him. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Do we put smokers in jail?
Smoking isn't comparable with prostitution. I've already stressed earlier in this thread that this isn't comparable with homosexuality either in that it doesn't only involve you and your body. It involves others where genuine consent or lack of genuine consent is far from clear.0 -
Which is exactly why we think it should be legalised and regulated, to allow genuine consent to be ensuredSmoking isn't comparable with prostitution. I've already stressed earlier in this thread that this isn't comparable with homosexuality either in that it doesn't only involve you and your body. It involves others where genuine consent or lack of genuine consent is far from clear.Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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How do you determine genuine consent for anything? So ban everything. People often lie or are forced to lie about consent for everything.How do you determine genuine consent? People often lie or are forced to lie.
It's largely the same hang up I have with euthanasia.
I consented to sign my contract in my place of work. I could have been blackmailed/coerced/physically forced to sign it, but I wasn't.Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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How do you determine genuine consent? People often lie or are forced to lie.
It's largely the same hang up I have with euthanasia.
Generally people over the age of 18 are informed enough to give consent. The areas where we people might be forced into prostitution we want to get rid of. You are assuming that people can not give consent, you do not trust them to make a decision for themselves.
If I wanted to be a prostitute tomorrow why should I be prevented from doing so? I know all the risks associated with it, no one is coercing me to do it, the only reason is that you find it unpalatable and I do not.0 -
That will come as a surprise to any homosexual people who have sex with other homosexuals.I've already stressed earlier in this thread that this isn't comparable with homosexuality either in that it doesn't only involve you and your body. It involves others where genuine consent or lack of genuine consent is far from clear.
Consent is very clear in prostitution - far clearer than it is in a lot of social situations when neither partner may be entirely sure how far things will go. There is nothing clearer than party A saying to party B - 'do you want to have sex with me', which is how it actually works.
Of course, this thread was intended to discuss those who choose to work in the sex industry for their own reasons - I've stated repeatedly that any other form of prostitution is abhorrent and a crime. The idea is that by regulating the industry you make conditions better for everyone thatparticipates, particularly those offering the service. And by regulating those who choose to work in the industry, you can concentrate your resources on protecting those who are trafficked or forced into it.0 -
fcuking dopey whores and scumbag pimps; pathetic clientelle0
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Monty Burnz wrote: »That will come as a surprise to any homosexual people who have sex with other homosexuals.
Consent is very clear in prostitution - far clearer than it is in a lot of social situations when neither partner may be entirely sure how far things will go. There is nothing clearer than party A saying to party B - 'do you want to have sex with me', which is how it actually works.
There is nothing clear about this at all. I've asked people how can we make it clear that people actually consent to work in the prostitution industry. Again, I can't think of a single means by which we can.
As for ban everything where consent might be hard to tell. It isn't only this. Protect as many as possible by limiting what is severely harmful to people. This is the reason why I see it as being essential to prohibit this.0 -
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