When & How could there be a united Ireland?

Notorious97

getz wrote: »

you have not reconized the real problems why at this moment you cannot have a united ireland,1 the union, 2 unemployment, 3 no NHS, 4 catholic control of schools hospitals ect, 5 the republic would be bankrupt overnight, and 100,000s would have to leave ireland for work [like the last time,] anyway thats how i see it

No I agree, the country is in ruins, i was more just going on about if it wasnt as bad, should have made it cleaer sorry

P. Breathnach

I agree broadly with what Noreen says, and add the following comment: people who advocate anything for NI, be it to strengthen the union or to move towards some form of Irish unity, reinforce the fears and prejudices of at least one section of the community.

In my opinion, the best thing that could be done for NI is to park the "constitutional question" for at least 50 years. Let the people there get on with sorting out a modus vivendi.

getz

Notorious97 wrote: »

No I agree, the country is in ruins, i was more just going on about if it wasnt as bad, should have made it cleaer sorry

on a more possitive note,other countries have managed to get by the problems,cyprus[democratic divided republic] a EU member,and china ,one goverment two systems, i am not for one moment saying thats the way for ireland to go, but they both realized and excepted,it had to be a bit of give and take.

Wolfe Tone

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I agree broadly with what Noreen says, and add the following comment: people who advocate anything for NI, be it to strengthen the union or to move towards some form of Irish unity, reinforce the fears and prejudices of at least one section of the community.

In my opinion, the best thing that could be done for NI is to park the "constitutional question" for at least 50 years. Let the people there get on with sorting out a modus vivendi.

Many feel that the current "peace"(there is still a lot of problems, only a matter of time before one of the dissidents bombing efforts succeeds, last night there were large riots also, PSNI member shot) that exists in the North is only a stopgap. Many have accepted that political action is getting results, while others, dissidents included, have not as they see it only as a momentary stopgap. I cannot help but feel that there will come a point when political action will no longer be seen as making progress, or that progress will be seen as being too slow.


I don't feel that the current system in the 6 counties is a permanent solution, or one that will continue for that long.

P. Breathnach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Many feel that the current "peace"(there is still a lot of problems, only a matter of time before one of the dissidents bombing efforts succeeds, last night there were large riots also, PSNI member shot) that exists in the North is only a stopgap. Many have accepted that political action is getting results, while others, dissidents included, have not as they see it only as a momentary stopgap. I cannot help but feel that there will come a point when political action will no longer be seen as making progress, or that progress will be seen as being too slow.


I don't feel that the current system in the 6 counties is a permanent solution, or one that will continue for that long.

I look at your sig, and wonder what you mean by "progress". If you mean progress towards a united Ireland, then I think you are part of the problem.

My hope for NI is that politics there can be normalised, and politicians become more engaged with questions about jobs and roads and hospitals and schools than with the maintenance or the abolition of the union. That is my idea of progress.

getz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Many feel that the current "peace"(there is still a lot of problems, only a matter of time before one of the dissidents bombing efforts succeeds, last night there were large riots also, PSNI member shot) that exists in the North is only a stopgap. Many have accepted that political action is getting results, while others, dissidents included, have not as they see it only as a momentary stopgap. I cannot help but feel that there will come a point when political action will no longer be seen as making progress, or that progress will be seen as being too slow.


I don't feel that the current system in the 6 counties is a permanent solution, or one that will continue for that long.

i agree with what you said,but i am more of a optimist ,as i go to belfast i cannot help but notice that there are less sectarian paintings on walls and more george best ect slogans,with more of the younger generation traveling the world the more they see how crazy it is to hate others,i was around in the 60s in london,working in a pub in ladbrook grove during the race riots, with the many west indians and racism at that time,what i believe that changed peoples racist views over the years was sport,young kids in england now worship black footballers/boxers/athletes,if ever all ireland could get its act together in sport then the next generation will be irish first and formost

Wolfe Tone

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I look at your sig, and wonder what you mean by "progress". If you mean progress towards a united Ireland, then I think you are part of the problem.

My hope for NI is that politics there can be normalised, and politicians become more engaged with questions about jobs and roads and hospitals and schools than with the maintenance or the abolition of the union. That is my idea of progress.

Not solely towards a UI, the things you listed, and others too.



So those who want a UI are part of the "problem"? Those who are for the union are also part of the "problem". Both will have to be part of the solution.

I do not believe that the current system will be a permanent one.(solution)

I agree with what you said,but i am more of a optimist ,as i go to belfast i cannot help but notice that there are less sectarian paintings on walls and more george best ect slogans,with more of the younger generation traveling the world the more they see how crazy it is to hate others,i was around in the 60s in london,working in a pub in ladbrook grove during the race riots, with the many west indians and racism at that time,what i believe that changed peoples racist views over the years was sport,young kids in england now worship black footballers/boxers/athletes,if ever all ireland could get its act together in sport then the next generation will be irish first and formost

I am quite an optimist too, I hope a solution can be found that will lead to peace and a fair inclusive society, one which is no longer divided. I don't think the current system will lead to that.

P. Breathnach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

...
So those who want a UI are part of the "problem"? Those who are for the union are also part of the "problem". Both will have to be part of the solution.

Everybody who puts the constitutional status of NI at the top of the agenda is part of the problem (and yes, I recognise that by that criterion most people in NI politics are part of the problem). I don't expect that any unionist will suddenly pretend not to be a unionist, nor any nationalist will abandon nationalism. But what I would love to see emerge is that an individual's unionism or nationalism is as obvious and as relevant has hair colour - something that recognised, but does not dominate all political discussion and action.

I do not believe that the current system will be a permanent one.(solution)

The problem is that I cannot envisage another system that has any better prospects. That's why I would hope that the question be parked for a long time.

getz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Not solely towards a UI, the things you listed, and others too.



So those who want a UI are part of the "problem"? Those who are for the union are also part of the "problem". Both will have to be part of the solution.

I do not believe that the current system will be a permanent one.(solution)



I am quite an optimist too, I hope a solution can be found that will lead to peace and a fair inclusive society, one which is no longer divided. I don't think the current system will lead to that.

remember one first step and all that,in 1968 one of my shotokan teachers was from okinawa,the only english sentence he could say was,there is more to a duck ,than feathers and a quack,[dont ask me]

Ren2k7

The rioting in Belfast last night has demonstrated that Northern Ireland still has some way to go before the old hatreds and animosities of the past can be put aside. Some are saying that the constitutional question should be put aside for now and deal with local issues (health, education, jobs, etc) but the issue of the union is still a very emotive topic for many people and will inevitably flare up every so often, usually around July the 12th so dealing with the issues that should matter like what I mentioned above is going to be very difficult.

The whole "Catholic against Protestants" issue along with rampant anti-southern sentiment from unionists crops up into just about every matter in the north these days. When the Republic offered £400 million to improve the A5 connecting the N2 in the south with Derry, Unionist mouthpiece Jim Allister claimed:

I do not see why the best of working farms, which have been the livelihoods of families for generations, have to be sacrificed to give travellers from Dublin swift transport to Donegal, particularly when no business case has been presented to justify such. When politics drives such matters then the result is frequently flawed.

and when discussing the Dungiven bypass said:

Likewise, I am appalled by the route suggested for the Dungiven bypass. Here a wider sweep around the town than necessary has been taken, resulting in the truncating of several farms. Is this in order to avoid the more direct route which would disrupt the GAA facilities? I suspect it is and that, again, the political direction of the department is playing its part in choosing to destroy some Protestant farms in order to preserve the GAA facilities. This is not how it should be.

source:http://www.jimallister.org/default.asp?blogID=1798

It's these sorts of remarks that dont belong in the 21st century, just like Jim Allister really. Granted he's an extreme case but it's unfortunate for a politician like him to get such a large share of the vote in the recent UK general election.

These problems need to be dealt with head on today rather than dodging them and hoping they go away because they won't. I would hate to think that in 50 years from now we will still be having this discussion.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Out of curiosity, is there any possibility of a Roman Catholic majority in the 2011 census?

I'm aware that not all Catholics are Nationalists and not all Protestants are Unionists, incidentally.

Jaap

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The whole "Catholic against Protestants" issue along with rampant anti-southern sentiment from unionists crops up into just about every matter in the north these days. When the Republic offered £400 million to improve the A5 connecting the N2 in the south with Derry, Unionist mouthpiece Jim Allister claimed: and when discussing the Dungiven bypass said:
source:http://www.jimallister.org/default.asp?blogID=1798

It's these sorts of remarks that dont belong in the 21st century, just like Jim Allister really. Granted he's an extreme case but it's unfortunate for a politician like him to get such a large share of the vote in the recent UK general election.

Not all unionists have an "anti-southern sentiment"...infact many unionists holiday down south as they know 99% of the people of the Republic don't really care about the poltics and religious issues in Northern Ireland!!! It is a haven to get away from orange and green views / opinions!!!...where people don't care where you are from!!!

As for Jim Allister getting a large share of the vote in the recent UK general election...what UK election were you watching???...his party the TUV didn't get a seat and he himself was easily beaten by Ian Paisley Junior for the North Antrim seat!!!

hotmail.com

The Orange marches are a symbol of division. The parades themselves are pretty awful - lots of middle aged and elderly men wearing orange costumes marching up a road. The people that watch these parades can't possibly enjoy this? I doubt they do, but it's simply to say I'm Protestant. It's quite shameful really.

There is a vast difference between Protestants living in the North and Protestants living in England. Tolerance is constantly promoted as a feature of Britishness, Northern Ireland Protestants couldn't be further from tolerant.

I'm not a SF supporter or a big supporter of a united Ireland or anything, I just find it alarming the amount of people that attend these hatred fuelled marches.

Wolfe Tone

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Orange marches are a symbol of division. The parades themselves are pretty awful - lots of middle aged and elderly men wearing orange costumes marching up a road. The people that watch these parades can't possibly enjoy this? I doubt they do, but it's simply to say I'm Protestant. It's quite shameful really.

There is a vast difference between Protestants living in the North and Protestants living in England. Tolerance is constantly promoted as a feature of Britishness, Northern Ireland Protestants couldn't be further from tolerant.

I'm not a SF supporter or a big supporter of a united Ireland or anything, I just find it alarming the amount of people that attend these hatred fuelled marches.

Exactly, these marches are a disgusting display of triumphalism, sectarianism and serve simply as an excuse to celebrate the victory, and dominance, past and current, of protestantism/unionism(the OO have hijacked the religion). They insist to march were they are not wanted for those reasons. Every year they provoke a mass exodus of people from the north. Southern hotels wont be complaining of course.

Livvie

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The two juristictions, Northern Ireland and the Republic to be unified under a single government with authority over the entire island but as part of a dual monarchy with Great Britain with the queen as Irelands head of state. .

Can't see that happening at all.

I hope that in time we can develop emotional bonds and a special relationship, but Ireland is a separate nation now, and all the more unique for that.

After everything you fought for, it would be a backward step.

LordSutch

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Orange marches are a symbol of division. The parades themselves are pretty awful - lots of middle aged and elderly men wearing orange costumes marching up a road. The people that watch these parades can't possibly enjoy this? I doubt they do, but it's simply to say I'm Protestant. It's quite shameful really.

I get the impression that the marches have become even more important to the Orange tradition up North simply because they perceive their 'Orangeism' to be under constant threat (which is probably true). I am not a supporter of the tradition myself, "but that's their thing", in the same way as the Shinners march with their own brand of pipe bands & black garb (black barrets & sun glasses inc).

hotmail.com wrote: »

There is a vast difference between Protestants living in the North and Protestants living in England. Tolerance is constantly promoted as a feature of Britishness, Northern Ireland Protestants couldn't be further from tolerant.

Firstly, lets not equate Orangism with Protestantism, there are many tens of thousands of protestants both North & South on this island who are not of the Orange tradition! and as regards English Protestants, thats a whole different ball game, in the same way as English RCs are very different from the Irish variety, but certainly there are many Northern Irish Protestants who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Orange Order.

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm not a SF supporter or a big supporter of a united Ireland or anything, I just find it alarming the amount of people that attend these hatred fuelled marches.

The 'hate' is on both sides, and don't forget that 99% of the trouble this year (petrol bombs, stones, bricks) has been orchestrated & aimed at the police, not by the Orange parades, but by Republican/Nationalist supporters who wish to stamp out the Orange Order on this island.

P.S. Looking at the video clip below, I don't know how anybody thinks the two sides are going to Unite anytime soon.

RIOTING VIDEO > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100713/video/vuk-riots-at-orange-parade-spark-police-37e89e1.html

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

The 'hate' is on both sides, and don't forget that 99% of the trouble this year (petrol bombs, stones, bricks) has been orchestrated & aimed at the police, not by the Orange parades, but by Republican/Nationalist supporters who wish to stamp out the Orange Order on this island.

P.S. Looking at the video clip below, I don't know how anybody thinks the two sides are going to Unite anytime soon.

RIOTING VIDEO > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100713/video/vuk-riots-at-orange-parade-spark-police-37e89e1.html

You were going well until you reached this part "Republican/Nationalist supporters who wish to stamp out the Orange Order on this island."

Nothing to do with that. They can march wherever they are welcome hence their 'culture' flourishes. They should not be allowed to march where they are not welcome, thats the cause of the violence.

getz

gurramok wrote: »

You were going well until you reached this part "Republican/Nationalist supporters who wish to stamp out the Orange Order on this island."

Nothing to do with that. They can march wherever they are welcome hence their 'culture' flourishes. They should not be allowed to march where they are not welcome, thats the cause of the violence.

you know what the sad thing is ? most of these throwing petrol bombs and attacking the police are now irish citizens,i wonder if the goverment of the republic will take responsibility for their actions

Noreen1

getz wrote: »

you know what the sad thing is ? most of these throwing petrol bombs and attacking the police are now irish citizens,i wonder if the goverment of the republic will take responsibility for their actions

Ahem. How do you know how many, if any, of those involved have taken up Irish citizenship?

Secondly, why would the Irish Government take responsibility for their actions?

Noreen

Sleepy

The marches and the reactions to them are proof positive of nothing more than the childishness of both sides.

P. Breathnach

Noreen1 wrote: »

Ahem. How do you know how many, if any, of those involved have taken up Irish citizenship?

Secondly, why would the Irish Government take responsibility for their actions?

I would be a bit worried if those potential Irish citizens got their wish and NI became part of this state. Large numbers of them are habituated in dealing the state in ways that are not conducive to good order, and I fear that they would keep those habits.

Jaap

gurramok wrote: »

You were going well until you reached this part "Republican/Nationalist supporters who wish to stamp out the Orange Order on this island."

Nothing to do with that. They can march wherever they are welcome hence their 'culture' flourishes. They should not be allowed to march where they are not welcome, thats the cause of the violence.

There was rioting all over Northern Ireland yesterday...in Lurgan rioters attacked a train travelling to Dublin...what has that got to do with a march???

There was rioting at the Ormeau Bridge...the Orange Order are not allowed to march down that road anymore and protesters to parading still riot there...what is that about???

Hoods (they were from the Nationalist side, but I wouldn't call them nationalists...hoods more like) were hell bent in causing trouble yesterday...and attacking police!!!

As for the "supposed" controversial Ardoyne parade...God help the few residents of that area who have to put up with hoods (probably not even from the area) turning the Ardoyne shopfront in to a warzone...just because the hoods don't work, are bored and were probably brought up where they only know sectarian hatred and how to attack the police who were caught in the middle!!!

These hoods should have their photos printed on every newspaper...they should be arrested by the police....and their dole money taken away from them and used to foot the policing and cleaning up bill!!!

getz

Noreen1 wrote: »

Ahem. How do you know how many, if any, of those involved have taken up Irish citizenship?

Secondly, why would the Irish Government take responsibility for their actions?

Noreen

there are now 400,000 people living in the north who have taken out irish citizenship its not very hard to believe that 99% are republican catholics,as the chief constable on this mornings news said,this as with other incidents in the last few days ,was orchestrated, 83 police men and woman were injured[one policewoman is in a serous condition] the gardia has been working closely with the police,[passing on information] as far as why would the republic care about anyone in the north being a irish citizen ?.well i wouldent like anyone who has applied to be a citizen of my country who has a criminal record, if a irish citizen is in trouble,its up to the irish goverment to help them, and it also works the other way

Jaap

getz wrote: »

there are now 400,000 people living in the north who have taken out irish citizenship its not very hard to believe that 99% are republican catholics,as the chief constable on this mornings news said,this as with other incidents in the last few days ,was orchestrated, 83 police men and woman were injured[one policewoman is in a serous condition] the gardia has been working closely with the police,[passing on information] as far as why would the republic care about anyone in the north being a irish citizen ?.well i wouldent like anyone who has applied to be a citizen of my country who has a criminal record, if a irish citizen is in trouble,its up to the irish goverment to help them, and it also works the other way

A good suggestion!!! Why should the British taxpayer be made to pay for the clean-up and policing operation for riots organised and performed by people who claim to be Irish nationals???
If they are arrested (which is a very slim chance) can the UK not deport them to the Republic????

Wolfe Tone

Dozens of marches take place every year with no violence at all. It is only a handful which are contentious. These contentious marches should either be banned, or rerouted. That is the only solution.
Their organizers are unwilling to engage with SF, the neighborhoods, or even the parades commission. Every year, nationalists in affected areas are effectively besieged by security forces and orange men. The communities do not want these marches.

gurramok

Jaap wrote: »

There was rioting all over Northern Ireland yesterday...in Lurgan rioters attacked a train travelling to Dublin...what has that got to do with a march???

There was rioting at the Ormeau Bridge...the Orange Order are not allowed to march down that road anymore and protesters to parading still riot there...what is that about???

Hoods (they were from the Nationalist side, but I wouldn't call them nationalists...hoods more like) were hell bent in causing trouble yesterday...and attacking police!!!

As for the "supposed" controversial Ardoyne parade...God help the few residents of that area who have to put up with hoods (probably not even from the area) turning the Ardoyne shopfront in to a warzone...just because the hoods don't work, are bored and were probably brought up where they only know sectarian hatred and how to attack the police who were caught in the middle!!!

These hoods should have their photos printed on every newspaper...they should be arrested by the police....and their dole money taken away from them and used to foot the policing and cleaning up bill!!!

I'm surprised you do not know why the rioting spread. Solidarity with Ardoyne was probably the reason. The PSNI forced people from the road to cater for the Orange parade and that does not go down well as it has echoes of Garvaghy in 1998.

I'm also very surprised that you have the welfare of Ardoyne residents in your mind.

LordSutch

gurramok wrote: »

The PSNI forced people from the road to cater for the Orange parade and that does not go down well as it has echoes of Garvaghy in 1998.

I was under the impression that the Parades commission gave the 'Go ahead' for the Ardoyne march, hence the Police quite correctly clearing the way for the parade. I just hope & pray that the WPC (hit with a concrete slab) is OK and makes a full recovery. Objecting to a Parade/March is one thing, but petrol bombing & stoning the Police is quite another, and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. The PSNI are too soft IMO.

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

I was under the impression that the Parades commission gave the 'Go ahead' for the Ardoyne march, hence the Police quite correctly clearing the way for the parade. I just hope & pray that the WPC (hit with a concrete slab) is OK and makes a full recovery. Objecting to a Parade/March is one thing, but petrol bombing & stoning the Police is quite another, and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. The PSNI are too soft IMO.

Heavens knows why they keep granting permission that parade and yet there is violence every year. If the PSNI were harder, it will draw a harder response from the rioters and draw more people to go against them. They were proportionate in the response as they have to tread carefully not to be seen as supporting one side over the other.

We'll know next year what the story is as the Parade's Commission will be disbanded and decisions will be made upon what the SF&DUP joint working committee decide.

The Orange Order is against the SF&DUP working committee, thats a signal they do not want their parades to pass off peacefully.

LordSutch

gurramok wrote: »

The Orange Order is against the SF&DUP working committee, thats a signal they do not want their parades to pass off peacefully.

Why would the Orange Order not want their Parades to pass off peacefully? surely they don't want rocks & missiles hurled in their direction? please explain your theory.

P. Breathnach

Camelot wrote: »

Why would the Orange Order not want their Parades to pass off peacefully? surely they don't want rocks & missiles hurled in their direction? please explain your theory.

With the exception of the inevitable lunatic fringe of the sort that attaches itself to every grouping, I'm sure that the OO want their parades to pass off peacefully. Even when they march through places where there is a nationalist majority who might be pissed off by their presence.