When & How could there be a united Ireland?

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

Why would the Orange Order not want their Parades to pass off peacefully? surely they don't want rocks & missiles hurled in their direction? please explain your theory.

Why have they objected to the proposals that the SF&DUP have presented to them as a working solution to these kind of disputes?

That to me is they do not want compromise which is an anti-peace position.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

Why would the Orange Order not want their Parades to pass off peacefully? surely they don't want rocks & missiles hurled in their direction? please explain your theory.

One of the intentions of the Orange Order parades is to antagonise and upset the dominated community in the zero-sum situation in NI.

Violence etc re-affirms that this has suceeded.

Until the Orange order can demonstrate that there is not an undercurrent of sectarian antagonism to these parades then these parades should not be allowed down the streets populated by people the inherent sectarianism is aimed at. In fact I would argue that they should not be allowed down any street and should be banned outright.

Wolfe Tone

Camelot wrote: »

I was under the impression that the Parades commission gave the 'Go ahead' for the Ardoyne march, hence the Police quite correctly clearing the way for the parade. I just hope & pray that the WPC (hit with a concrete slab) is OK and makes a full recovery. Objecting to a Parade/March is one thing, but petrol bombing & stoning the Police is quite another, and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. The PSNI are too soft IMO.

Ah here.... what do you want them to do? They have tried being "harder" in the past and look what that got us....

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

In fact I would argue that they should not be allowed down any street and should be banned outright.

That's a nice even-handed compromise. A peaceful united Ireland is surely only weeks away.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

I get the impression that the marches have become even more important to the Orange tradition up North simply because they perceive their 'Orangeism' to be under constant threat (which is probably true). I am not a supporter of the tradition myself, "but that's their thing", in the same way as the Shinners march with their own brand of pipe bands & black garb (black barrets & sun glasses inc).

I disagree. All marches with sectarian undertones should be banned outright.

Firstly, lets not equate Orangism with Protestantism, there are many tens of thousands of protestants both North & South on this island who are not of the Orange tradition!

Unfortunately by the high % of Ulster protestants who are also members of the OO, some equation is valid.

but certainly there are many Northern Irish Protestants who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Orange Order.

And many more who have unfortunately

The 'hate' is on both sides,

NI is a society whode ethnicity is defined along religious lines. There is anti-catholicism at the Theological, Political and Economic levels.

The OO was actually formed as a reaction to a threat against Catholic domination of the linen industry.

Anti-catholicism has been used as a resource many times. When non-sectarian forms of class mobilisation seemed to be successful in advancing the position of the Catholic working class, such as during the Catholic Civil Rights marches in the late 1960s it was reacted to viciously by the Protestant population.

As David Irvine said:

Sectarianism is a flower that’s cultivated, nurtured, and owes its origins to
historical circumstances and socio-political causes. I dislike use of the term
because it suggests the conflict is about religion, when it’s about politics. I
prefer the term ‘tribalism’: religion is used to keep people in tribes. Tribalism
is like piss down the leg, it initially gives a warm glow but it quickly goes cold. Some people use fear of the Pope and papal conspiracies in order to keep the problem as a two-party zero-sum conflict. Certain Unionists create tribalism, through creating fear, in order to keep people in their entrenched positions.

Continued hatred suits the protestant side of the zero-sum battle far more than the catholic side.

P.S. Looking at the video clip below, I don't know how anybody thinks the two sides are going to Unite anytime soon.

Not under British juristiction at least.

Wolfe Tone

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a nice even-handed compromise. A peaceful united Ireland is surely only weeks away.

Personally I feel that the parades should only be allowed with the full support of the communities and areas that it passes through. I think thats fair.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

Unfortunately by the high % of Ulster protestants who are also members of the OO, some equation is valid.

What percentage of Ulster protestants are members of the OO?

Jaap

gurramok wrote: »

Heavens knows why they keep granting permission that parade and yet there is violence every year. If the PSNI were harder, it will draw a harder response from the rioters and draw more people to go against them. They were proportionate in the response as they have to tread carefully not to be seen as supporting one side over the other.

We'll know next year what the story is as the Parade's Commission will be disbanded and decisions will be made upon what the SF&DUP joint working committee decide.

The Orange Order is against the SF&DUP working committee, thats a signal they do not want their parades to pass off peacefully.

You can not allow the threat of violence to dedicate decisions!!! We have had enough of that in Northern Ireland!!!

The PSNI should not always sit back and allow people who are not even from the area wreck roads and burn cars belonging to the locals!!! If I lived in Ardoyne near to the shop fronts I would move out of the area...not because of the Orange parades, but because of hoods who are not even my neighbours using my garden and street as a playground for vandalism, agression, and causing mayhem with petrol bombs etc!!!

The Orange Order do want parades to pass off peacefully I think...none of their members threw petrol bombs or stones yesterday...or threw concrete on to a PSNI woman's head...or shot at police!!!

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a nice even-handed compromise. A peaceful united Ireland is surely only weeks away.

What does a United Ireland have to do with it? Sectarian marches against any religion should not be permitted in a tolerant state. There's your even handedness.

Jaap

gurramok wrote: »

I'm surprised you do not know why the rioting spread. Solidarity with Ardoyne was probably the reason. The PSNI forced people from the road to cater for the Orange parade and that does not go down well as it has echoes of Garvaghy in 1998.

I'm also very surprised that you have the welfare of Ardoyne residents in your mind.

Solidarity with Ardoyne...solidarity with a riot???

I have the welfare of all citizens of Northern Ireland who have a war zone going on out the front of their houses caused by hoods whose sole intention is to cause damage and injure people!!!

Some of these hoods aren't even from the area!!! They have probably travelled miles to be offended by a parade where no music was allowed to be played and numbers were restricted!!!

We want a shared future in Northern Ireland...not intolerance and rioting by scum!!!

Wolfe Tone

What we have here is akin to a KKK parade through a black community. Their sectarian hatred and triumphalism is not wanted. Of course people will react with anger.

Some of these hoods aren't even from the area!!! They have probably travelled miles to be offended by a parade where no music was allowed to be played and numbers were restricted!!!

We want a shared future in Northern Ireland...not intolerance and rioting by scum!!!

Nationalists for the most part realize that there is strength in unity and numbers.

What about the sit down protesters who were dragged from the streets? There is intolerance shown towards the OO because, quite frankly, what they do is intolerable. Of course violence is not the answer, but time and time again the OO have shown contempt towards compromise, and the diplomatic process, and things such as the parades commission.

Jaap

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I feel that the parades should only be allowed with the full support of the communities and areas that it passes through. I think thats fair.

So what you are saying is certain religions own particular roads in Northern Ireland so...protestants own roads lived on by protestants...catholics own roads lived on by catholics!!!
Does that mean if a protestant wants to move to a house in a street where catholics dominate then they can veto whether he can live there???
Where is the shared society creating no-go areas for certain groups of people???

Jaap

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What we have here is akin to a KKK parade through a black community. Their sectarian hatred and triumphalism is not wanted. Of course people will react with anger.


Nationalists for the most part realize that there is strength in unity and numbers.

What about the sit down protesters who were dragged from the streets? There is intolerance shown towards the OO because, quite frankly, what they do is intolerable. Of course violence is not the answer, but time and time again the OO have shown contempt towards compromise, and the diplomatic process, and things such as the parades commission.

Are people not allowed to walk back to their houses from the city centre...the same route they took in the morning where there was dignified peaceful protest!!! A bit of road which is shop fronts on one side and about 10 houses on the other...the Orange Order is walking from one protestant area to another through about 100 metres of mostly commercial land!!! There was to be no music played and numbers of paraders was to be restricted!!!
What do you want the police to do with the sitdown protesters...they were in the way of the restricted march that had been allowed by the Parades Commission!!! The sitdown protesters were breaking the law!!!
The Orange Order have compromised...have you seen how many of their parades have been banned or re-routed in the last few years!!! One such re-routed parade is the Lower Ormeau Road...and hoods who call themselves nationalists rioted there!!! WHat do nationalists want for flip sake!!!
Some people in Northern Ireland seem to not want to stop until there are no Orange Order parades!!! Which is sad as we are trying to have a shared society in the north where as Sinn Fein say everyone is equal!!!

T runner

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I feel that the parades should only be allowed with the full support of the communities and areas that it passes through. I think thats fair.

Do you mean only areas where there are 100% protestant populations?
Are there any? What percentage of catholics is low enough to have to endure sectarian parades against them in their neighbourhood?

Jaap wrote: »

So what you are saying is certain religions own particular roads in Northern Ireland so...protestants own roads lived on by protestants...catholics own roads lived on by catholics!!!
Does that mean if a protestant wants to move to a house in a street where catholics dominate then they can veto whether he can live there???
Where is the shared society creating no-go areas for certain groups of people???

Exactly. That is why sectarian parades should be banned from all areas of any tolerant society. By allowing them go through certain areas, as well as tolerating sectarianism you are ensuring its continuity by promoting segregation. Catholics would be discouraged from living in prtestant dominated communities because anti-catholic parades take place there.

The existance of these parades is one of the existing reasons why segregation/sectarianism in communities will continue to demise only at a very slow rate if at all.

Wolfe Tone

Jaap wrote: »

Are people not allowed to walk back to their houses from the city centre...the same route they took in the morning where there was dignified peaceful protest!!! A bit of road which is shop fronts on one side and about 10 houses on the other...the Orage Order is walking from one protestant area to another through about 100 metres of mostly commercial land!!!
What do you want the police to do with the sitdown protesters...they were in the way of the restricted march that had been allowed by the Parades Commission!!! The sitdown protesters were breaking the law!!!
The Orange Order have compromised...have you seen how many of their parades have been banned or re-routed in the last few years!!! One such re-routed parade is the Lower Ormeau Road...and hoods who call themselves nationalists rioted there!!! WHat do nationalists want for flip sake!!!
Some people in Northern Ireland seem to not want to stop until there are no Orange Order parades!!! Which is sad as we are trying to have a shared society in the north where as Sinn Fein say everyone is equal!!!

I agree 100% with the sit down protesters and commend them.

Areas in some of the 6 counties are effectively divided into protestant and catholic areas. For safety reasons, safety in numbers. The OO should NOT be allowed to march through nationalist areas without approval of that community.

They didn't do those things by choice, did they? Why wont they engage with republicans? Some want no OO parades, others want them confined to areas where they are wanted and welcome.

Do you mean only areas where there are 100% protestant populations?
Are there any? What percentage of catholics is low enough to have to endure sectarian parades against them in their neighbourhood?

Dozens of parades went off without any or very small, incidents. Why is that do you think?

Jaap

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I agree 100% with the sit down protesters and commend them.

Areas is some of the 6 counties are effectively divided into protestant and catholic areas. For safety reasons, safety in numbers. The OO should NOT be allowed to march through nationalist areas without approval of that community.

They didn't do those things by choice, did they? Why wont they engage with republicans? Some want no OO parades, others want them confined to areas where they are wanted and welcome.

People are entitled to protest...but not riot and attack property and people!!!
The majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want areas divided...there is great community work being done in Belfast across the religious divide...including between Ardoyne and surrounding protestant areas....hoods who come in to Ardoyne solely to cause mayhem do nothing for building bridges!!!
The Orange Order and Hibernians and whatever other non-violent organisation should be able to walk anywhere in Northern Ireland...hoods should not be able to hold areas or Northern Ireland to ransom!!!
People should be able to celibrate being British or Irish in Northern Ireland!!! After all we both live in the same country!!!
Until things happen like the above few lines you have to go with the Parades Commission or Police...and abide by the law...simple as!!!
The Orange Order were entitled to march by the Ardoyne shop front and I am glad they did...and the rioters did not succeed stopping them!!!
Once again I feel sorry for the normal residents of Ardoyne...shop keepers there and the police!!!
And I hope the rioters get found and dealt severely with in the courts!!!
It is all about tolerating each other side's tradition and culture...which obviously some hoods in Northern Ireland can not do!!!

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

What percentage of Ulster protestants are members of the OO?

There are about 30,000 members so 15-20% of young protestant men.

There are no non-protestants allowed within the OO and it promotes the teaching of protestant theology. Ex Roman Catholics must serve a number of years in a protestant faith, before a 75% majority in a lodge decides if they have been sufficiently de-contaminated to join.

I believe an equation with Ulster protestantism is valid.

I also recognise that many Ulster protestants who do not share the fundamentalist views of the Orange Order.

Wolfe Tone

Jaap wrote: »

People are entitled to protest...but not riot and attack property and people!!!
The majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want areas divided...there is great community work being done in Belfast across the religious divide...including between Ardoyne and surrounding protestant areas....hoods who come in to Ardoyne solely to cause mayhem do nothing for building bridges!!!
The Orange Order and Hibernians and whatever other non-violent organisation should be able to walk anywhere in Northern Ireland...hoods should not be able to hold areas or Northern Ireland to ransom!!!
People should be able to celibrate being British or Irish!!!
Until things happen like the above few lines you have to go with the Parades Commission or Police...and abide by the law...simple as!!!
The Orange Order were entitled to march by the Ardoyne shop front and I am glad they did...and the rioters did not succeed stopping them!!!
Once again I feel sorry for the normal residents of Ardoyne...shop keepers there and the police!!!
And I hope the rioters get found and dealt severely with in the courts!!!
It is all about tolerating each other side's tradition and culture...which obviously some hoods in Northern Ireland can not do!!!

I totally disagree. The OO insist on marching to provoke people. It is simply a "in your face, we can march here, we are in charge". It has been that way for decades. They should only march were they are wanted.
The OO are a disgustingly bigoted and sectarian organisation.

I feel sorry for the nationalist residents who are forced to either remain in their houses, or leave the area at this time every year. It is terrible. The OO is to blame. They should march were they are wanted, it is better for everyone that way.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

What does a United Ireland have to do with it?

I'm trying to stay on topic.

...should not be permitted in a tolerant state.

This phrase on its own makes me smile, for some reason.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

There are about 30,000 members so 15-20% of young protestant men.

Only if all its members are young men, which I somehow doubt.

I believe an equation with Ulster protestantism is valid.

I also recognise that many Ulster protestants who do not share the fundamentalist views of the Orange Order.

It seems to me that these statements are mutually contradictory.

T runner

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Dozens of parades went off without any or very small, incidents. Why is that do you think?

You tell me. Possibly there is a small population of catholics relative to protestants in these areas but that is not a reason to tolerate sectarian marches against religious groups.

Is sectarianism accepteable when it is only targetted against a small percentage of a local population? If so then why?

The only reason could be that if all sectarian marches were banned there would be widespread civil disturbances by the protestant population. The reason given would be that it is an attack on their culture.

Do you see? Banning sectarian parades is viewed as an attack on Ulster protestant culture.

Anti-catholicism is not a result of the conflict. It is endemic in Ulster protestant cultural identity.

Just because some action is part of a culture does not mean it is desireable for a tolerant society nor should it be untouchable if it is discriminatory in nature.

Wolfe Tone

To get all the parades banned is simply unrealistic, wont happen. What we need is compromise, in this case not going through nationalist areas without the approval of said area.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Only if all its members are young men, which I somehow doubt.

No. If most are that percentage would hold true. From what Ive read, most are.

It seems to me that these statements are mutually contradictory

Not really. All members of OO are Ulster protestants. Not all Ulster Protestants are members of OO or fundamentalist. Not all Ulster protestants are practicing either.

Earlier, you seemed to pour scorn over the idea that Orange marches should be banned in all communities.

When I pointed out that sectarian marches should not be allowed to take place in a tolerant society you remained silent.

Do you believe that sectarian marches should be allowed or not?
Perhaps you believe taht OO marches are not sectarian?

I seem to remember you saying some time ago on a different thread that NI was a basketcase and you didnt want it anywhere near the Republic.

Are your opinions on NI more sophisticated now?

T runner

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

To get all the parades banned is simply unrealistic, wont happen. What we need is compromise, in this case not going through nationalist areas without the approval of said area.

That may be true, but this raises the important issue of why banning sectarian marches in a society striving to be tolerant is not possible?

Why cant these marches be banned?

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm trying to stay on topic. This phrase on its own makes me smile, for some reason.

Lets here the reason then. Do you believe that sectarian marches should take place in a tolerant state or not?
Or do you try to be clever and aloof when faced with a truism which may not suit your world view?

Wolfe Tone

T runner wrote: »

That may be true, but this raises the important issue of why banning sectarian marches in a society striving to be tolerant is not possible?

Why cant these marches be banned?

Because it would probably destabilize the peace process, UVF etc would return and many would view them as "protecting the right to march".


No, a blanket ban will not work, or happen. Not anytime soon anyway.

bigbadbear

As a proud Irishman I don't want anything to do with them filthy scumbags in the north. they can riot all they want and bend over for the queen for the rest of their days as far as I care.

This whole debate i think pivots around the main challenge of actually getting the people in the republic to accept the north. I would say 90% of people would vote no if it was debated in public. We all have an inbuilt urge to instantly say it would be wonderful to have UI but when you think about it do the people of the republic want to have the unionists? I reckon we don't keep them in the north and the republic remains much more Irish. Comes down to a mixture of greed and common sense.

Anyone who thinks it could happen in our lifetime is unfortunately living in dreamland.


This is a side note and not intended to off topic the thread:
The world will more than likely have run out of oil before the reunification of Ireland so the definition of a country could go out the window by then anyway.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

Lets here the reason then. Do you believe that sectarian marches should take place in a tolerant state or not?

It seems to me that a tolerant state should, by definition, tolerate things.

If we're allowed to have nutcase Catholics parading outside the Dáil telling our politicians that they are hellbound sodomites for conceding some rights to gay couples, then yes: we should permit nutcase Protestants to witter on about a battle that rightly belongs in the history books.

oscarBravo

bigbadbear wrote: »

...do the people of the republic want to have the unionists?

There are some I wouldn't want in my country, no. But then, there are plenty of nationalists I wouldn't want in it either.

Wolfe Tone

bigbadbear wrote: »

As a proud Irishman I don't want anything to do with them filthy scumbags in the north. they can riot all they want and bend over for the queen for the rest of their days as far as I care.

Rubbish. No other word for that statement really.

This whole debate i think pivots around the main challenge of actually getting the people in the republic to accept the north. I would say 90% of people would vote no if it was debated in public. We all have an inbuilt urge to instantly say it would be wonderful to have UI but when you think about it do the people of the republic want to have the unionists? I reckon we don't keep them in the north and the republic remains much more Irish. Comes down to a mixture of greed and common sense.

Every survey ever has always had a large majority willing to accept the north.

Anyone who thinks it could happen in our lifetime is unfortunately living in dreamland.

In your opinion.

This is a side note and not intended to off topic the thread:
The world will more than likely have run out of oil before the reunification of Ireland so the definition of a country could go out the window by then anyway.

Why bring it up? There were countries before oil ya know. More rubbish.