Is Irish a dead language?

gavitron22

i don't think it has to do with compulsion, most kids wouldn't learn irish if they didn't have to, an i think that's more because of how irish is often seen by the youth of today as old, outdated and parochial, which doesn't make liking irish very cool, put bluntly

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, Urban Irish is definitely on the increase.

No its not, and i have yet to see people speaking irish in derry and if they do its some republican idiot trying to turn Northern Ireland into something its not.

owenc

peatcass wrote: »

by presuming owen has no interest in irish culture.. please show a quote supporting this claim.

Tbh i'm not really intrested in irish because in my opinion it is an old tired language which i would have no need in learning, and for irish culture i'm not interested in that because i don't like it.

karma_

owenc wrote: »

Tbh i'm not really intrested in irish because in my opinion it is an old tired language which i would have no need in learning, and for irish culture i'm not interested in that because i don't like it.

I think your opinion is driven by your sense of wanting to be considered British and your revulsion of anything Irish, as is your ignorance of things that happen in your own County as well of any notion of history. In Derry, your own county, less than 20 miles from where you live, in Maghera and many other towns there are Irish schools which are well attended and thriving.

Myself, I didn't much like learning Irish when I was younger, I didn't have much of an aptitude for French or German either but when I was older it was certainly a regret.

The Language should be nurtured because it is part of our culture, our history and if we let these things die out the World becomes much smaller and far less interesting, and this goes for all other Countries and cultures Globally, we should be celebrating diversity not scorning it.

simonj

No, its a living language here in Connemara

owenc

simonj wrote: »

No, its a living language here in Connemara

Why are you speaking english now then?

owenc

karma_ wrote: »

I think your opinion is driven by your sense of wanting to be considered British and your revulsion of anything Irish, as is your ignorance of things that happen in your own County as well of any notion of history. In Derry, your own county, less than 20 miles from where you live, in Maghera and many other towns there are Irish schools which are well attended and thriving.

Myself, I didn't much like learning Irish when I was younger, I didn't have much of an aptitude for French or German either but when I was older it was certainly a regret.

The Language should be nurtured because it is part of our culture, our history and if we let these things die out the World becomes much smaller and far less interesting, and this goes for all other Countries and cultures Globally, we should be celebrating diversity not scorning it.

Well in my opinion anyone that learns irish and plays galeic in Northern Ireland is very bitter, and that seems to be very true as the ones in my school who play it all run the british down to the lowest.

karma_

owenc wrote: »

Well in my opinion anyone that learns irish and plays galeic in Northern Ireland is very bitter, and that seems to be very true as the ones in my school who play it all run the british down to the lowest.

The 20th Century called, they want their opinion back.

simonj

owenc wrote: »

Why are you speaking english now then?

Mar ta daoine eile ag scriobh anseo i mbearla, agus tuigim nach bhfuil gaeilge liofa ag chuile dhuine.

But I do understand there is waste, Irish is a spoken language, and publishing everything in Irish when not needed is a waste.
If someone wants an Irish publication of a government document, then they should be able to order one by phone, printed off by a department and posted out - or download.

Also, the legal system is being abused when people demand a jury trial in Irish, that needs to be addressed

owenc

simonj wrote: »

Mar ta daoine eile ag scriobh anseo i mbearla, agus tuigim nach bhfuil gaeilge liofa ag chuile dhuine.

But I do understand there is waste, Irish is a spoken language, and publishing everything in Irish when not needed is a waste.
If someone wants an Irish publication of a government document, then they should be able to order one by phone, printed off by a department and posted out - or download.

Also, the legal system is being abused when people demand a jury trial in Irish, that needs to be addressed

Do you agree then that it is a waste of time making people learn it and wasting money on puting it on road signs when half people have no clue what it says.

simonj

I do not agree entirely.

By that rational, why do poetry at school.

In terms of road signage quite often the Irish name is more apt.
For example, Cloch na Ron (seals rock) is - in english - Roundstone

There is also the cultural aspect, in the Middle east and North Africa, they have no problem having arabic and roman script.

As you said, if half the people have no clue what it means, that means the others do, so in terms of equality, it is only fair.

Thats why, as a native Irish speaker, it pisses me off when I see signposts with the English name painted out - its ignorant.
And normally done by what I refer to as Ay-ree-shins, people who move to an area to live the celtic dream, live and let live is my opinion.

I do believe for the leaving cert that Irish should be a votive subject.
But up to junior cert, I do not see a problem with having as broad a base as possible in education.

With the demise of latin, and the current methodology of teaching French as primarily a spoken anguage, Irish is one of the few subjects where structure, grammer and modality of linguistics is still a valuable part of an educaton.

On a final point my dad was a national school teacher, more at ease speaking Irish than English, in fact I dnt remember him speaking to me in English.
He was very cncewrned about Irish, promoted it because of its cultural and social value.
However, he also felt it was stupid to teach science subjects through Irish, as these are modern concepts that are hard to express through an indo-european language unrelated to romance or germanic languages.

Sin E is docha;)

owenc

simonj wrote: »

I do not agree entirely.

By that rational, why do poetry at school.

In terms of road signage quite often the Irish name is more apt.
For example, Cloch na Ron (seals rock) is - in english - Roundstone

There is also the cultural aspect, in the Middle east and North Africa, they have no problem having arabic and roman script.

As you said, if half the people have no clue what it means, that means the others do, so in terms of equality, it is only fair.

Thats why, as a native Irish speaker, it pisses me off when I see signposts with the English name painted out - its ignorant.
And normally done by what I refer to as Ay-ree-shins, people who move to an area to live the celtic dream, live and let live is my opinion.

I do believe for the leaving cert that Irish should be a votive subject.
But up to junior cert, I do not see a problem with having as broad a base as possible in education.

With the demise of latin, and the current methodology of teaching French as primarily a spoken anguage, Irish is one of the few subjects where structure, grammer and modality of linguistics is still a valuable part of an educaton.

On a final point my dad was a national school teacher, more at ease speaking Irish than English, in fact I dnt remember him speaking to me in English.
He was very cncewrned about Irish, promoted it because of its cultural and social value.
However, he also felt it was stupid to teach science subjects through Irish, as these are modern concepts that are hard to express through an indo-european language unrelated to romance or germanic languages.

Sin E is docha;)

On the celtic dream bit, i have this american far out cousin that ones to goto donega (no idea why!) and have this irish home in the middle of nowhere and speak irish, i wonder how that will go. So you speak irish like i speak english?? Is everything in irish the same way everything is in english?

Rebelheart

peatcass wrote: »

by presuming owen has no interest in irish culture.. please show a quote supporting this claim.

Wee Owen has an established and consistent antipathy to Irish culture in all its forms, except of course of that British unionist "Irish" variety. General trend in Owenc land: native Irish culture = backward; everything from Britain = progress.

He expresses all his opinions in an abysmal standard of the Queen's English, which is very revealing given his anti-Irish/pro-British politics.

Before accusing other posters of stuff, kindly familiarise yourself with the views of the person you have decided to defend. Thank you.

Rebelheart

owenc wrote: »

So you speak irish like i speak english??

Jesus, I hope he doesn't.

owenc

Rebelheart wrote: »

Wee Owen has an established and consistent antipathy to Irish culture in all its forms, except of course of that British unionist "Irish" variety. General trend in Owenc land: native Irish culture = backward; everything from Britain = progress.

He expresses all his opinions in an abysmal standard of the Queen's English, which is very revealing given his anti-Irish/pro-British politics.

Before accusing other posters of stuff, kindly familiarise yourself with the views of the person you have decided to defend. Thank you.

Not you again, didn't you learn your lesson?

simonj

Rebel, it was not a question of defending one opinion or another, its simply expressing my own.

Owen, I am bi-lingual, Irish and I speak English as you do.

Irish is not spoken like English per se, its not related to Germanic or Romance languages, its a seperate linguistic grouping, but it does use a roman alphabet.

English and Irish are of equal use to me - as are French and Dutch, having lived there for 6 years, but it depends on who I'm speaking to.
Knowing more than one language is, in general, not a bad thing.

Good luck to the cousin learning the Donegal dialect, but he is not the first American I have met or heard of to do that.

If in fact one believes that Irish culture is backward, that is simply wrong, some of the most important contributors to modern English - and indeed French - came from an Irish cultural background, e.g. Beckett, Joyce, Wilde, Heany, Yeats et al.

Cultually, they woud have had a different outlook had they lived in totally anglophone societies.
Culture and linguistics are intertwined, some of the legends that inspired Yeats, the culture that inspired Joyce, the life that O Connaire lived, these all added to their formative writing

I had to edit this - cannot believe I did not mention Swift in that list!!! And he was interested in the Irish language.

Wolfe Tone

gavitron22 wrote: »

i don't think it has to do with compulsion, most kids wouldn't learn irish if they didn't have to, an i think that's more because of how irish is often seen by the youth of today as old, outdated and parochial, which doesn't make liking irish very cool, put bluntly

I disagree. Many of my peers enjoyed actually speaking Irish. It is the content of the course which is headwreckingly boring.

owenc wrote: »

No its not, and i have yet to see people speaking irish in derry and if they do its some republican idiot trying to turn Northern Ireland into something its not.

Very narrow minded attitude here Owen. We all know where this type of attitude leads. And I can assure you all republicans are not idiots. Perhaps you should think more before writing such sweeping categorizations.

owenc wrote: »

Well in my opinion anyone that learns irish and plays galeic in Northern Ireland is very bitter, and that seems to be very true as the ones in my school who play it all run the british down to the lowest.

If anything Owen, it is you who is coming across as very bitter. Ignorant statements such as this get no one anywhere.

simonj

Rebelheart wrote: »

Jesus, I hope he doesn't.

:pac: Laughing my arse of- at the same time remind me not to annoy you - ouch!

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree. Many of my peers enjoyed actually speaking Irish. It is the content of the course which is headwreckingly boring.


Very narrow minded attitude here Owen. We all know where this type of attitude leads. And I can assure you all republicans are not idiots. Perhaps you should think more before writing such sweeping categorizations.

If anything Owen, it is you who is coming across as very bitter. Ignorant statements such as this get no one anywhere.

I'm not bitter!:eek: You haven't seen bitter until you meet them ones in the OO.;) I know those statements seem to be sweeping but in Northern Ireland that tends to be true, i've spent many a days chatting to these people and they all go on the same, thats why they are playing irish sports, sure the Gaa was set up to try and get irish culture to spread out and it was done with nationalists.

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

I'm not bitter!:eek: You haven't seen bitter until you meet them ones in the OO.;) I know those statements seem to be sweeping but in Northern Ireland that tends to be true, i've spent many a days chatting to these people and they all go on the same, thats why they are playing irish sports, sure the Gaa was set up to try and get irish culture to spread out and it was done with nationalists.

:rolleyes:

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

:rolleyes:

How do you know you don't live here.

simonj

Owen, I know things in the North are tainted in certain ways, but sport is sport, politics is politics.
If I am not much mistaken recently a GAA star and member of the PSNI was murdered.

Culturally, Irish has much to add, it has contributed to life on this island.
To completely ignore a culture with which you do not agree leads to ignorance of others views.
Ignorance leads to mis-understanding and conflict.

Nelson Mandella learnt Afrikaans - a bloody hard language - for that very reason.

Speaking Irish, out here at least, has no political connotations, its just a fact of life.

Having an understanding of another language opens up new doors into music, literature and other avenues of interest, its worthwhile.

Don't forget the main people in reviving gaelic cultural life included many of the Anglo-Irish Church of Ireland establishment like Douglas Hyde, Lady Gregory, Countess Markevitz and others.

The first gaelic I saw in roman script was a presbeterian bible from Scotland, in galic, a very close linguistic relative, we did not catch up until the 1960's

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

How do you know you don't live here.

Perhaps you should open your eyes more then and pay more attention to what else goes on. You live there yet you dont know either.

owenc

simonj wrote: »

Owen, I know things in the North are tainted in certain ways, but sport is sport, politics is politics.
If I am not much mistaken recently a GAA star and member of the PSNI was murdered.

Culturally, Irish has much to add, it has contributed to life on this island.
To completely ignore a culture with which you do not agree leads to ignorance of others views.
Ignorance leads to mis-understanding and conflict.

Nelson Mandella learnt Afrikaans - a bloody hard language - for that very reason.

Speaking Irish, out here at least, has no political connotations, its just a fact of life.

Having an understanding of another language opens up new doors into music, literature and other avenues of interest, its worthwhile.

Don't forget the main people in reviving gaelic cultural life included many of the Anglo-Irish Church of Ireland establishment like Douglas Hyde, Lady Gregory, Countess Markevitz and others.

The first gaelic I saw in roman script was a presbeterian bible from Scotland, in galic, a very close linguistic relative, we did not catch up until the 1960's

So you spoke english and learn't irish, so english is your native language. The bible would've been in scottish.

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Perhaps you should open your eyes more then and pay more attention to what else goes on. You live there yet you dont know either.

yes i do i know people like that who told our re teacher that their priest told them who to vote for, that the simpsons were protestants and all this crap.

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

yes i do i know people like that who told our re teacher that their priest told them who to vote for, that the simpsons were protestants and all this crap.

What?

simonj

Sorry if you did not understand what I said earlier
I am bi-lingual, I aquired both through childhood - I did not learn one and then the other - sorry that you have trouble with that concept.
It's not unusual - surely you know someone with one english speaking parent and, say, a german or french parent? They would in general speak both languages

I speak both English and Irish, the language used depends on the circumstances of the case, and I dont get the effort to pidgeon hole me on a linguistic basis.

The roman script bible was Scots Galic, very close to Irish, like Dutch and Flemish.
As an example Swiss German and German would be further apart linguisticly, as would the Dutch dialects of Zeu and Fries.

The point I wanted to make is that many non-catholic people were native Irish speakers, and I am sure many catholics were english speaking.

simonj

owenc wrote: »

yes i do i know people like that who told our re teacher that their priest told them who to vote for, that the simpsons were protestants and all this crap.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What?

I'm starting to understand what Rebel said and share Musso's confusion, please at least learn to conjugate a verb and construct a sentence!!

Your not from Carolina are you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

No its not, and i have yet to see people speaking irish in derry and if they do its some republican idiot trying to turn Northern Ireland into something its not.

Some republican idiot trying to turn it into something it's not? Irish was spoken in Ireland long before English ever was heard or spoken. Derry had a strong gaeltacht prior to partition - it is under Unionist governance that the last strongholds of Irish in the north have weakened.

When you say "Something it's not" - What you really mean is, "Not Unionist". Your lack of tolerance for any other culture, except your own is a dangerous and backwards mindset.

owenc wrote: »

Tbh i'm not really intrested in irish because in my opinion it is an old tired language which i would have no need in learning, and for irish culture i'm not interested in that because i don't like it.

Look, a language can't be tired. It is not a living creature, and thus cannot have feelings of lethargy. It is an old language, but so are all languages - with the exception of Esperanto. That is not a valid excuse. If you don't want to learn it, that's fine - but your views do not dictate it's future. There are two communities, and one of them by large has a respect for the Irish language.

The Irish language is growing stronger, in the north especially. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not happening.

owenc wrote: »

Well in my opinion anyone that learns irish and plays galeic in Northern Ireland is very bitter, and that seems to be very true as the ones in my school who play it all run the british down to the lowest.

That's an arse-backwards view to have. It's views like this that really halt progress in the north.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

So you spoke english and learn't irish, so english is your native language. The bible would've been in scottish.

A person can have two or more native languages.

There is no language called "Scottish". There is Scottish Gaelic, which is derived from the middle Irish language, and there is Scots which is derived from middle English.