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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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    #842
    Jaap
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭Jaap


    After witnessing the appalling rioting lastnight where there were many attempts to take the lives of police officers by people who claim to be nationalists I think even more people from southern Ireland will be repulsed by the idea of unification!!!
    Unifying with people who have a disregard for law and order...and who do it in the name of nationalism!!!
    There will never be a united Ireland...which I am happy to say!!! Though I would dearly love to see a united Northern Ireland!!! Despite the horrendous violence lastnight we still have some of the best and decent people around in Our Wee Country!!!


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    #843
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    Nothing stands still, improvements will be made to make this island function better, the sharing of resources, economically working better, etc. It's ridiculous to think there won't be more co-operation on an all-island basis. So I don't think you could rule out a new 32 county Ireland further down the line.


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    #844
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Jaap wrote: »
    After witnessing the appalling rioting lastnight where there were many attempts to take the lives of police officers by people who claim to be nationalists I think even more people from southern Ireland will be repulsed by the idea of unification!!!
    Unifying with people who have a disregard for law and order...and who do it in the name of nationalism!!!
    There will never be a united Ireland...which I am happy to say!!! Though I would dearly love to see a united Northern Ireland!!! Despite the horrendous violence lastnight we still have some of the best and decent people around in Our Wee Country!!!

    I don't think those nationalists will be attacking the Gardai in an united Ireland!!!

    How were you able to predict the future by saying there will never be an United Ireland?!!!


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    #845
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It seems to me that a tolerant state should, by definition, tolerate things.

    If we're allowed to have nutcase Catholics parading outside the Dáil telling our politicians that they are hellbound sodomites for conceding some rights to gay couples, then yes: we should permit nutcase Protestants to witter on about a battle that rightly belongs in the history books.

    Well, are those nutcases outside the Dail(note: not parading in a residential area) subversive to the state?


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    #846
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    When?

    When hell freezes over.

    How?

    By the aformentioned freezing of Hell




    I would like to have a united ireland, however its not possible due to the political situation, i dont think with the way european politica is going that it makes much of a difference who we pay our taxes to, the Queen or to Cowen.


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    #847
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gurramok wrote: »
    Well, are those nutcases outside the Dail(note: not parading in a residential area) subversive to the state?
    No. Are middle-aged gentlemen in bowler hats and orange sashes subversive to the state?


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    #848
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No. Are middle-aged gentlemen in bowler hats and orange sashes subversive to the state?

    Yes as they want an end to the Irish state, they want us ruled from Westminister.


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    #849
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I would be a bit worried if those potential Irish citizens got their wish and NI became part of this state. Large numbers of them are habituated in dealing the state in ways that are not conducive to good order, and I fear that they would keep those habits.

    I live in an area where a lot of visitors come from Northern Ireland. In all fairness, the vast, vast majority of people who come here just want a holiday, or to escape from the North on the 12th. That goes for people from both communities.

    I've only ever witnessed a problem once, and that was a touring coach full of young thugs, who thought it would be a good idea to terrorise five or six young lads in the local (small) village. Let's just say they underestimated how quickly the youth in surrounding areas could converge to rescue their friends............

    The point is, I'm not at all sure the attack was sectarian - it may have been, or it may have been pure thuggery - the point is, though, it was one isolated, albeit nasty incident.

    I would agree that there is an small minority element who like to think they are "hard men" - and that this minority would be both troublesome, and unwelcome. Having said that, I'm not sure that they should be allowed to spoil things for everyone else.
    getz wrote: »
    there are now 400,000 people living in the north who have taken out irish citizenship its not very hard to believe that 99% are republican catholics,as the chief constable on this mornings news said,this as with other incidents in the last few days ,was orchestrated, 83 police men and woman were injured[one policewoman is in a serous condition] the gardia has been working closely with the police,[passing on information] as far as why would the republic care about anyone in the north being a irish citizen ?.well i wouldent like anyone who has applied to be a citizen of my country who has a criminal record, if a irish citizen is in trouble,its up to the irish goverment to help them, and it also works the other way

    I wasn't aware that so many people had taken up Irish citizenship.

    However, apart from the Garda working with the PSNI, I don't see what more the Government can do, on a practical level? Or precisely how the Irish Government can be held responsible for events in Northern Ireland?

    It's not as if Dail Eireann suggested that rioting, or attacking the PSNI was a good idea, after all!

    Noreen


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    #850
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gurramok wrote: »
    I don't think those nationalists will be attacking the Gardai in an united Ireland!!!

    How were you able to predict the future by saying there will never be an United Ireland?!!!
    Oh really? A guard told me recently that young lads in a certain dublin flat complex threw all sorts of missiles at them including a microwave down a stairs...whilst shouting something along the lines of west brit bastards and other worse language.

    They're not nationalists.


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    #851
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh really? A guard told me recently that young lads in a certain dublin flat complex threw all sorts of missiles at them including a microwave down a stairs...whilst shouting something along the lines of west brit bastards and other worse language.

    They're not nationalists.

    I said Nationalists not crims and those crims who use nationalism as a cover for their activities.


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    #852
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No. Are middle-aged gentlemen in bowler hats and orange sashes subversive to the state?
    They are not simply middle aged men in bowler hats and orange sashes. You and I both know that. The way you have described them there makes them sound like a harmless group of people. Thats a very blassé way of describing them.


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    #853
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes as they want an end to the Irish state, they want us ruled from Westminister.
    As long as they are prepared to work to that end by constitutional and parliamentary means, good luck to them. It's not like it's gonna happen.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    They are not simply middle aged men in bowler hats and orange sashes. You and I both know that. The way you have described them there makes them sound like a harmless group of people. Thats a very blassé way of describing them.
    Meh. The good people of Donegal seem to consider their local Orangies pretty harmless. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by setting them up as evil bogeymen, other than to perpetuate divisions between communities.

    Ignore them and they'll get a hell of a lot less relevant in a hurry.


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    #854
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Every survey ever has always had a large majority willing to accept the north.

    The only such survey that matters is the general election and, at present, the only political party that has Irish unification high up on its agenda has a paltry 4 seats in Dáil Éireann. Both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael only pay lip-service to the question of unification, and I think that's a reasonable barometer of public opinion when you consider that both parties are populist.


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    #855
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Soldie wrote: »
    The only such survey that matters is the general election and, at present, the only political party that has Irish unification high up on its agenda has a paltry 4 seats in Dáil Éireann. Both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael only pay lip-service to the question of unification, and I think that's a reasonable barometer of public opinion when you consider that both parties are populist.

    Not one of them is against unification.


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    #856
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Meh. The good people of Donegal seem to consider their local Orangies pretty harmless. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by setting them up as evil bogeymen, other than to perpetuate divisions between communities.

    Ignore them and they'll get a hell of a lot less relevant in a hurry.

    Thats complete BS. Antagonism is not really as a result of the actual parades. It is as a result of what the parade means in Northern Ireland. The parades are the rub your noses in it time, for the economic and political superiority of the Protestant/British ethnic group in the Zero Sum game in Northern Ireland. Ignoring the parade will make no difference. It is the outward statement of protestant anti-catholic sectarianism in NI backed by a huge ethnic cleft that has been there since the ancient planter and Gael conflict.

    No offence but do you actually understand the conflict in NI?

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It seems to me that a tolerant state should, by definition, tolerate things.

    This isnt a very smart reply although you try to make it sound clever. Tolerant states do not tolerate everything: that is not the meaning. Tolerating intolerance is NOT tolerance as you would try to imply . Tolerating sectarian parades is therfore NOT tolerance. By doing this you are not tolerating a citizens right to practice a religion (a religion which doesnt interfere with anyone elses rights) without them or their religion being the target for sectarianism by another group.
    If we're allowed to have nutcase Catholics parading outside the Dáil telling our politicians that they are hellbound sodomites for conceding some rights to gay couples, then yes: we should permit nutcase Protestants to witter on about a battle that rightly belongs in the history books.

    The equivalent would be an annual anti-gay parade down every town in Ireland on a special anti-gay weekend every-year.

    I certainly dont agree with the point of view of any protesters outside the dail but they have the right to disagree with legislation if they wish.

    I take it from your reply that you feel that sectarian parades should be tolerated in NI.

    Again if you believe these protestants who are marching are nutcases you are underestimating them. Many are covenental protestants. They believe catholicism is wrong, they believe that anti-catholicism is just and right, they believe that Ulster was a promised land given to them by God.
    They believe that they are right to tell catholics for one special week during the year who is boss. In the workplace, on the street, in the bus stations ("why dont ye people stay down there?") and above all the orange parade the ultimate symbol of protestant domiantion and catholic supression.

    OO parades are not the whims of some nutcases. They are the embodyment of something far more real and sinsiter.


    I believe that the way forward for NI is to dismantle the sectarian structures and mechanisms that prolong the zero-sum ethnic divisions.


    There must be state secularism. The structures of education needs to be changed. e.g protestant ministers on the boards of all state schools making them de facto protestant schools and ensuring division and the continuation of the zero sum game.
    If you dismantle these permanent sectarian structures the clefts of division become less deep and there is hope.

    It may be then be a case that people are happy to stay in the UK .Maybe a cessation of the depth of ethnic division may remove a lot of fear and misconceptions of protestants to the people of the republic. (I would argue the remarkeable dearth of protestant holiday makers south as evidence of misconception). If so they may see an all island state with them having a heavy and positive influence as a place where they might after all be comfortable.

    Whatever the political outcome the structures of sectarianism that have prolonged the old conflict must be vigourously attacked. Ignoring them doesnt work as you seem to believe.


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    #857
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    gurramok wrote: »
    Not one of them is against unification.

    I never said that they were, so I have no idea why you felt the need to point that out. Did you intend to reply to someone else?


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    #858
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Soldie wrote: »
    I never said that they were, so I have no idea why you felt the need to point that out. Did you intend to reply to someone else?

    No you had mentioned lip service, i don't believe those parties are paying lip service.


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    #859
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    gurramok wrote: »
    No you had mentioned lip service, i don't believe those parties are paying lip service.

    Are you suggesting that Irish unification is a primary issue for both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil? If so, what are Fianna Fáil doing to further the cause of unification?


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    #860
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Laughably FF call themselves the Republican Party. It is a stated aim of course.


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    #861
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Soldie wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that Irish unification is a primary issue for both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil? If so, what are Fianna Fáil doing to further the cause of unification?

    Other than spending money on roads up north, all political parties here furthered unification under the GFA, none were against it.


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    #862
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    gurramok wrote: »
    Other than spending money on roads up north, all political parties here furthered unification under the GFA, none were against it.

    Neither Fine Gael nor Fianna Fáil are organised in Northern Ireland, nor do either party have anything on their website's issues page pertaining to a united Ireland, so I think it's reasonable to say that in calling themselves "The United Ireland Party" and "The Republican Party", respectively, they're only paying lip service to the question of Irish unification.


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    #863
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Here's a suggestion to end the controversy surrounding Orange Order marches. The OO can march anywhere throughout Northern Ireland if they want to. In return Catholics will be allowed to establish Fenian lodges and parade through predominantly Protestant areas with images of Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Bobby Sands displayed on huge banners while being led by the Irish Defence Forces Marching Band playing Amhrán na bhFiann.

    Seriously though, the Orange Order needs to begin to engage with the Nationalist community and respect their wishes of not marching in their communities. Perhaps in a few years down the line this could be changed but for now the wishes of a community should be acknowledged.

    There is a fundamental lack of respect for each sides culture and traditions. Like somebody mentioned earlier Orange Parades take place in Donegal every year without incidence. I, myself, have friends in the Orange Order who are friendly and decent people. To them it's not about being anti-Catholic but about the expression of their unique identity and culture, although they did admit to me that quite a few in the order are fervently anti-Catholic. I still don't like the Order as an institution but perhaps in time the Order can get rid of it's sectarian baggage and future marches can be respected by all people on the island as a expression of Ulster-Scots heritage in the same way that St. Patricks Day parades today are an expression of Irish culture.


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    #864
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #865
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    There is a simple explanation why there is little controversy in Dún na nGall, that is not part of the British controlled state, has not suffered injustices at the hands of an Orange state, those parades in that location have little present day relevance. Unlike the contentious ones.


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    #866
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Why should they turn a blind eye?


    If the parades could simply march were they are wanted none of this would happen every year.


    Do you think it is fair that a march like those of the OO are allowed to march through an area who do not want the to?


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    #867
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #868
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Care to address the other two points?


    So, although the residents object to a sectarian, bigoted, anti-Catholic(bearing in mind what "catholic" means in the 6) march, they should do it anyway? How is that fair? That the roads should be closed, and everything disrupted? This is not just a "parade" it is a gloating, rubbing in of nationalists place in society.


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    #869
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #870
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    That sounds like a pretty rubbish society to me.

    It is not realistic to say "turn the other cheek". You simply cant. How can you ignore the actions of an organisation which unionist government representatives are in?

    So what do you think the best solution is then?


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    #871
    IPRIreland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭IPRIreland


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Lazer accurate in my book.


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