When & How could there be a united Ireland?

Notorious97

donegalfella wrote: »

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This isnt a typical situation where you can say 'its only free speech and freedom of movement' about it. This march incites violence, it is sectarian also, im not excusing the rioting for a moment. They wouldnt like Republicans marching through their streets as a poster said earliar in memory of dead fenians and republicans.

when it comes to this sort of a parade, common sense should prevail and tell them no you cannot march through that nationalist area as there will be riots over it. I really dont see whats so difficult in telling them no! common sense seems to be lacking at the top levels in the planning of these parades.

I dont see why on earth they cannot march and celebrate their 'victory' in their own areas, then nobody would give a ****e! Thugs wouldnt have a reason to riot, and if they did they wouldnt have the slightest excuse as to why they are doing it. Only progress that will be made is if both sides talk, OO agrees not to march through catholic areas, at the trouble spots, and everybody can go about their business as usual.

Noreen1

oscarBravo wrote: »

Meh. The good people of Donegal seem to consider their local Orangies pretty harmless. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by setting them up as evil bogeymen, other than to perpetuate divisions between communities.

Ignore them and they'll get a hell of a lot less relevant in a hurry.

In all fairness, the situation in Donegal is vastly different to the one just across the border.
In Donegal, we have had several generations of living together in peace.
We also have a more integrated community, where, again, generations of the same family have lived side by side with those of different persuasions - and generally helped one another out in times of trouble.

There are those in the North who want peace. There are also those who don't! Some people have been so badly hurt that their scars will not heal. That goes for both sides.

There also remains, even among those who want peace, an undercurrent of mistrust and fear. IMO, it is a combination of hurt from past injustices, and fear that is going to take some considerable time to heal. If I had spent my whole life not knowing whether my door was going to get kicked in during the night, and a family member shot - I'd be afraid of members of the "Unionist" community. I'm pretty sure "Unionists" were afraid of the "Nationalist community" for the exact same reason.

I approached an elderly woman in Northern Ireland about 15 years ago, to ask directions.
I was in a less than peaceful loyalist area, and with Irish plates on the car, I was anxious to leave it!! Her initial reaction was fear, (I'm pretty petite, and she wouldn't let me get closer than three yards), followed by amazement that I would speak to her! She made a point of checking why I was in the area, and on being reassured that I had a legitimate reason for being there, she asked directly why I was both willing, and unafraid to chat to her. She also expressed some concern for my safety, and ended the conversation by telling me I was the first "Nationalist" she had ever had a conversation with.:) The tragic part of it is, I was about 15 miles across the border - and in a different world!!

Things have moved on a lot since then. Even yet, though, there is mistrust.
I got myself in the unfortunate situation of being diverted from the main road about two years ago. Darn GPS refused to recognise the "Stop" signs on the road, and I ended up driving in circles for about five minutes round housing estates before finding my way. I would have asked directions, but certain graffiti painted on footpaths suggested I'd be less than welcome with DL plates on the car!! (I'm far from being cowardly, by the way, but I do have some sense of self-preservation, and a freshly painted "Taig b*st*rds out!" does not suggest a welcome!)
The second time through one particular estate, I picked up a tail - a carload of men who followed at a distance until I made my way back to the main road, then turned and went back the way they came.

Sorry for the long-winded post, I just wanted to illustrate that Donegal is not the North - it's about 80 years of peace ahead of where the North is right now.
How long it will take Northern Ireland to get to where Donegal is now, remains to be seen. Some areas are getting there faster than others. One thing is for sure, though, it has a long way to go, yet!

Noreen

getz

the march through nationalist area should not have been allowed,but the only people who have the power to ban it ,is the northern irish power sharing goverment,today local a SF spokesman has said,;this [rioting] has nothing to do with SF voters this is a dissident republican rent a mob;,these people do not want a united ireland at any cost,and i now think many irish people now can see it, their only goal is to make things so bad for the police that british troops have to come back,i believe its not only up to the UK to stop these criminals but also up to the irish goverment to spell it out,i know the gardia is doing its best,

Permabear

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oscarBravo

donegalfella wrote: »

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QFT.

LordSutch

The title of this thread is; When & How could there be a united Ireland? > but in reality, what would 'United Ireland' be? What is the Republican vision of a UI? and what is the Nationalist ideal for a UI? There is sooooo much talk about wanting a 'United Ireland' on Boards.ie, but what would the reality be for the North, and for the whole island?

Hypothesis:
The Tricolour flying over City Hall in Belfast, An Garda Siochana policing the streets of Belfast, Derry, Lurgan, Enniskillen, Strabane, etc, etc. Irish to be taught in all NI schools (as per the Southern system), One flag "Tricolour", One National Anthem "Amhrán na bhFiann" to be sung at all NI Rugby matches & Football matches (inc Windsor Park) + one head of state who sits in Dublin . . . . .

Is the above what's meant by a 'United Ireland', is this what Irish Nationalists really crave for? is the above the Republican utopia? When you lay it down in black & white it does seem pretty far fetched, and I strongly suspect, there might even be a few obstacles or 'hitches' along the way.

Notorious97

A United Ireland would mean a new Ireland, Im pretty sure a new flag would have to be created as i doubt the Unionists would want the Tricolour, although in my opinion the Tricolour is a fitting flag for Ireland as the colours symbolise the nation. Flags and Anthems though are minor details in the grand scheme of things.

As for a new Parliament, i think the only realistic option is a federal republic type of government. I think all of us republicans on this board agree lobbing a handful of extra TDs into the Dáil is not the answer as the system we have now in the 26 county state doesn’t work well at all! A united Ireland would mean one Police force, the Gardaí i would expect to be patrolling the country fully. I think most of this has been mentioned in previous posts.

At the end of the day until both communities up in the 6 counties can peacefully ive side by side we wont have progress on this front. I think Unionists would have a greater say in a United Ireland than they currently do in the UK.

CMACSAFF

As somebody from the North who would consider themselves an ardent Northern Nationalist - the only conceivable United Ireland that is both feasible and wanted is one where all parties agree.

Unionists, loyalists, nationalists and most importantly the South. That's an ideal and dependant on all the issues mentioned here being resolved. Its also the only All Ireland worth having and its not one I expect to see (much as I would love to) in my lifetime if ever.

The major obstacle I see (apart from the obvious) is economic - its simply not feasible. And all the recreational rioters in Ardoyne would be the first to scream if they were asked to pay for it.

As far as I am concerned a lot of the trouble in the North stems from a huge and in built sense of deep insecurity about identity. Nationalists look with envy at the South and their sense of Irishness and while we will aggressively argue they are every bit as Irish the fact that we live in the UK undermines this. Its not even logical. I'm living in the South 10 years and still feel it. Its exactly the same for Unionists and wont be resolved until we can find a common identity which from what I am reading lately seems to be emerging.

If a shared identity emerges which way will it go would be the next question. I have Protestant friends who consider themselves Irish and in no way British and I have Catholic friends who couldnt care less about a United Ireland.

All that said I will never vote for any Southern party that doesn't have Irish unity as a political objective - even if its an unachievable one.

Jaap

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There is a simple explanation why there is little controversy in Dún na nGall, that is not part of the British controlled state, has not suffered injustices at the hands of an Orange state, those parades in that location have little present day relevance. Unlike the contentious ones.

Little controversy in where??? ...Dublin???

Jaap

Good to see that the PSNI say that they will be making a lot of arrests due to the recreational rioting and attempted murders of their officers over the last few days!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10624559

Get the scum off the streets of Northern Ireland!!! And get back to some sense of normality...particularly for the poor residents of Ardoyne and the shopkeepers up there who have had to put up with the mayhem for the last few years!!!!

The shocking things though is that kids as young as 10 were involved....where are their parents???

Permabear

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Notorious97

donegalfella wrote: »

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I never got the whole 'you cant be republican and like a british football team' opinion. I follow Manchester United, i always have and i always will, Manchester United arent occupying Northern Ireland and didnt play any part in murdering innocent Irish people over how many years.

Irish people like plenty of goods and sports teams from foreign countries, I have an Ipod for example, that doesnt make me pro american though!

CMACSAFF

I don't think all-party agreement is possible, or even desirable—but we should strive for a future in which disagreements and differences can be worked out in a civil, democratic, mutually tolerant way. A bit of political maturity would not go awry in the North.

I agree but what I mean is that there would have to be a buy in from large majorities of all the interested parties.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is there a rationale in any "free" society for banning Racist parades?



If people in the North could simply turn a blind eye to displays of crass, bellicose triumphalism, the tradition of sectarian parading would probably have died out long ago. It just isn't much fun parading through a nationalist street when you aren't getting a rise out of the locals.[/QUOTE]



These are more than parades. I explained this in the post that you took this quote from. Ill paste it here again so its more difficult for you to ignore.

Antagonism is not really as a result of the actual parades. It is as a result of what the parade means in Northern Ireland. The parades are the rub your noses in it time, for the economic and political superiority of the Protestant/British ethnic group in the Zero Sum game in Northern Ireland. Ignoring the parade will make no difference. It is the outward statement of protestant anti-catholic sectarianism in NI .........has been there since the ancient planter and Gael conflict.

donegalfella wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. Local communities don't have the right to block people from passing through their area. The street is public property.

The authorities have the right to though. If a parade is no more than an attack on a populations religion or skincolour then it should be stopped. Otherwise people dont have the right to practice a ceratin religion or be a certain skincolour without being harassed and insulted for it.
This is no more an attack on freedom to walk the street than slander is on peoples freedom to speak.
Would slander be tolerated in your "free" society BTW?

Wolfe Tone

Would those be the same Southerners who wear Man United T-shirts, read The Sun, and watch EastEnders?

I have always felt that that argument is a stupid one. Myself watching man utd on a Saturday afternoon has nothing to do with politics.
The exact same way I wanted NK to beat Brazil, nothing to do with politics, it is football.

Little controversy in where??? ...Dublin???

Donegal. Dún na nGall is the Irish name for it.

T runner

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Donegal. Dún na nGall is the Irish name for it.

I think he knows that as well as you or I. Hes just being a little dishonest and patronising .

Wolfe Tone

T runner wrote: »

I think he knows that as well as you or I. Hes just being a little dishonest and patronising .

Perhaps, benefit of the doubt and all that....

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Donegalfella. This is the same rhetoric that is meted out by many southerners and some northerners. You need to undertsand the roots of sectarianism in the north to understand the issues there. Catholics have been politically, economically and socially excluded in NI. They have not really been in a position to erase the historical records and cultural traditions of the other.

Anti-catholicism, both covenental and seculat has been used as a reason for segregating society and as a tool for mobilising protestants in times of need.

There has been anti-Protestantism but this has been more in the form of anti-Britishness which Ulster Protestants regard as the same thing.

In fact Ulster Protestants usually refer to the ROI for examples of anti-protestant social exclusion. Their argument is usually weak because although some southern protestants may feel culturally distant from the southern state they are certanly not socially excluded or disadvantaged.

Sectarianism amongst Ulster covenental protestants is not an irrational believe by its adherents. Rather they believe it is a true and fair interpretation of their protestantism.
The existance of the northern state is a manifestation of Gods promise to Ulster Protestants of land and blessings.
Relations are generally not permitted with ordinary catholics.

The conflict in the north can be seen as a zero-sum problem with the social cleavage reflecting protestants ability to divide and maintain divisions based on anti-catholicism. Catholic reaction to this when agressive is used as a tool to justifying the original anti-catholocism.

The right to live in the North does not include the right to oust those with whom one disagrees ideologically.

But it does include the right to dominate and exclude them politically, socially and economically and to harass and insult them.

Someone may be deeply opposed to the idea of homosexual relations and gay rights. He may find it offensive to his religion that gays and lesbians are marching through his neighbourhood, demanding the right to get married

You are not comparing like with like. Gays are not complaining about the existance or sexuality of straight people.

But the appropriate response to a gay pride march is not to lob petrol bombs at it, or to block the road so that gays can't pass through conservative Christian areas, or to go to legislators demanding that the parade be banned because anti-gay-rights activists can't control their emotions. All of those responses would be hyperbolic and juvenile.

Ridiculous. The correct analogy would be the state allowing racist marches through black areas. Calls for such parades to be banned would certainly not be juvenile. These parades could be viewed as an incitement to riot or at the very least as an abomination to racial freedom.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

The title of this thread is; When & How could there be a united Ireland? > but in reality, what would 'United Ireland' be? What is the Republican vision of a UI? and what is the Nationalist ideal for a UI? There is sooooo much talk about wanting a 'United Ireland' on Boards.ie, but what would the reality be for the North, and for the whole island?

Hypothesis:
The Tricolour flying over City Hall in Belfast, An Garda Siochana policing the streets of Belfast, Derry, Lurgan, Enniskillen, Strabane, etc, etc. Irish to be taught in all NI schools (as per the Southern system), One flag "Tricolour", One National Anthem "Amhrán na bhFiann" to be sung at all NI Rugby matches & Football matches (inc Windsor Park) + one head of state who sits in Dublin . . . . .

Is the above what's meant by a 'United Ireland', is this what Irish Nationalists really crave for? is the above the Republican utopia? When you lay it down in black & white it does seem pretty far fetched, and I strongly suspect, there might even be a few obstacles or 'hitches' along the way.

You have raised a valid point. An all Ireland state should not be just an extension of the ROI: it would have to be an agreed state.

Probably some form of secular republic (there are plenty of protestant republicans in NI: not taking about Sinn Fein) but more akin to the republic of France.


Flags anthems etc would have to be changed but these are minor issues .

It would be an interesting hypothetical question to ask Protestants (northern or southern) what type of country they would feel comfortable in. The idea of self determination amongst protestants is so strong that some in the past have suggested a federal republic (4 provinces) should no option exist but a united Ireland.

I dont know if 4 provinces is viable but a 7 county province taking in Donegal might be attractive for people from the north and would make a more natural demarcation for a federal option.

Wolfe Tone

I outlined a few pages back what the RSF want.


Personally as I have stated I think that a federal state is the fairest and best way.

Noreen1

T runner wrote: »

It would be an interesting hypothetical question to ask Protestants (northern or southern) what type of country they would feel comfortable in. The idea of self determination amongst protestants is so strong that some in the past have suggested a federal republic (4 provinces) should no option exist but a united Ireland.

I dont know if 4 provinces is viable but a 7 county province taking in Donegal might be attractive for people from the north and would make a more natural demarcation for a federal option.

Whoa! Would the people of Donegal have any say in the matter? Or is it just the Ulster Protestants who should decide our fate?

Noreen

T runner

Noreen1 wrote: »

Whoa! Would the people of Donegal have any say in the matter? Or is it just the Ulster Protestants who should decide our fate?

Noreen

Sorry Noreen! there would have to be a referendum in NI, Eire and above all Donegal itself before that happened ofcourse:)

getz

T runner wrote: »

Sorry Noreen! there would have to be a referendum in NI, Eire and above all Donegal itself before that happened ofcourse:)

that brings up a question,if northern ireland has its referendum and decides to have a united ireland,and the south decides in its referendom it does not want them,[most of my irish friends do not seem to want anything to do with them and their troubles] how do you think the nationalist/republican/ and loyalist elements in the north would react ?

Noreen1

getz wrote: »

that brings up a question,if northern ireland has its referendum and decides to have a united ireland,and the south decides in its referendom it does not want them,[most of my irish friends do not seem to want anything to do with them and their troubles] how do you think the nationalist/republican/ and loyalist elements in the north would react ?

I suppose it would depend on the timing of said referendum, wouldn't it?
ie. If said referendum happened next month, and had the outcome you suggested, then I would guess that Nationalists would feel betrayed and insulted. I would also guess that some Unionists would be elated, while some would probably also feel offended, maybe not from any desire for a United Ireland, but at the idea of being rejected. It's hard to say, though!

I think it's pretty fair to say that most Irish people would not reject a United Ireland - but would certainly be concerned at the idea of the kind of sectarianism and violence that has happened in the North happening here. We're way past the days of the civil war - why would we want to go back there?

I also suspect that there would be a reluctance to drag people kicking and screaming into a United Ireland, if there wasn't a very clear majority in favour of it in the North. That's just my opinion, though.

Noreen

Notorious97

It will be a glorious day when it happens

briany

What I'd really really like to know is "When and how could this thread be stickied?"

Doing a pretty half ar*ed search in the politics forum, I've found five quite/very large threads devoted to this very subject making the same points over and over (even my point has already been made, but it's worth making again)and similarly worded in the title banner. This is entirely besides the seemingly monthly thread they have about this on After Hours that isn't always as civil.....


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835983

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055509823

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055397127

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055393986

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055376988

What is this thread saying that hasn't been touched upon in the ones listed above?

I say if we cannot have a United Ireland, let's at least have a uniting of the United Ireland threads!!

IPRIreland

briany wrote: »

What I'd really really like to know is "When and how could this thread be stickied?"

Doing a pretty half ar*ed search in the politics forum, I've found five quite/very large threads devoted to this very subject making the same points over and over (even my point has already been made, but it's worth making again)and similarly worded in the title banner. This is entirely besides the seemingly monthly thread they have about this on After Hours that isn't always as civil.....


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835983

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055509823

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055397127

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055393986

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055376988

What is this thread saying that hasn't been touched upon in the ones listed above?

I say if we cannot have a United Ireland, let's at least have a uniting of the United Ireland threads!!

Absolutely. There should definitely be one, definitive thread with the pros and cons listed at the top of the forum. I feel maintaining it would be a full time job though. The subject of a United Ireland probably needs it's own separate sub-forum in order to give each sides concerns and ideas a chance to be noticed and discussed adequately.

getz

Noreen1 wrote: »

I suppose it would depend on the timing of said referendum, wouldn't it?
ie. If said referendum happened next month, and had the outcome you suggested, then I would guess that Nationalists would feel betrayed and insulted. I would also guess that some Unionists would be elated, while some would probably also feel offended, maybe not from any desire for a United Ireland, but at the idea of being rejected. It's hard to say, though!

I think it's pretty fair to say that most Irish people would not reject a United Ireland - but would certainly be concerned at the idea of the kind of sectarianism and violence that has happened in the North happening here. We're way past the days of the civil war - why would we want to go back there?

I also suspect that there would be a reluctance to drag people kicking and screaming into a United Ireland, if there wasn't a very clear majority in favour of it in the North. That's just my opinion, though.

Noreen

a optimistic date for a referemdum [by the so called experts] is 2016 just over 5 years away,i cannot see the 49% of the unionist population excepting fully a united ireland without a fight,as the UK has to except the majority outcome,it would be left to the republic to police the now six counties,as the brits couldent police it,the republic would have no chance, in the last couple of days the rioting has cost the goverment over £3 million,

IPRIreland

Even if did go to vote and passed in both states, you probably wouldn't see a complete transition for at least 10 years..... and that's not including any possible violence that might result (and historically, has resulted) from decolonization.

Noreen1

getz wrote: »

a optimistic date for a referemdum [by the so called experts] is 2016 just over 5 years away,i cannot see the 49% of the unionist population excepting fully a united ireland without a fight

Neither can I! But, you never know what the future will bring. What will happen if, for example 51% of Unionists are willing to accept it? (I just chose that figure out of thin air - obviously, I have no idea how many Unionists would accept it.)

Noreen