M11 - Arklow to Rathnew

jd

dubhthach wrote: »

Wasn't this not the argument the NRA used so as to not provide service stations on the interurbans (M6 for example), the idea been that motorists would pull of motorway and use local services. It was shown to be a failure tbh

The NRA never used this argument, however they were precluded from building service areas

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TRJ/2010/12/01/printall.asp

As regards service areas, it would certainly have been better if they had been developed with the motorways. The legislation is important, I am afraid, because we are completely constrained in what we can do. If there is not a statutory provision to the effect that we can do something, we cannot do it. Until the legislative change was made in 2007, the NRA had no authority and could not have developed service areas.

Previous discussion at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70647018

L1011

The "legislation" missing was an SI to bring in to force provisions of an early 1990s Act (I'm not gonna look for which one) as thats when "Motorway Service Areas" were allowed originally. They just never did it till the Roads Act 2007...

Wild Bill

Golly gosh! - from the reaction here you'd think this was bad news

Newlands Cross and the most dangerous stretch of road in the country being prioritised?

Fantastic news! - and about time common sense won out over political parish pumpery. Also the notion of going in Arklow etc to get petrol/water/a rest is daft when you can have a dedicated service area.

How often have those rustic rip-off shops had clean toilets; water for the windscreen; functioning air pump for the tyres? In most cases almost never.

Too late for the rip-off artists to start crying now.

As for the M18; I fully support it; but a higher priority than Newlands/N11?

Pull the other one.:cool:

veryangryman

Wild Bill wrote: »

Fantastic news! - and about time common sense won out over political parish pumpery. Also the notion of going in Arklow etc to get petrol/water/a rest is daft when you can have a dedicated service area.

How often have those rustic rip-off shops had clean toilets; water for the windscreen; functioning air pump for the tyres? In most cases almost never.

Too late for the rip-off artists to start crying now.

Been on a UK service station? Toilets usually are a kip and the price of fuel is excessive

Not that its the case on the irish ones (yet - theyre new so give it time)

My point is...Online or offline, the places know they are shooting fish in a barrel and can generally charge and provide what quality of service they like.

Wild Bill

The thing that really annoyed me about the rustic pit-stops was the complete failure to have working air/water dispensers.

Have I ever been in a UK service area? I assume that question is rhetorical. I have spend a large part of my life in them. Vastly better than the rustic pit-stop; functional.

Overpriced? Yep.

Toilets? OK imho. Maybe you aren't lucky

veryangryman

Wild Bill wrote: »

Toilets? OK imho. Maybe you aren't lucky

:eek:

Bullseye1

Great news. Where did you read this?

Wild Bill

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Great news. Where did you read this?

What? About the toilets?

2011newbuild

"The design, construction, operation, maintenance and financing of approximately 16.5 kilometres of dual carriageway linking the existing Arklow Bypass with the existing Rathnew/Ashford Bypass in Co. Wicklow, together with several kilometres of associated side roads and link roads. "


Is it not motorway?

Any update on whether this is still starting 1 Sep?

spacetweek

2011newbuild wrote: »

"The design, construction, operation, maintenance and financing of approximately 16.5 kilometres of dual carriageway linking the existing Arklow Bypass with the existing Rathnew/Ashford Bypass in Co. Wicklow, together with several kilometres of associated side roads and link roads. "


Is it not motorway?

Any update on whether this is still starting 1 Sep?

I'm really, really hoping they mean Type 1 DC.

serfboard

2011newbuild wrote: »

Is it not motorway?

I'm presuming it's going to be built as a Type 1 dual carriageway and upgraded to motorway by way of ministerial order the same way they did with previous schemes.

Niles

serfboard wrote: »

I'm presuming it's going to be built as a Type 1 dual carriageway and upgraded to motorway by way of ministerial order the same way they did with previous schemes.

It made some sense in the case of the earlier projects but would it not be more logical to have it has a motorway right from the start in this case, considering that's what it will link up to at both ends. Could it be "upgraded" before officially opening (unlike the Gorey/Inch bypasses)? The speed limits are patchwork as it is.

Mongarra

Build it as a Type 1 dual carriageway and upgrade it by changing the green signs to blue before the official opening. Then it becomes a motorway but costs only dual carriageway prices.

PseudoFamous

I can't find any info on this, but are they building the bridges wide enough to facilitate the road being widened, or a straighter railroad being added?

I know it's unlikely now, but 20/30/40 years down the line, they may well need to, especially with the mad growth that's planned in Arklow, Wicklow and Gorey. Of course, I don't expect them to by any means, but it would be a clever foresight if the planning was to go even nearly accurately.

L1011

Niles wrote: »

It made some sense in the case of the earlier projects but would it not be more logical to have it has a motorway right from the start in this case, considering that's what it will link up to at both ends. Could it be "upgraded" before officially opening (unlike the Gorey/Inch bypasses)? The speed limits are patchwork as it is.

Building it "as motorway" despite being identical would require new planning and stricter rules

Declaring it to be motorway post permission (I actually thought it had been already) avoids this.

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

Building it "as motorway" despite being identical would require new planning and stricter rules

Declaring it to be motorway post permission (I actually thought it had been already) avoids this.

Indeed, this is a great (if originally accidental) system for minimising the impact of the nutcase anti-roads objectors. Amazing how the word "motorway" pushes all their buttons yet a motorway by any other name often escapes their attention - them not being the brightest elves in the woods.

But as this has been "shovel-ready" for 7 or 8 years it was probably originally planned as a HQDC like the other sections.

I assume they won't actually go to the expense of actually erecting green signs only to replace them six months later in this case - what with the country broke 'n all

Niles

MYOB wrote: »

Building it "as motorway" despite being identical would require new planning and stricter rules

Declaring it to be motorway post permission (I actually thought it had been already) avoids this.

Can it be "upgraded" prior to actual opening, or are we likely to have to wait a period between opening and upgrading?

L1011

Niles wrote: »

Can it be "upgraded" prior to actual opening, or are we likely to have to wait a period between opening and upgrading?

Definitely can be done prior to opening. Some bits have been done prior to *construction* (M18 from Gort to 'Oranmore' for instance).

Jayuu

Wild Bill wrote: »

I assume they won't actually go to the expense of actually erecting green signs only to replace them six months later in this case - what with the country broke 'n all

+1
This would be just madness and a complete waste of money. Surely this scheme has been planned already.

Carawaystick

As the land has been cpo'd the need for a motorway order is gone. The road can be redesigned to motorway anytime after a consultation period is completed

As for building a railway line alongside it, how would a train get from Arklow station to Arklow rugby club or from the rugby club down to Clonpaddin? Let alone the gradients around Barndarrig

csd

There seems to be very little in the public domain on the actual start date for this scheme. I don't see how it fits in with the "no major new schemes till 2014" announcement that was made recently.

There's nothing on the NRA site to suggest it's starting next month... is there anything concrete beyond that one link posted up-thread?

/csd

jd

The last correspondence I can offer is

JD to Minister
10 Jun
Thanks Leo
I presume the work on the "N11 gap" (Rathnew-Arklow), will not proceed for the foreseeable future (whether by PPP or directly funded)
Cheers
JD

reply

Minister Varadkar Constituency to me

16 June 2011

Dear JD,

The NRA are currently pursuing whether this can get PPP funding. Because of its relatively small size they are somewhat hopeful that it can.


Yours sincerely,
Leo

I sent in an email to the NRA this morning enquiring about the scheme

Wild Bill

Did not somebody note above that this was no longer a PPP but was being build from Public Funds?

[See the discussion on page 18]

L1011

csd wrote: »

There seems to be very little in the public domain on the actual start date for this scheme. I don't see how it fits in with the "no major new schemes till 2014" announcement that was made recently.

There's nothing on the NRA site to suggest it's starting next month... is there anything concrete beyond that one link posted up-thread?

/csd

The "no major new schemes till 2014" comes with a list of a few other pending schemes they intend to start this year. This is on it.

ilovegermany

MYOB wrote: »

The "no major new schemes till 2014" comes with a list of a few other pending schemes they intend to start this year. This is on it.

Are we sure this is no longer a PPP? - The NRA press release from the opening of the Cork interchanges makes no reference to the scheme as one of the ones to start this year. See the last paragraph at:
http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/htmltext,17954,en.html:confused:

L1011

ilovegermany wrote: »

Are we sure this is no longer a PPP? - The NRA press release from the opening of the Cork interchanges makes no reference to the scheme as one of the ones to start this year. See the last paragraph at:
http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/htmltext,17954,en.html:confused:

we're not. Its just a (fairly plausible) interpretation me a contract award notice on a non-state website.

Skid

I saw this posted this morning, hope there is no substance to this story from 'well placed sources' ...

http://www.wicklownews.net/index.php/2011/08/fears-grow-that-promised-n11-upgrade-will-be-axed/


The promised upgrade of a lethal stretch of the N11 may not go ahead for the foreseeable future, WicklowNews.net has learned.

This morning it has emerged that the National Roads Authority has been ordered to halt work on over 40 national projects.
While the N11 is not one of these, sources have said it looks increasingly likely that Transport Minister Leo Varadkar will shelve the much needed project in the coming weeks as exchequer and private financing dries up.

Just before the election, a number of TDs and election candidates announced that they had assurances from the Department of Transport that the upgrade, from Arklow to Rathnew, one of the country’s most notorious stretches of road, would begin construction by the end of 2011.
That department also told WicklowNews.net that it was ploughing ahead with the project. (Click here for the story)

But according to well placed sources, the project will be delayed yet again. An announcement will be made in the coming weeks.
At least 18 people have died on the 25km single lane route since the early 90s, many of those in crashes at the Ballinameesda bends.

Work was due to begin in 2005, however, the project has experienced significant delays despite the fact that the northern section of the route, from Wicklow Town to Bray, was completed some years ago.

While the N11 upgrade is to be built by the private sector, with the option of tolls, it now looks likely that the state will not be able to pay the bill.
Industry sources have also said it will be almost impossible for a large construction firm to get bank support for the project.

jd

Just got this... (It's still a PPP )

Dear JD,

Thank you for your email regarding the N11 Arklow to Rathnew scheme.

It is proposed to construct the N11 Arklow to Rathnew road improvement scheme under a Public Private Partnership contract that will also cater for the N7 Newlands Cross Upgrade scheme and the planned service area on the M11 near Gorey, Co. Wexford. The tender process for this PPP contract is underway and it is hoped, subject to availability of satisfactory funding arrangements, to award the contract later this year.

Regards,

spacetweek

jd wrote: »

Just got this... (It's still a PPP )

I'm still hopeful for this one.

dmeehan

jd wrote: »

subject to availability of satisfactory funding arrangements

there's the get-out clause